Is "Some" Microgaming Casinos becoming

[RobWin]

Well they can do whatever they want but NO BODY has the right just to hold onto your money for 6 MONTHS !!

 

[mishun]

Jetset was the only person to raise a VERY valid point, and no one has picked up on it..



And then included in Michuns message



The only place 6 months comes into play with ECOGRA is the 6 month self exclusion request. If you requested to be excluded for 6 months on one of their other brands due to a gambling problem, then they are right to block this account if the 6 month period is still active. But, in my opinion, they should return the balance of your account to you if you request it. But thats just my 1 cents worth..

No I have not asked to be excluded. Remember my account was in 2006. Its now Feb, 2008 any 6 month exclusion would have been over with (twice). Its was risk management decision to withhold my deposit once I told them I would consider a chargeback.

 

[c_note]

Sigh

Mishun, Thanks for confirming that. And now we know exactly why they are holding onto your deposit for 6 months.

If you threaten a casino with a chargeback, you can almost take it for granted that they will lock your account and hold onto your money until that 6 month period is up. It's 6 months because that is the average time most banks will allow to pass from the date of a deposit till a chargeback can still be requested. The ONLY way a casino can prevent a chargeback is to refund the original deposits, and Visa/MasterCard impose very strict limits on how much can be refunded (up until very recently, Mastercard deposits could not be refunded at all. Now they can be, but it is a huge process to get to the stage where you can actually perform the refunds).

If they give you the money via another method, there is nothing preventing you from then charging back through your bank. So the casino winds up being nailed for the money they sent you, your original deposit and the chargeback fees at between $20 and $100 per transaction. And if you are a VIP with tons of transactions (or just have lots of $20 deposits), charging back can cost the casino their rights to accept credit & debit cards (and tens of thousands of dollars in additional fines from Visa & MasterCard)

I am not saying what the casino is doing in this case (up until the chargeback threat) was right. I am just telling you that if you cry wolf and threaten chargebacks (even if the reason for the chargeback is valid), the casinos will consider you as a potentially very hostile and expensive business risk, and treat you as such.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This chargeback risk is undoubtedly the reason for this 6 month hold. There IS, however, a problem with this. A rogue casino could simply stall for 6 months with this, and then CONFISCATE THE DEPOSIT ANYWAY!
Because of the torrent of player screw-overs that have been happening of late, there is now far less trust between player and casino than there was in the past.
The "multiple account" business is bollox, and coming from eCogra I am shocked!!! This player ADMITS that they had an old account from 2006, and was caught out by this "group" rule introduced more recently, there really is no need for this "security reasons" BS being used as a means to wriggle out of trying to sort this out.
This player clearly "wants out" of online gambling altogether, and does not need to be hanging around for 6 months to sort out this issue. This ruling has made it far more likely that a chargeback will be actioned simply to get out of waiting 6 months for what will be, in effect, the exact same result, and without the need to jump through ID and document hoops in 6 months time. Indeed, after 6 more months of UIGEA, will it even be POSSIBLE for Grand Prive to refund the deposit?

Casinos are VERY VERY AFRAID of the "chargeback", this is probably the strongest weapon in the player's arsenal, however, once used, that player will be most likely barred from EVER being able to play online again.

 

[c_note]

UIGEA & Refunds

Indeed, after 6 more months of UIGEA, will it even be POSSIBLE for Grand Prive to refund the deposit?

Casinos have been unable to refund deposits for a few years now. UIGEA had nothing to do with casinos being unable to refund. Every now and then, a Casino can find a loophole or willing bank and do it, but it does not last for long. Those using tier 1 banks for processing can do it legit (Its called OFT or CFT), but not to US or Canadian cards thanks to visa/MC Regulations. If Grand Prive could refund the transaction now, then this would have happened. Since they cannot, they are sitting on it till they feel safe.

Casinos are VERY VERY AFRAID of the "chargeback", this is probably the strongest weapon in the player's arsenal, however, once used, that player will be most likely barred from EVER being able to play online again.

It does not need to be used. As with Mishuns case, It just needs to be threatened. Its like carrying a knife in the street. If you pull it out, make sure you need to use it and the person (casino) you will use it on is not carrying a gun (global negative database, black lists and more).

A rogue casino could simply stall for 6 months with this, and then CONFISCATE THE DEPOSIT ANYWAY!

Yep, they will, they wont even need the threat of chargeback to do it. They just close your account, invoke the "Management Says bye bye" rule, and stops responding to your emails. THATS when you should be charging back. Some banks only give you 1 month (or 1 statement period) to chargeback on, some give you 2 years. 6 Months is about average.

 

[maxd]

From what I've been able to gather there's a little more to this situation. For instance the casino/eCOGRA report that:

- there is direct evidence linking this player to other accounts.
- the player has flatly refused to provide necessary identification documents.
- the player has made threats and been abusive toward casino/eCOGRA service people. (I've seen some of this material and if someone behaved that way toward me they'd be out the door on the tip of my boot, no questions asked.)
- the casino reports that there is a high risk of charge backs associated with her account.

Why would they lock her account and then re-open it after 6 months? Because they deemed her a high risk and had no intention of letting her take the initiative in the deposit/charge-back game.

 

[Casinomeister]

I think Mishun needs to be a little more upfront with us. I just did a quick check on her IP and it matches several other members here who have been banned. One member for being a fraudster.

 

[jetset]

Once again, things are perhaps not as they initially were claimed to be....further clarification from Mishun would be interesting.

 

[Mousey]

Oh dear... Mishun, what's the whole story??

Max... did they mean linked to other accounts in her own name at their other casinos, or did they mean multiple accounts (fraud?).

We try so hard to keep the casinos toeing the line and playing straight w/players. And then we have greedy/desperate players proving the exception to the rule that most players are just your everyday Joe/Sue looking for a fair game for their $25.

 

[maxd]

Max... did they mean linked to other accounts in her own name at their other casinos, or did they mean multiple accounts (fraud?).

I can't speak for them (casino/eCOGRA) in detail because I don't have that kind of information but I believe it was the latter that was at issue here. And that's why the refusal to supply proper ID was a particularly relevant.

I think your comment about players and casinos is very important: yes, casinos are sometimes crooked and slimy but players are often guilty of the same thing. The problem is the power balance: casinos hold the cash and that puts them in the position to dictate terms. Players have ... sites like us and that's not quite the same thing is it? That said, players play dirty too and it's important not to forget that, and not be obsessed by it either.

PS. Love your quote, "Everyone gets everything he wants ....", one of my all time favourite movies. And I loved "Redux", go figure.

 

[GaryWatson]

Nice one mishun

Is it any wonder sites often take a harsh stance on innocent individuals

 

[Casinomeister]

I AGREE 100% VWM. Belle Rock pulled the same stunt on me. I played at Lucky Nugget back in sept. I deposited $50 and got the $200. I met wager requirement and cashed out $2200+ I was denied without reason. Bare in Mind before the USA Ban. I was a 5 year affiliate of Belle Rock

Andre: Our records indicates that your casino account was locked last year September and your $50 deposit was refunded back to you
tln10XXXXXXr: yea but why?
tln10XXXXXXr: i never gotten a reason
Andre: No reason has been given. As per the terms and conditions of Belle Rock Entertainment no reason needs to be given
Andre: When you registered your account, you acknowledged that the Casino is not obliged to give you prior notice of its decision to refuse, deregister or exclude or suspend you, nor to furnish you with any reasons for such decision.

This whole group of casinos is on my RIP List!

I think I found your PAB. This is from September

Casino Name Lucky Nugget
Casino url

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Username or Account tln10XXXXXXr
Who has been contacted: Lucky Nugget
The problem: I am still having trouble get my payout. I was informed that my payout was refused and the decision was final. I was paid via my Gaming Club account without any problem upon submitting my state drivers license and bank statement

And this excerpt

) I have been an affiliate for the past 6 yrs with Belle Rock. 2) My Gaming Club account which was opened a few days earlier than Lucky Nugget was paid out without any problems.

So what's going on?

 

[Casinomeister]

Oh, I guess I should add that the PAB is from a player who was banned form the forum in October for player fraud (submitting bogus IDs and being connected to other players).

The banned member and Mishun share identical IP addresses. And they so happen to share the IPs of two other members who have been banned for either making abusive posts or for bogus accounts in the forum. There are a few other connecting factors, and this doesn't bode well with me.

Should I dig a bit deeper?

 

[Casinomeister]

And as I begin to dig, I'm turning over a few yucky stones. Some bizzaro stuff I'm finding.

I'll fill everyone in a little later.

By the way, some of you should not be so swift in jumping in on a casino bash fest - wait until all the cows come home before passing judgement. You'll feel like a plateful of crow later

How 'bout dem animals

 

[Mousey]

And as I begin to dig, I'm turning over a few yucky stones. Some bizzaro stuff I'm finding.

I'll fill everyone in a little later.

By the way, some of you should not be so swift in jumping in on a casino bash fest - wait until all the cows come home before passing judgement. You'll feel like a plateful of crow later

How 'bout dem animals

I love puzzles. Even yucky ones. Keep us filled in.

Crow? A dash of A-1 sauce and a side salad, please. I have a knee jerk reaction to GP, which I try to control. Sometimes, the emotional reaction is quicker than the brain cells. --but it does make quite a difference when we know the whole story.

 

[jetset]

I can't speak for them (casino/eCOGRA) in detail because I don't have that kind of information but I believe it was the latter that was at issue here. And that's why the refusal to supply proper ID was a particularly relevant.

I think your comment about players and casinos is very important: yes, casinos are sometimes crooked and slimy but players are often guilty of the same thing. The problem is the power balance: casinos hold the cash and that puts them in the position to dictate terms. Players have ... sites like us and that's not quite the same thing is it? That said, players play dirty too and it's important not to forget that, and not be obsessed by it either.

PS. Love your quote, "Everyone gets everything he wants ....", one of my all time favourite movies. And I loved "Redux", go figure.

Well said - there's nothing wrong with trying for a fair and balanced view, and this site has earned a lot of respect from the majority of folks involved in online gambling by consistently trying to do exactly that.

It's easy to take an immediate position on one "side" or the other, but keeping an open mind and being realistic are valuable virtues - as we have seen in the past things are not always as they are initially portrayed.

 

[Casinomeister]

Yep it's a fraudster

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

 

[GaryWatson]

Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy"

I love you Mister Meister, I think you're so SEXY!

Strange indeed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

A sex change too


Maybe this involved a degree of affiliate fraud too, not just multiple account fraud. The referral payments would give some insurance against being busted by the casino, provided the player was patient. I suspect this because of the comments about having been an affiliate for some years, even to the extent that it was 6 years a while ago, yet is now only 5 years - looks like figures plucked out of thin air.
It might be worth having a closer look at the other BelleRock issues that have appeared recently, maybe there is some connection - perhaps a whoring site, or a number of players who have spotted a glitch in their systems that works to their advantage ( and BelleRock certainy have no shortage of system glitches at present, mostly AGAINST the player though).

 

[suzecat]

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

Hey Bryan! This is exactly why we keep you around!:notworthy

......by the by............don't know if you're sexy.........sure your wife thinks so.......

 

[Nifty29]

Yup - if I was a woman I would do him.

Mind you, Im not sure thats a ringing endorsement.....