Is internet gambling 'doomed'?

H1_Roller

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Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Location
...
With all the Casino and Poker room closures, and banning (US) and so on (no need to go into too much detail because we're all aware), is the long-term future of internet gambling doomed?

I mean, with many casinos now struggling to turn a profit, and many others simply closing altogether, do you think we'll see an increase in 'Rogue' behaviour? (I refuse to use the American spelling of 'behavior', by the way, regardless of my spell-check screaming at me like a furious prefect ;)).

If the odd casino here and there begin to tighten up, refuse bonuses, refuse withdrawals (citing 'newly written' rules), could players become disillusioned and just stop playing, leading to more erratic and desperate antics from more casinos, resulting in even more players abandoning them, and so on and so forth; the domino effect, I guess it's called?

We non-US players are very lucky at the minute, but there is a snowball at the top of a huge mountain, gradually rolling down and getting bigger and bigger... These are worrying times for the long-term, don't you think?
 

Cleveland

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Jun 15, 2011
Location
Texas
I think it's to big of a possible market with internet gambling and some body will tap into it. Not everyone lives near a B&M and making it available online opens up the doors to so many more customers.

I'm guessing someone even if it's a B&M deciding to open up an online extension of itself will continue to pursue the online possibilities. Allowing your customers to gamble in their undies while drinking some vodka or rum is just to much of a great marketing opportunity to pass up....yea i went there :D
 

gid88

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Aug 26, 2010
Location
Australia
With all the Casino and Poker room closures, and banning (US) and so on (no need to go into too much detail because we're all aware), is the long-term future of internet gambling doomed?

I mean, with many casinos now struggling to turn a profit, and many others simply closing altogether, do you think we'll see an increase in 'Rogue' behaviour? (I refuse to use the American spelling of 'behavior', by the way, regardless of my spell-check screaming at me like a furious prefect ;)).

If the odd casino here and there begin to tighten up, refuse bonuses, refuse withdrawals (citing 'newly written' rules), could players become disillusioned and just stop playing, leading to more erratic and desperate antics from more casinos, resulting in even more players abandoning them, and so on and so forth; the domino effect, I guess it's called?

We non-US players are very lucky at the minute, but there is a snowball at the top of a huge mountain, gradually rolling down and getting bigger and bigger... These are worrying times for the long-term, don't you think?

I don't think it's "doomed" per se, it will always be around. The internet has become such an essential part of our lives and access to it is becoming increasingly easier that, dare I say it the sex and gambling industry on the net will never die. Having said that, the online gaming industry if it became properly organized with a standard global accreditation process, then I think it could thrive and experience multi-billion dollar growth...whether we see that in our life time, who knows.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
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Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
What I’m about to say is purely just my personal views concerning online gaming and its future.

I don’t think it will ever be doomed, especially for the players across the pond. With what took place over the last couple of years here in the USA, of course for USA players online gaming right now (except for the USA gambler that believes as long as there’s a way their going to play,) most would agree that right now is not a smart or good time to risk any money into what should be considered a leisure hobby. I also believe that most USA players that insist on taking the double gamble of playing online now are players that probably don’t have the needed bankrolls to buy them enough time to hopefully get lucky at land based casinos, and have grown accustomed to seeing phony bankrolls created by the bonus.

I’ve read thread after thread here about players abandoning certain casinos because of the casinos willingness to reduce bonuses and or make them almost impossible to overcome, except of course for the occasional lucky duck. Kasino King always comes to my mind when I think of bonuses and winners that take them, since no matter what they throw at him; he always seems to still overcome it. I also would think that if everyone here did what he did, there would either be no bonuses for anyone or the casinos would be forced to close down.

Regardless, based on the events taking place recently, I truly believe there is going to be a big correction within online gaming. Of course the casinos that predominantly banked on the USA dollar already have to be in dire straits. Some casinos already shut down and many more probably will. Many are scrambling now and doing everything possible to skate the DOJ to survive. If another crackdown should come about soon, I would say that even the die hard gamblers would realize it’s over for them, and should cause most if not all of USA concerned casinos to close their doors. Apparently casinos still living off the USA player had no foresight like many others did to concentrate on other markets.

Personally, I think the events taking place now are causing a well needed correction with online casinos. There are way too many of them to choose from, and they all were getting carried away with bonuses, trying to gain a hefty share of players, since the market presently is so watered down.

I think the strong casinos with their market everywhere else but the USA will be just fine. Most players overseas could give a rat’s ass about the USA player.

With that being said I also believe that within a year or two or three, that the USA will regulate and legalize online gaming here in the USA. Should that happen I think there would be another correction for the remaining online casinos that survived.

I also believe that online gaming regulations within certain jurisdictions seem to be heading recently towards a more serious stance simply because of their fear of the USA regulating and legalizing online gaming in the future. Would a person overseas be willing to abandon the casino he or she were playing at with the uncertainty of regulations being enforced, and prefer to play at the Mirage from Las Vegas online casino fully monitored, regulated, and enforced?

Regardless of tax issues if any that may come into play, European players might be willing to sacrifice those issues for safety.

Like gid88 and Cleveland say above it's way to big of a market to crumble, combined with the internet being what it is today. Money usually decides whats legal or not in most cases, and a multibillion dollar industry pretty much speaks for itself.

The next few years are going to be very interesting concerning online gaming. I think the present form of online casinos are through having their way with the players.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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They havent really tapped the CHINA market and with such a vast number of internet users with plenty of spare cash, as lkong as they can drum up some great marketing gimmicks the money will start rolling in. Being Chinese myself, I dare say we are the most addicted gamblers in the world. There are plenty of people in China who can gamble hundreds of thousands in one night but definitely not on slots unless its really attractive. Just using a chinese version of the software isnt enough. They must think hard to get them to play. The sportsbooks and illegal bookies are already reaping in the cash so online casinos also stand a good chance.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I don't think internet gambling is "doomed". The US is a big market, but only part of the world.

Looks like my province's Gaming Corp will be jumping into in sometime next year. Whether I can still play other venues is undecided. BC is the the market, hardly any posts about them. But the slots here pay back about 82% on penny machines. We are not taxed on gambling wins in Canada.

I had to search for this one, but I found it telling. Buzzluck (geez, I still miss you guys, and you made a graceful exit from the market)

I often wanted to post that I was surprised at guys NOT in the US playing in sites that take US play for exactly that reason; there are greater risks that way for your funds. Then again, you should only be playing with funds you can afford to lose anyway, but you DO deserve some value from them.

The big sports books that take US play are far safer bets than new US standalone online casinos as they DO have thousands of players and have so much at stake that their processing is usually pretty good. So you can feel safe-ish at Bodog, Betonline, Sportsbook dot com (haha, all RTG come to think of it! Although as published here previously Bodog is on original RTG source code and has made changes (most likely) since getting it a couple of years ago). And at smaller, well established books like BetPhoenix, Bookmaker... most offer SOME sort of casino play (although it may just be the old DGS systems, which is fine for BJ but slots, well...). Note that some sports books in the US don't take non-US/North American players, usually due to their (in)ability to process payments outside the North American market.

The other thing about playing at sports books is virtually all of their action is on blackjack, so they tend to forget about their slots and leave them loose-ish to attract players to them. As they usually understaff their casino side relative to its value to the book, and may have issues with using casino bonus funds on the book versus the casino, their casino promotions can seem weak compared to standalone casinos.. but the bigger guys are generally getting their act together there.

As usual, you should find the casino manager (casinomanager@..., casino@.... ) and tell them what you want/need to play their casino at their book and they should take care of you. Players drive their business; at good places you have more say about what you get than you think. Demand more!
 

luarod

Experienced Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Location
Madrid
I don't think it's doomed. Right now things are super crazy (and I think they are probably going to get crazier). But once the figure out how much money they can make if it's regulated, the situation is going to change. Also, I don't think you can stop anything from happening in the internet, they can make an example out of some sites but in the end people are going to still demand online gaming and the casinos a way to provide that service.

I guess it also depends on the countries and their different stands towards gaming as a whole.

I think that if online gambling is regulated the players will benefit from it the most, in a way we will be more protected as they will have to provide a quality product just as any other business.

cheers.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
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Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I'm optimistic regarding the future of the industry.

A steady consolidation has been taking place which means more big, well funded and responsible companies operating squarely within the law, and that makes things safer for the player imo.

I agree with much of what 4 of a kind wrote in his thoughtful assessment. There will eventually be US legalisation and major US gambling groups will enter the market - the size of the returns are too high to ignore.

Eventually I believe it will shake down into a customer-oriented approach, albeit pretty protectionist to keep the cash in America...and that means that enforcement will if anything become fiercer on unlicensed operators who dare to operate there, and companies associated with them.

Chuchu makes a good point that the immense Asian market remains largely untapped, although the stumbling block there appears to be getting governments on-side; maybe working through important land operators in Macau and Singapore would get things moving....?

In Europe it's getting really competitive and increasingly formalised as growing numbers of governments realise that they can make useful bucks out of this pastime.

But there is the spectre of fragmentation which is hampering progress, certainly in the EU member nations. If the European Commission is successful in bringing about regulatory harmonisation it will make for a less confusing and more appealing overall market which still has good potential imo.

Online gambling technology is often at the forefront of global software and communication developments - consider how much progress in delivery channels, games and performance we have seen just in the last decade. I expect that to continue, bringing many new enhancements to the pastime and making it more entertaining and effective.

We're also now seeing a much more collegiate approach to gaming content from operators and software companies, making a greater choice of games available to the player at operator venues, which I think is a good thing.

I believe the best is yet to come, and I hope that as the market continues to mature we will see less of the small, badly run, fly-by-night and undercapitalised operator who - for the player - is usually a disaster waiting to happen.

So the same player wisdom continues to apply - research first and be careful who you give your money to, no matter what incentives are being offered to lure you in.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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I pretty much agree with everything 4 of a kind said.
The industry is definitely not "doomed" but there are a lot of changes happening at the moment which have been greatly accelerated by recent developments in the USA.
I think it will be "survival of the fittest" and we'll see yet more weak casino fold or get taken over by bigger groups.
One can only pray that all the rogue casinos fold up too, but unfortunately I think the US situation will actually help many of them. :(

KK
 

H1_Roller

Non-Gambler
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Location
...
Thanks for the replies everyone. I had had a few glasses of wine last night when I wrote that, and I think I made it a little too dramatic. :oops:
I don't actually think online gambling will 'end' altogether, although it kinda looks like I meant that in the OP. I do, however, worry about the desperate measures I mentioned.

Thankfully for me, I play almost exclusively at Ladbrokes. And I sincerely doubt they've been even slightly fazed by recent events.
 

Casinomeister

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The online gaming industry is extremely resilient and is able to adapt to just about anything. As long as people are willing to place a bet online, the industry will exist.

Like others have mentioned, it's changed a hell of a lot. And the US market will be a real interesting one to follow - especially when the IRS and betting limits are involved. :p

Doomed? well maybe the fun US players had in the past is "doomed", but for most others, it'll be a pretty good ride.

@H1_Roller - glad you enjoyed your wine last night :p
 

Simmo!

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Location
England
They havent really tapped the CHINA market and with such a vast number of internet users with plenty of spare cash, as lkong as they can drum up some great marketing gimmicks the money will start rolling in. Being Chinese myself, I dare say we are the most addicted gamblers in the world. There are plenty of people in China who can gamble hundreds of thousands in one night but definitely not on slots unless its really attractive. Just using a chinese version of the software isnt enough. They must think hard to get them to play. The sportsbooks and illegal bookies are already reaping in the cash so online casinos also stand a good chance.

Chuchu makes a good point that the immense Asian market remains largely untapped, although the stumbling block there appears to be getting governments on-side; maybe working through important land operators in Macau and Singapore would get things moving....?

I went to a conference in Macau a couple of years ago and aside from the obvious politics the other thing that came over strongly was the "cash market" that exists out there and how there is a real reluctance from many Asians to trust other people with holding their money. Even inter-bank transfers are instant (2/3 days in the UK) they said.

And I seem to remember there was a stat trundled out saying there was only something like 1 million credit cards in China (2008).

If those things still stand true then even if the governments buckle, processing issues are going to be a key to handling those markets effectively.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
e-wallets are not common in China as the gamblers pay by cash or credit. However, if the games are attractively designed just like online games they will easily be addicted and willing to gamble away thousands simply for fun. Chinese gamblers are a different breed. No BJ nor slots. They like quickies like Baccarat or strange card games that even I dont understand.The House must allow bigger betting limits to accomodate them though.
 

gid88

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e-wallets are not common in China as the gamblers pay by cash or credit. However, if the games are attractively designed just like online games they will easily be addicted and willing to gamble away thousands simply for fun. Chinese gamblers are a different breed. No BJ nor slots. They like quickies like Baccarat or strange card games that even I dont understand.The House must allow bigger betting limits to accomodate them though.

There's a ton of China players online, I see it very often when i'm at an airport lounge or even at a Starbucks...players logging in through a VPN gambling on an online casino or playing poker. I suspect most of these players are the high end wealthy Chinese, many of which have international credit cards via their dual citizenship status (Brits, Canadians, Eu, Oz). If there's a way to gamble online, you can bet the Chinese will find away to get access. I highly doubt the govt will officially allow online gambling, given its perception in society and more importantly their vested interests in Macau.

As to your comment, VIP (10,000HKD minimum bet) Baccarat is the largest form of revenue for 90% of the major casinos in Macau, the Chinese love it because the house odds are the lowest. They see it as pretty much a flip of the coin game. Next is BJ, then C'bean Stud poker, with Slots coming in the middle before Casino War, Craps (way down the bottom) and Sic Bo.

E-wallets are becoming increasingly common in China, with the likes of Alipay and a whole raft of local providers setting up shop.
 

Mousey

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Up$hitCreek
I think we are seeing the evolution of online gambling. It is indeed changing... in some ways, not for the better. Casinos are becoming more disconnected from their player base. We have become a commodity, not Customers or Patrons. But perhaps that too will be taken care of along the way, and there will be something of a turn around.

Eventually, I think some things must change for online casinos to remain viable... such things as Max Cash out, restrictions on how much can be withdrawn weekly/monthly, etc., crappy comp points that are treated as a bonus, weird T&C (such as: cashing out upon meeting WR can be grounds for shouting 'abuse' and confiscation of winnings).... to me, all these things smack of an industry in its infancy, a business which, in some cases seem to regard players as a necessary evil.

There are the few good casinos. And they will tweak and learn and further improve. The ones who aren't so good better pull on their big boy pants and reconsider their current course.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
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Location
New York
And the US market will be a real interesting one to follow - especially when the IRS and betting limits are involved. :p

Doomed? well maybe the fun US players had in the past is "doomed", but for most others, it'll be a pretty good ride.

I’m not sure the point Bryan is trying to get across when he makes comments like the ones above.

Why should it be interesting if legalized in the USA when the IRS and betting limits are involved? The IRS gambling tax requirements have been pretty much the same since my first visit to land based casinos over 30 plus years ago. Obviously the tax requirements related to gambling in the USA certainly didn’t have any affect on the evolution of the mega land casino resorts like Vegas, and A.C.

Unfortunately, taxes have always been a part of the lives of American citizens, and will never go away. In our country most forms of positive income are subject to taxes, and always have been. No matter how or where you won positive income money, like the lottery, casinos, wall street, horse racing, dog racing, T.V. game shows, (just to mention a tiny handful) those winnings are subject to taxes. Of course if you could prove you lost more then you won at the end of any year, you would not pay any taxes at all on the winnings.

I don’t understand why you feel the IRS is going to ruin the fun for USA players online.

Granted, over the last decade for most if not all Americans that played online could care less about wins and lose stats for the sake of filing their tax returns. No W-2’s showing any winnings were ever mailed to the IRS, or taxes ever being withheld from the casinos. Americans were suppose to file their winnings (if any) just to be righteous and loyal to our country. I know one or two posters will crawl out of the woodwork and explain how righteous they are, but I could assure you that most, and I’m willing to go with 99% of Americans that gamble will evade taxes on winnings if at all possible. At land based casinos excluding slot machines of course, all table players are aware and utilize every tactic available to evade taxes on their winnings.

The only problem with online casino gambling, is that every game will be recorded, making it harder to evade taxes. Other then the occasional super jackpot winner, most gamblers don’t even worry about the IRS or tax laws because most are losers. Only now they'll be forced to keep more accurate records, which personally I think would only keep them more aware of what their actually losing earlier on giving them more control. The percentage of big winners is so minuet when compared to the losers, most would agree that the IRS and gambling is not a serious issue at all.

I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding betting limits, since no laws have been pasted yet. Even if their were limits early on I'm sure they wouldn't affect most people. Online gaming legalized in the USA would also need time to evolve, and will if its ever passed.

I really don’t see how you consider the fun USA players had in the past is doomed once it’s regulated and taxed. Personally, I believe the fun is just about to begin for us, and most European players will also abandon ship and join us, if the present form of online gambling doesn’t make a proven drastic change.
 

P.V.

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I’m not sure the point Bryan is trying to get across when he makes comments like the ones above.

Why should it be interesting if legalized in the USA when the IRS and betting limits are involved? The IRS gambling tax requirements have been pretty much the same since my first visit to land based casinos over 30 plus years ago. Obviously the tax requirements related to gambling in the USA certainly didn’t have any affect on the evolution of the mega land casino resorts like Vegas, and A.C.

Unfortunately, taxes have always been a part of the lives of American citizens, and will never go away. In our country most forms of positive income are subject to taxes, and always have been. No matter how or where you won positive income money, like the lottery, casinos, wall street, horse racing, dog racing, T.V. game shows, (just to mention a tiny handful) those winnings are subject to taxes. Of course if you could prove you lost more then you won at the end of any year, you would not pay any taxes at all on the winnings.

I don’t understand why you feel the IRS is going to ruin the fun for USA players online.

Granted, over the last decade for most if not all Americans that played online could care less about wins and lose stats for the sake of filing their tax returns. No W-2’s showing any winnings were ever mailed to the IRS, or taxes ever being withheld from the casinos. Americans were suppose to file their winnings (if any) just to be righteous and loyal to our country. I know one or two posters will crawl out of the woodwork and explain how righteous they are, but I could assure you that most, and I’m willing to go with 99% of Americans that gamble will evade taxes on winnings if at all possible. At land based casinos excluding slot machines of course, all table players are aware and utilize every tactic available to evade taxes on their winnings.

The only problem with online casino gambling, is that every game will be recorded, making it harder to evade taxes. Other then the occasional super jackpot winner, most gamblers don’t even worry about the IRS or tax laws because most are losers. Only now they'll be forced to keep more accurate records, which personally I think would only keep them more aware of what their actually losing earlier on giving them more control. The percentage of big winners is so minuet when compared to the losers, most would agree that the IRS and gambling is not a serious issue at all.

I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding betting limits, since no laws have been pasted yet. Even if their were limits early on I'm sure they wouldn't affect most people. Online gaming legalized in the USA would also need time to evolve, and will if its ever passed.

I really don’t see how you consider the fun USA players had in the past is doomed once it’s regulated and taxed. Personally, I believe the fun is just about to begin for us, and most European players will also abandon ship and join us, if the present form of online gambling doesn’t make a proven drastic change.

I totally agree with you about taxes and even the UK is considering taxing online gaming. Tax isn't an issue cause everyone is going to do it at some point whether it's the US or abroad.

Now the DC lottery is proposing a losing cap of $250.00 per player per week but hey it's the lottery commission not land based online casinos or independent operators trying to enter the US market and I would expect this from a state lottery commission.

I'm sure limits might vary from state to state, site to site and even from the Feds. if they ever agree to gambling online. At this time I know of no Federal proposed regulation capping player losses or betting amounts.

Honestly loss limits might not be a bad idea to keep players from chasing their money. Come back another day and try again. Move to another site.

Again this is a lottery limit and if that's what it takes to get legalized online gaming going in the US, so be it.

JMO :thumbsup:
 

Casinomeister

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I’m not sure the point Bryan is trying to get across when he makes comments like the ones above....
I was referring to what I've spoken about in a few recent webcasts and newsletters concerning the US market and how it is changing. I'm sure the members who have seen these probably knew what I was getting at :D

The IRS comment had to do with the way the Federal Government will be a big part of online gaming. This not only complicates things, but it also tosses in an element many US players haven't dealt with yet: reporting all winnings (and losses) to the IRS. Now we all know that most law abiding US citizens report and pay their taxes, but this may be something new to the recreational gamer who has been playing with some slush fund for the past few years at some RTG casinos. Just sayin' ;)

They may eschew the "legal" US casinos and continue playing at their favorite RTG.

Many foreign affiliates may be turned off to the fact that they will have to fill out US tax forms as well. It smacks of "big brother."

Betting limits are definitely in the plans for licensing. At the GIGSE in 2010, I met with the architects of the NJ licensing proposition, and one of the selling points of the license was the $5 cap on bets. This way it looks as if they are protecting compulsive gamblers. I'm not sure of the regulations that are being formulated now, but I wouldn't be surprised that a betting limit is not a part of this. The jurisdictions have to answer to the opposition and show that betting online is not as dangerous as the press and misinformed politicians have led many to believe. For high rollers, a max $5 bet would terminate their "fun".

I hope I'm wrong. I hope the US will try to mimic the European market, but I think there are to many chefs in the kitchen. There may be some things that put-off the US player that haven't been realized yet.

With a new gaming environment on the horizon, it's difficult to make assessments before they are set in place. I'm just basing my opinion on the things I have seen so far. :D


I really don’t see how you consider the fun USA players had in the past is doomed once it’s regulated and taxed. Personally, I believe the fun is just about to begin for us, and most European players will also abandon ship and join us, if the present form of online gambling doesn’t make a proven drastic change.

I hope you're right. But I don't thing many will jump ship from the 32red party boat :p

I guess time will tell.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
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Location
New York
I also agree that the present proven elite online casinos will continue to flourish regardless what the USA decides to do. Of course USA players will fear the USA government being involved with anything having showcased their abilities in the past to turn sugar into shit is of grave concern to all.

But if and once regulated in the USA, I’m sure there will be many issues that may not be so appealing especially after the bell rings and the gates open for the first time. I also believe for now most casinos will agree with just about anything to get the gates open, but yet, I’m confident that the big casino investors will eventually get it to be the way they want it. Once the state and federal governments get a taste of their income, you’ll see how fast they are to agree with anything the casinos recommend throwing out the window their righteous protectionist stance in exchange for cash.

No doubt once regulated here it will take a couple of years for online gaming to reflect or at least get close to the same experiences one encounters presently visiting a land based casino.

What will be interesting is what type of player market they really are looking for. Will they concentrate on the low roller market, and create another bonus fiasco mess like online did? Of course they would have to offer perks for the good customers. Maybe they would offer free stays at land based locations to include RFB perks, or instead give the options to just exchange points for cash that is actually yours with no play through requirements like their land operations. I was offered to go to Las Vegas and Atlantic City several times years ago from Golden Palace online casino all on their dime.

I know I’m way ahead of myself here, but these are the things I find interesting when and if it begins.

No doubt their would be concerns for players in the USA, but these concerns will be over looked knowing it’s regulated and enforced, giving the player the security of knowing their getting a fair game 24/7 and will without doubt be paid when they win.

USA gaming would also need time to evolve like online did. I’m also sure they will view the impact of the past online casinos decisions up to this point, and be certain not to follow the wrong path.
 
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