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Is Crypto rigged?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by KasinoKing, Feb 5, 2005.

    Feb 5, 2005
  1. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Some of my favorite casino's are Cryptologic (Wagerlogic), but in recent times I sometimes feel there is something iffy about their software. We all hear of the legendary 'switch' when the software decides it's gonna take you for a little ride - but it seems to be happening more and more often.

    Here is another example. I was playing Stud poker and it was quite normal & OK for 39 hands, in fact I was actually a little bit up! But then 'click' it switched and gave me the worst run I have EVER seen!
    Losing 12 hands in a row is not so unusual with Stud, but it was the way it did it that had my jaw dropping to the floor. Every time I had a good pair the dealer qualified with a better hand, every time I had nothing, so did he!
    I have abbreviated the log to make it easier to read (doesn't make it any easier for ME to read though! :( ), by just stating the cards in each hand that matter.

    In order: My cards - my action - dealer cards - result.

    From Hand 40:- (## = No hand - not even Ace-king - for either player))
    33 Bet. 99 Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    77 Bet. 1010 Lose.
    1010 Bet. QQ Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    88 Bet. 9955 Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    99 Bet. AA66 Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    1010 Bet. KK Lose.
    ## Fold ## Lose.
    99 Bet. AA Lose.

    At this point I gave up!! I suppose for research purposes I should have carried on to see just how long it would go on taking the P like this, but my tears were making my trousers wet! :D

    If some maths genius would like to work out the odds of a run like this, then I would like to hear it!
     
  2. Feb 6, 2005
  3. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    Dont know if crypto is rigged but ill add my 2c on a pet crypto hate.

    That is when playing BJ the dealer busts all the time when I have a good hand ie 20 or 21.

    Since 14th November 2004 I have kept an accurate record on this.

    Out of 469 times I made/got dealt 20 or 21 the dealer busted no less than 314 times. If I didnt know better I would say it is programmed to bust when it knows you have a winning hand to keep the number of busts overall consistant with a fair game.

    Apart from that I have no clue as to whether it is rigged. I tend to think it is not because if it was proved it would ruin them, but the above gives me cause to be suspicious.
     
  4. Feb 6, 2005
  5. gfkostas

    gfkostas Ex-Bonus Whore

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    I have had far worse sessions than your one KK :(
     
  6. Feb 6, 2005
  7. jmildstone

    jmildstone Dormant account

    Location:
    Vermont
    seems their odds are way too tight
     
  8. Feb 6, 2005
  9. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    Crypto deals a fair game from my own experience.
     
  10. Feb 6, 2005
  11. kmartinusa

    kmartinusa Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    Under the Radar
    My take

    I'm certianly not a math genius and can't say with certainty whether any casino software is rigged or not, but I'd agree with whoever posted that it is unlikely that any casino or software provider would risk their business and perhaps the industry with rigged software.

    I've played at Intercasino for years now and never got 4 aces, much less a royal. I was beginning to think that it was rigged, but I have gotten both hands just recently so I guess that I'm a believer now!

    I've been playing online for years now (VP almost exclusively) and my personal opinion based solely on tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of hands played is that online casinos have a different feel than the machines in land based casinos. The best way that I can describe it is that the RNG's of machines vs. RNG's online are each random, but each in a little different way....The RNG's of online casinos seem to be set up to generate the appropriate number of winning hands that a mathmatical analysis would say that should be generated over a long period of time. The machines in land based casinos are random in a different way in that the individual cards (rather than winning hands) are dealt randomly and therefore the pay schedule probabilities match what happens. In both cases the game is fair, but is just done a little differently.

    I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, and really am not sure whether or not I have described my observations very well.

    I also think that I get far more "almosts" online than I do on land based machines.
     
  12. Feb 6, 2005
  13. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Crypto was the only software where I had a full house beaten by another full house. That was at William Hill. On another occasion,at Intercasino,my flush was beaten by a full house. They were single hands,but never came across these incidents at B&M casinos although to be fair,I didnt play that many hands at land-based casinos.
     
  14. Feb 6, 2005
  15. dirk_dangerous

    dirk_dangerous Dormant account

    I've never fully trusted Cryptologic to deal a random (fair) game. I never play any Cryptologic casino without a bonus. With a bonus I still have a chance of winning--even if the SW is rigged. I suggest other players do the same.

    Unfortunately, many Cryptologic casinos have become tightwads and no longer give bonus money (Intercasino is the exception), so I no longer play their casinos. There are still plenty of reputable casinos that give regular bonus money, so I dont need to play at any Cryptologic casino without a bonus. I have a lot have character flaws, but I'm not fool!
     
  16. Feb 6, 2005
  17. dirk_dangerous

    dirk_dangerous Dormant account

    I've never fully trusted Cryptologic to deal a random (fair) game. I never play any Cryptologic casino without a bonus. With a bonus I still have a chance of winning--even if the SW is rigged. I suggest other players do the same.

    Unfortunately, many Cryptologic casinos have become tightwads and no longer give bonus money (Intercasino is the exception), so I no longer play their casinos. There are still plenty of reputable casinos that give regular bonus money, so I dont need to play at any Cryptologic casino without a bonus.
     
  18. Feb 6, 2005
  19. Freudian

    Freudian Dormant account

    Location:
    europe
    I have played somewhere around 15 times at Cryptologic BJ. They all have the same pattern. Seems to play ok for about the first 1000$ wagered. After that it is a long slow drain on my bankroll leaving me a substantial loser. Without fail. That's the reason I wouldn't go near their software even with bonuses.

    Of course it's not proof it's rigged. It could also be a very long period of bad luck. Finding out for sure it quite costly in the long run.
     
  20. Feb 6, 2005
  21. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Realting back to kmartinusa's observations on land based casinos, someone o another forum recently posted the audited payouts of a number of the big land casinos (Caesars etc)...ok, they're slots payouts but....they were all in or around 90/91% whereas when you look at the audited slots payouts for the online casinos, crypto ones included, they all seem to be 95% plus.

    Not sure this proves anything, but i was surprised.

    And regarding the original post by KK, surely the fact that their is a "house-edge" means all casino gambling is rigged ;) Personally, of all the oline casino softwares around, i reckon Crypto is the fairest of the lot.


    Just my $0.02.


    Simmo!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2005
  22. Feb 6, 2005
  23. ukcroupier

    ukcroupier Webmaster

    I've played 100,000's of hands at crypto VP and am happy with the results. One session I logged in after about 2 weeks of inactivity to play thru about $20 of comp money and hit a royal flush on the first hand - hard to believe that would happen in a rigged game.

    I am worried about the slots though. I don't play often but when I have played crypto slots I don't like it - it appears that the reels change from spin to spin. It could be argued that slots can't really be rigged but the way the reels actualy change (at least they look like they do to me) makes me uncomfortable.
     
  24. Feb 6, 2005
  25. Annorax

    Annorax Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Poker
    Location:
    Iowa
    Seconded... I've never lost with a bonus hand anywhere other than Crypto. I've had a full house lose to a straight flush there... Never in a land-based game have I lost with anything bigger than trips. NEVER.

    I know my sample size is probably way too small, but it just doesn't feel right.
     
  26. Feb 6, 2005
  27. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    I don't understand really... We all know there is a house edge on all casino games, and the audited figures all show that nothing is too far in the casino's favour usually.

    The whole issue of gambling anywhere is that you need to get lucky in order to beat the edge and come out on top! I know I stand a greater chance of losing all my money playing slots at any casino than I do of winning, but it's the chance of increasing your money off a lucky run that brings us all back for more! :D I asked the question once about whether or not Microgaming slots were truly RNG based, and it seems that it would be bizarre for them not to be - as simple mathematics dictate that's the best way for the casino to make the most money!! In terms of the 'bonus' thing, I strangely always seem to do better when I'm playing through a bonus than with my own straight deposits. I think I've nailed this too though, it's just that I'm more 'daring' with bonus money, playing higher stakes and hence enjoying higher returns.

    In terms of table games, again, as long as the house edge is intact - it makes no sense to cheat. There must be technically proficient gamblers out there, and it would only take one to break down the software and reveal any 'flaws' to shut the casino's down overnight!

    Running a casino well, is an extremely profitable business - mainly because you're openly admitting that you've got a greater chance of keeping your customers money, than giving them some back. That in itself suggests it would be insane to cheat at a well funded and organised casino, running the risk of being caught out. I think it's a question therefore of playing where you personally feel comfortable - and not where you don't!
     
  28. Feb 6, 2005
  29. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I agree. Except maybe I'd re-word one part to "Running a casino CAN be a profitable business". I'm not sure they all are :cool:
     
  30. Feb 7, 2005
  31. vgyhnji

    vgyhnji Experienced Member

    'The RNG's of online casinos seem to be set up to generate the appropriate number of winning hands that a mathmatical analysis would say that should be generated over a long period of time. The machines in land based casinos are random in a different way in that the individual cards (rather than winning hands) are dealt randomly and therefore the pay schedule probabilities match what happens.'

    I would tend to agree with this as being the way I see online software performing, particularly in BJ. The cards don't always seem to be 'the real deal' but the end result is all that matters and is pre determined after your initial press on the deal button. (Not wanting to go off on a tangent but you can always predict busting with a picture card at Boss Media due to the ridiculous delay before your final card is dealt, if you are going to win the hand it comes immediately but if you are going to bust with a 10/pic the delay is obvious. Look for it next time you play, you'll see what I mean.)

    Back to Crypto and I have to agree with this:

    'as long as the house edge is intact - it makes no sense to cheat.'

    My latest results from Inter where I play most Crypto:

    Total hands with a result (ie:excl pushes) = 4185
    Won = 2014 = 48.12%
    Lost = 2171 = 51.88%
    Longest consecutive wins = 10
    Longest consecutive losses = 9

    This is simply a fair result overall, as to be expected.

    Of course it does not mean that within these results there were not larger deviations from the expectation, some in my favour, some for the casino. Thus if the deviation was in my favour for a while it could reasonably be expected that at some time in the future this 'trend' would reverse and the casino beat me up for a while. I am sure you have all experienced a reasonable winning run only to come to a sticky end when the casino 'bites back'. All this simply adds up to the myth 'of the legendary 'switch' when the software decides it's gonna take you for a little ride '

    In reality its doing no more than adjusting towards a fair game.
     
  32. Feb 7, 2005
  33. ukcroupier

    ukcroupier Webmaster

    What game are we talking about here? caribbean stud?

    If so, when I was a dealer I beat a players SFwith a higher SF - hard to know what to do when you stuff a punter like that, very embarassing
     
  34. Feb 7, 2005
  35. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
     
  36. Feb 7, 2005
  37. Annorax

    Annorax Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Poker
    Location:
    Iowa
    Did he have his bonus bet up? If so.. I'd think the 10% jackpot would take the edge off that "not getting 50 to 1" blow.
     
  38. Feb 7, 2005
  39. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Yeah, I noticed that ages ago. Every time it happens I frantically search for the 'No, sorry, I don't really want that card' button! :D

    BTW, well done to Bolton for helping me actually win an 8/1 four-fold footy bet (with Liverpool, Man U & Spurs), nice one! :thumbsup:
     

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