Intercasino having their cake and eating it...

[dusky]

I was in two minds about posting this up yet because I'm still unsure of what steps to look at next but in light of the other Intercasino post I thought I would post what has happened to me / my account there this last week.

I've been a player at Intercasino for years and am currently a VIP player there, deposited and withdrew large amounts over the course of my time as a player there, was even sent a lovely champagne package over Christmas.

I received a 100% VIP bonus on the 28th of January (£500). My bonuses used to always come with a max bet of 25% of the bonus rule and it wasn't showing on this particular bonus. I emailed CS before depositing as I knew that they had introduced a max bet rule of £6.25 for slot spins on their bonuses. I almost always bet in the region of varying stakes from £10 to £50 (Even £62.50 on one game in the past where I have won £22,000 and cashed out with no issues) so wanted to see if my usual play would be accepted before depositing.

I was looking at the terms for this bonus, usually my bonus offers state "No bets allowed that are more than 25% of the bonus amount" but this isn't stated in this one.

Can you let me know what the maximum stake amounts are on slots and table games please so that I don't fall foul of any of your terms/rules.

Kind Regards

Quick reply from their customer services was as follows...

Thank you for contacting the InterVIP Support Team regarding the bonus terms and conditions.

Please be informed that this condition, as you may understand was introduced in order to prevent bonus abuse.
It is only implemented upon suspicion of abuse.

As you are a VIP at InterCasino, this condition does not apply to you. Please feel free to play as normal.

Please note the bolded part as this becomes my main gripe with how this proceeds.

I then deposited my funds and played out the bonus, initially betting £40, £20, £10 and then back to £40. I hit a huge win on Chilli Gold (first reel was random and all other 4 reels full of wilds!) and then played out the rest of my bonus requirements at £10 a hand on Platinum Pyramid. Winning screenshot below.



I eventually cashed out £11,496.42.

On the 4th of February I received the following email, detailing me about my funds being confiscated...

Kindly be advised that your pending Moneybookers/Skrill withdrawals have been voided and your winnings have been confiscated due to a breach of the terms and conditions of the activated Bonus (Bonus ID:2727). Specifically the terms and conditions stated below:

Zero tolerance for bonus abuse and/or bonus fraud:

- Two tier betting
- A pattern of betting using bonus money in which a significant proportion of single bets are more than £/$/€ 6.25 in slots or more than £/$/€ 25 in table games

So this is where all of the issues with my experience start, after a few emails back and forth with them they are adamant that they are sticking to the "Two Tier Betting" rule, despite them clarifying first that I can "feel free to play as normal".

I emailed them back, stating about my previous play being exactly the same as this and them never having an issue with it before, plus the fact that I was told to play as I normally do on my account, receiving this reply...

Thank you for your feedback and for raising your concerns regarding both your previous sessions and the decision that was taken yesterday.

Any gameplay pattern that would not be in line with our terms would be looked at, in light of your loyalty it may have been disregarded as previously explained but if the pattern continued and was linked towards what would be considered as bonus abuse we would need to proceed as we did.

While we can appreciate that this may not have been your intention the removal of the winnings had to be enforced on this occasion and we hope that you will not experience a similar issue going forward.

InterCasino has been operating for more than 18 years and we are always happy to send winnings back to our players without whom we could not still be one of the top casinos online, I have also attached a list of withdrawals successfully processed on your account since 2014; you will note that the amounts were as high as £10000 (the maximum per transaction).

In regards to the previous communication and our allowing you to play normally, which by definition would not allow other sort of bonus abuse such as two-tier betting.

We are sorry about the inconvenience this may have caused but look forward to congratulating you again and process any withdrawal you may request.

Over the last 12 months in particular I've played in exactly the same way as I have in this instance, either betting a mix of slot stakes and cashed out with no problem so I don't see what the issue is with this one. They've even sent me a detailed list of all of my withdrawals previously that I have had with them playing in exactly the same way.

I've played and lost in the region of £10,000 playing exactly the same way with them since around October/November 2014. I received a £2000, 100% match just before Christmas and played a mix of £25, £200 and £300 stakes on Bacarrat and lost it all so should I expect them to return these deposits?

"but if the pattern continued and was linked towards what would be considered as bonus abuse we would need to proceed as we did."

So why not inform me of this when I am losing thousands playing in the same way? (Maybe we all know the answer here )

In my eyes they should not be allowed to selectively only refer back to this stuff when it suits them but the most infuriating thing about this instance is that I was told to play as a normally do and have then had an amazing win confiscated. Along with the other post about 38,000 euros then it seems to be a nice money earner for them as they take players losing deposits but also confiscate their wins.

 

[quber]

I can not understand why a Casino would risk losing a player of your level over this? At 40 a spin you were only winning 250 ish times your stake.

I would move on if I was you as players of your level do make a difference to them and you leaving is the only way to make them regret their decisions and maybe be sensible in the future and see the big picture. Most of us are low rollers so wouldn't be missed.

 

[questa]

They will argue that you were "two tier betting" by playing lower stakes after a winning spin, but I would think it is perfectly normal to reduce your spin size if you have won a decent amount. I posted about their new rules in the other thread, does seem like a very vague set of terms designed to remove any possibility of winning big with a bonus. Shame.

 

[Fjellsame]

They will argue that you were "two tier betting" by playing lower stakes after a winning spin, but I would think it is perfectly normal to reduce your spin size if you have won a decent amount. I posted about their new rules in the other thread, does seem like a very vague set of terms designed to remove any possibility of winning big with a bonus. Shame.

Its abolutely insane that Casinos can punish a player because he or she lowers the stakes after a winning spin. As i havent experienced this myselfe i have to ask, is this a normal practice at Online Casinos?

 

[Casino2014man]

Its abolutely insane that Casinos can punish a player because he or she lowers the stakes after a winning spin. As i havent experienced this myselfe i have to ask, is this a normal practice at Online Casinos?

They probably want more idiots like me, when I win I often increase my stake..

 

[questa]

They probably want more idiots like me, when I win I often increase my stake..

They'd probably consider that "two tier" betting as well

So you'd have to stick to the same stake. But then you'd fall foul of the "stake too high" rule.

So you could keep your stake low. In which case you would be caught by the "bonus abuse" term for grinding out the wagering.

They should just replace all the terms with one term. "If you take a bonus, your winnings will be zero"

I guess they need to replenish their bank accounts after spending all that money on Jackpotjoy

 

[dunover]

This is dangerously near 'spirit of the bonus' BS as far as I can see. Especially when you went to the bother of clarifying things first. This win would put you about quits at their casino overall (according to their figures you quoted).
It seems that the FU here is that previously being a VIP player their adherence to the 6.25 max bonus bet has been advisory and not enforced, but of course the term being there at all leaves room for arbitrary decisions like this.
You would not have heard a peep about your varying the stake had you lost.
It's not a dramatic swing, your max stake being 4x your min stake. You bet accordingly as your balance changes. I have joined sites and started at 30p on say TSII under bonus and ended up playing £3 while under WR which is 10x as much and been paid.
Definitely worth a rep contact (he's being kept busy lately considering Intercasino hardly ever get a moan on here usually) or if not a PAB.

Either they apply the term under all circumstances or they don't have it; there should be no ifs and buts.

 

[Casino2014man]

It is when I see things like this, that make me realise how lucky we are to have a site like CM to inform us..

There must be so many people out there who are less savvy than many here, that come across issues like this, do not realise they can challenge/fight the 'decision' and give up. The casinos must make so much extra money from this kind of BS.

It really is making me think twice about touching bonuses anywhere in future as they are such a hassle..

 

[Vince Inter]

InterCasino are aware of the customer (dusky) and are looking into the matter. We shall update Casinomeister too with the issue that has been raised.

Best regards

 

[vinylweatherman]

InterCasino are aware of the customer (dusky) and are looking into the matter. We shall update Casinomeister too with the issue that has been raised.

Best regards

This is just one of a number of issues that have cropped up recently. This customer went to the trouble of contacting CS, and was blatantly lied to as clearly his pattern of play was ALREADY under review. It's not even as if he suddenly played like this, he played in his normal manner, as a VIP high roller.

There is no "looking into" needed here. VIP services already made it clear to him that he could play as he normally does, and that the rule did not apply to him as a VIP.

If a VIP high roller was told the truth, that the rule applied to EVERYBODY, then said VIP high roller would take their money elsewhere, there are plenty of casinos where VIP players can bet this high WITH a bonus and get paid without fuss.

Players should take this as a cautionary tale, don't believe a word CS says about any rule "not applying to you as a VIP", and that the max bet applies to EVERYONE, even the high roller, when a bonus is taken. It's how the rule is written in any case.

I suspect CS are not telling the truth to their regular high rollers in order not to scare them away, but the casino WILL act by confiscating any big wins that result, even if they back down after the player fights back through fear of losing their future custom.

Intercasino was recently sold to a new owner, does this have anything to do with this sudden and predatory change in how existing players are being dealt with?

 

[Jono777]

I see this as yet more proof that certain casinos will do as and what they please whenever they want to, regardless of whats written in T&C's and what support / VIP support tell us!!

 

[cncas123]

Is it worthwhile taking a bonus at a casino now? It seems to me that when the bonus is taken, you are immediately at the mercy of spurious terms and conditions, in some cases well hidden terms and conditions, and highly ambiguous terms and conditions. Add to this CS that either are unaware of the terms, or who simply dont want a customer to be aware of the full ramifications of the terms, is there any real point of taking a bonus if you ever have the want to make a withdrawal at the end of your session?

 

[Mousey]

As I see it, the problem is that by not adhering to written T&C players are leaving themselves wide open to confiscation of their funds/winnings - regardless of what one is told by customer service and/or VIP reps.

Familiarize yourself with the T&C for any particular bonuses (if you insist on using them) and stick with those terms.

It seems long gone are the days of special treatment simply because one may be a 'VIP'.

 

[vinylweatherman]

As I see it, the problem is that by not adhering to written T&C players are leaving themselves wide open to confiscation of their funds/winnings - regardless of what one is told by customer service and/or VIP reps.

Familiarize yourself with the T&C for any particular bonuses (if you insist on using them) and stick with those terms.

It seems long gone are the days of special treatment simply because one may be a 'VIP'.

This will mean that casinos lose one way of rewarding their VIPs simply because a VIP can no longer rely on what their host promises them. Now there needs to be written VIP terms, not just the word of VIP CS in an email.

VIP High roller

I was looking at the terms for this bonus, usually my bonus offers state "No bets allowed that are more than 25% of the bonus amount" but this isn't stated in this one.

Can you let me know what the maximum stake amounts are on slots and table games please so that I don't fall foul of any of your terms/rules.

Kind Regards

VIP Support

Thank you for contacting the InterVIP Support Team regarding the bonus terms and conditions.

Please be informed that this condition, as you may understand was introduced in order to prevent bonus abuse.
It is only implemented upon suspicion of abuse.

As you are a VIP at InterCasino, this condition does not apply to you. Please feel free to play as normal.

VIP High Roller

Thanks, I now just need you to send me a notarised copy of that signed by the board of directors, and then I will deposit and play as normal

 

[dunover]

"Thanks, I now just need you to send me a notarised copy of that signed by the board of directors, and then I will deposit and play as normal"

Very good.

 

[dusky]

"Thanks, I now just need you to send me a notarised copy of that signed by the board of directors, and then I will deposit and play as normal"

That would be an interesting change! Don't think any establishment would be quite so willing to sign up to OUR T n C's!

I think you've got your threads mixed up based on your response to the other post Vinyl, I don't want to muddy the waters on anyone elses thread I just posted mine as it was also concerning Intercasino.

 

[kavaman]

Maybe they should train their vip hosts better , so they would only say , please refer to our terms and conditions.

If the CS promised the player something in writing they should pay the player, case closed.

 

[LHofsdal]

It is going to be quite interesting to see the outcome of this horrible situation. And I mean horrible.

The OP did the right thing by contacting the CS and asking about it. It looks as though the OP did it through e-mail. The CS department could have double checked with the appropriate departments to ensure they were telling the OP the correct information. Which is obvious they did not do that. Now this player is out quite a substantial amount of money.

I think Dunover hit the nail on the head here. But what I would like to know where in the terms and conditions it states that a player can not decrease their bet size after a huge win. I could see the casino acting like this if he won that amount and then went to 1 dollar or 50 cents or even 6.25 USD. But his bets were still 10 dollars. That is not chump change if you ask me. It doesn't sound like his bets went below 10 dollars, and if that is the OP's regualar play pattern, they didn't do anything wrong.

In any event, again this is making this casino look bad, not by the OP's doing, but by the casino's own actions. This casino may just have lost a VIP player, and other players because the only thing I have been reading about them is all negative.

I wish the OP the best of luck with this, and hope you do get your money.

LH

 

[vinylweatherman]

"Thanks, I now just need you to send me a notarised copy of that signed by the board of directors, and then I will deposit and play as normal"

That would be an interesting change! Don't think any establishment would be quite so willing to sign up to OUR T n C's!

I think you've got your threads mixed up based on your response to the other post Vinyl, I don't want to muddy the waters on anyone elses thread I just posted mine as it was also concerning Intercasino.

Possible, there are actually TWO current issues concerning Intercasino, both involving play with a bonus followed by confiscation.

In the past, Intercasino rarely generated a single complaint, especially one regarding confiscation of winnings. This may have been due to them having an advanced bonus system which prevented players from withdrawing before meeting WR, and then having games simply not count if they were not part of the bonus in question, so that if players played the wrong game, they could never meet WR, and thus never withdraw.

They were also one of the few casinos that didn't seem too bothered about players having more than one account, even to the extent of claiming bonuses.

It seems all the problems are related to the "new" Intercasino, different software, new owners.

 

[dusky]

I think Dunover hit the nail on the head here. But what I would like to know where in the terms and conditions it states that a player can not decrease their bet size after a huge win. I could see the casino acting like this if he won that amount and then went to 1 dollar or 50 cents or even 6.25 USD. But his bets were still 10 dollars. That is not chump change if you ask me. It doesn't sound like his bets went below 10 dollars, and if that is the OP's regualar play pattern, they didn't do anything wrong.

It doesn't actually say anything in particular except for a rather vague term about "Two tier betting".

The determination of what constitutes bonus abuse shall be at the sole discretion of InterCasino, but for clarity what will be considered evidence of bonus abuse shall include, but not be limited to, the following examples:
Using more than one account
Wagering the bonus money on excluded games
Bonus stacking
Two tier betting
Multiple account strategy / proxy account strategy
Using a VPN or masking IP address
Affiliate CPA or revenue share abuse
A pattern of betting using bonus money in which a significant proportion of single bets are more than £/$/€ 6.25 in slots or more than £/$/€ 25 in table games
A pattern of betting for cashback in which a significant proportion of single bets are more than £/$/€ 6.25 in slots or more than £/$/€ 25 in table games

Before this happened I always assumed that two tier betting was as it's listed in Ladbrokes Terms and Conditions...

If a Player builds a balance while playing any other game or games that are not slot games and thereafter change their game play to generate wager requirements on slot games.

But I guess that's up to Intercasino if hey wish to rely on vague terms to confiscate then I don't believe we get too much of a say. I found it strange that they did actually clarify it further in their email "Two-tier betting betting involves making high bets until winning a large sum then switching to lower bets to complete the remaining wagering requirement, which unfortunately seems to be the case.", if they can tell me that after the fact via email why not have that same copy on the website so it's not vague? (Again I think we know why).

My main gripe in all of this, as previously mentioned isn't actually that anyway, it's that they've been perfectly happy with this play for as long as I can think, paying out thousands in winnings (and keeping thousands in lost deposits, fair enough) without hassle , offering me higher bonuses for the last 12 months (100% to £2000 just before Christmas for example) and they've been happy to keep my money when I've lost playing this way (A way which I recognised would fall foul of their new terms above hence me checking with CS first) but now when I've finally won they confiscate my winnings and pull me up about my play. That's what I have issue with.

You would not have heard a peep about your varying the stake had you lost.
It's not a dramatic swing, your max stake being 4x your min stake. You bet accordingly as your balance changes.

Exactly. As has been proven.

 

[Tirilej]

Can't you please also make a PAB?
I don't think that Max is aware of it being two similar cases with Intercasino at the same time.

It's clear that these guys are different and maybe they shouldn't even be accredited anymore. Especially not if they are using the ''spirit of the bonus'' rule, as seems to be the case here.
So do it for the rest of the players.

 

[Jono777]

Just spotted this and Imagination took over, however probably not too far from the truth....

The determination of what constitutes bonus abuse shall be at the sole discretion of InterCasino, but for clarity what will be considered evidence of bonus abuse shall include, but not be limited to, the following examples:
Using more than one account
Wagering the bonus money on excluded games
Bonus stacking
Anything else that springs to mind at the time that is remotely plausible or we can probably 'get away with'

 

[Vince Inter]

Response from InterCasino

Dear Dusky,

Whilst I do believe that Dusky's playing pattern constitutes 2 tier betting which is in clear contravention of our terms and most other operators terms and at the time Dusky had been downgraded from VIP status ( which has far fewer restrictions around its bonuses), I have also found that Dusky was not informed of his change of status and further more when he enquired as to the rules around this bonus he was given the wrong information from CS. I therefore feel on this occasion, that Dusky played within the spirit of what he had been told. Therefore it would be unfair to withhold his winnings.

I will be apologising to Dusky by email and will instruct the payments team to pay his full winnings immediately.

Yours sincerely
Vince

 

[Tirilej]

Dear Dusky,

Whilst I do believe that Dusky's playing pattern constitutes 2 tier betting which is in clear contravention of our terms and most other operators terms and at the time Dusky had been downgraded from VIP status ( which has far fewer restrictions around its bonuses), I have also found that Dusky was not informed of his change of status and further more when he enquired as to the rules around this bonus he was given the wrong information from CS. I therefore feel on this occasion, that Dusky played within the spirit of what he had been told. Therefore it would be unfair to withhold his winnings.

I will be apologising to Dusky by email and will instruct the payments team to pay his full winnings immediately.

Yours sincerely
Vince

That's absolutely great so congratulations to you Dusky.

I've never heard the word 2 tier betting before and I've been a member here for many years now.
Could you Vince, please explain what it is, so someone like me don't fall into that trap?
I guess your rules are in English also which makes it even harder to understand for us who don't know the language so well.

 

[dusky]

Just wanted to say thank you to Vince and his team at Intercasino for this outcome. I hope that we have both learnt something about this, I certainly have.

It's a great credit to the people at Intercasino as to how it's been handled quickly and professionally.

I've definitely not been aware of any change to my VIP status so I will be wary of what I can and cannot do in terms of bonus play at Intercasino from now on and as I've been downgraded the word of customer service matters not as all terms apply from here on in as written.

I would definitely recommend a clarification to the simple wording of "Two Tier Betting" as brought up above so that this doesn't affect any other players in future. I know of other places that specifically mention what is / isn't allowed in regards to this rule.

Thank you again for the swift outcome.