Bogus Complaint Intercasino does not pay me

Tobster

Banned User - Violation of rules 1.10, 1.11
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Germany
Hello,

First i wanted to say sorry that my report is that long, i just didnt know how to make it shorter and still get all details in it. So i added cliffnotes at the end of the post for ppl that dont want to spend the time reading all this, which i understand.

I signed up at intercasino.com on the 26th of july. Prior to that i read the terms and conditions to make sure intercasino accepts germans etc etc.
Then i deposited 200 euros and got 200 euros bonus and played a slot called batman which is my favourite slot. Around one hour after having signed up I was winning around 7800 euros and tried to withdraw some of my winnings(3000 euros) after having fullfilled the wagering requirements.

I was then asked for an utility bill and a copy of my ID for verificationpurposes, which i sent to them. They got accepted, i thought i ll recieved my withdrawal, but instead got asked for a second verificationprocess instead, this time they asked for a picture of me holding my ID next to my face and a notarized ID including the name, adress and phonenumber of the notar notarizing it. I was kind of annoyed getting asked to verify myself twice but i then went to the notar, got the notarization including his personal infos and paid for the service.

After i sent the documents i was expecting to recieve my withdrawal now quickly after having sent 4 different verificationdocuments but instead as an answer i got another email, this time asking me about my internetconnection. I said im usually trying to use vpn as much as possible, since my friend told me its safer to surf in the internet like that these days, especially if u expect ur connection to be not safe. I never said i actually used vpn that day, since it has been like a month since i won those 7800 euros and i couldnt remember with certainty if i did or not, since sometimes i forget to use it.

So after i replied that, i recieved the following email:

"Dear Tobias,
Account Number: 1312***
Alias: tobi*******

You have severely violated our terms and conditions(link below) by masking your real IP address. Therefore, your account has been terminated.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Please pay special attention to clause 16. UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR:

Masking IP or location is not allowed. The Licensor reserves the right to close any accounts and void any bets if the account was created through the use of IP or geolocation masking technologies (including but not limited to VPN, Proxy Servers etc).

If the Licensor suspects that you have engaged or attempted to engage in fraudulent, unlawful, dishonest or improper activity while using the Ecash Service or the Games, including without limitation engaging in game manipulation, or the making of any fraudulent payment, or use of a stolen credit or debit card or fraudulent chargeback or money laundering, the Licensor shall be entitled to take such action as the Licensor sees fit, including, but not limited to seizing any funds in your account, reversing any payments made to you, seeking any civil or criminal remedies available to the Licensor and to share the information with authorities and with payment processing partners subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act.

You shall indemnify and shall be liable to pay the Licensor all costs, charges and losses sustained or incurred by the Licensor or other end-users of the Ecash service or the Games (including direct, indirect or consequential losses, loss of profit and loss of reputation, and payment for the time of any fraud investigation) arising directly or indirectly from your fraud, dishonesty or criminal act.

If you would still like to file a complaint with our regulators - LGA (Lotteries and Gaming Authority) please find below respective contact details:

LGA (Lotteries and Gaming Authority): Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
Link Removed (Old/Invalid)
Email: [email protected]

Regards,
Leo
Anti-Fraud & Risk Department"


1. In my opinion it is unfair denying a customer his winnings for using a vpn which most people do these days because of safety reasons like i explained before, especially after this user provided 4 different documents verfying his identity. I understand the fact that casinos have to proctect themselfs against fraud, but i sent them every possible verificationdocument a casino could ask for. I wouldnt mind them calling me or come say hello at my home if that helps the case.

2. Like i said, i read the terms and conditions before signing up on the 26th of july and the clause 16 that intercasino relys on didnt even exist back then. I remember exactly the terms and conditions stopped after clause 14.4 and there were no more clauses after this one.

So i read the article in this forum on how to post a complaint and it said that a player should always contact the forummember representing the casino in here first. So i sent a message to the intercasino representative of casinomeister telling him my problem hoping this was just a misunderstanding and they didnt realize they changed the T&C's after me winning the money. I wrote a big report of what happened including all details, but his answer was simply that i broke the term 16 stating no vpn allowed and thats it pretty much. Like he wouldnt even talk about the fact that i explained him im sure this term didnt exist when i signed up, just ignored most of what i said which made me feel quite bad.
So i realized i needed to find proof that the terms were different before and so i got advised in another forum to use the website called waybackmachine.org, which permits you to see what websites looked like in the past. So i took a look at intercasino terms and conditions and there it was, the site had memorized the intercasino terms and conditions. The closest ones the 26th of july when i signed up were the 12th of july and the 26th of june, both show that the terms and conditions were different and the clause 16 didnt exist.

Here is a screenshot of what the terms and conditions look like after the change has been made and what it looks like today:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


And here is a screenshot of what the terms and conditions looked like on the 26th and 12th of july:
26th june:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


12th july:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


So like i said all in the beginning, the terms and conditions stopped after 14.4 and the term 16 didnt even exist and i was glad having found a way to show that the terms and conditions were different before.
I decided to send the intercasino representative a message asking when exactly they added the clause 16 to their terms and conditions. Here is a screenshot of my message and his answer:
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"The terms and conditions relating to that section have not changed since the last 6 years. "

So now i sent him the screenshot of july and said i have a screenshot of july proving that what you said isnt true, the clause didnt even exist back then, so why do you say the section hasnt changed in 6 years?
He ignored the screenshot and everything i said and just answered i can go complain at the LGA if i want.

I then called intercasino. They gave me the email of the head support manager. I explained my issue and again asked for the date that the term 16 has been added to the terms and conditons, the answer was that the last amendment to the terms and conditions has been made in june 2012, which is not true as u can see in screenshots above. Here is the screenshot of the email of the head support manager:
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I feel shocked the way i am being treated by intercasino, especially since they have an accredited status on casinomeister. I always talked in a polite and respectful way with the representatives trying to get them to admit it was a mistake or whatever, but i just get ignored and no real answers to my important questions. I really would appreciate casinomeister helping me with this case.

Cliffnotes:

1. Read terms and conditions, deposited 200 euros at intercasino, got 200 bonus, won around 7800 euros on 26th of july

2. Got asked for ID+utility bill, i sent them, got asked for picture holding ID+notarized ID, i sent them.

3. After having recieved 4 verification documents from me they ask what connection i use, i say i try to use vpn as much as i can for safety reasons, they email back i violated term 16 that says no vpn allowed.

4. Term 16 didnt exist when i signed up, which i told them since the beginning because i remembered reading before signing up, i got ignored.

5. I ask cm intercasino rep what date they added clause 16 exactly, he answers this clause hasnt been changed in 6 years. I ask same question to head support manager, the answer is last amendment to the terms and conditions have been made in june 2012.

6. I used waybackmachine.org to show screenshot of july(12th) that shows term 16 didnt exist, proving that intercasinos claim isnt true, again screenshots and what i said gets ignored.

Kind regards,
Tobias
 
Last edited:

Googobucs

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Location
Florida, USA
It does not matter what the T & C said when you signed up, it matters what the T & C said when you played. Did that term exist when you played?

FYI - This is very common for casino's to not allow VPN's so I would suggest you not use it again any place you play or you will be dealing with this again.
 

Tobster

Banned User - Violation of rules 1.10, 1.11
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Germany
It does not matter what the T & C said when you signed up, it matters what the T & C said when you played. Did that term exist when you played?

FYI - This is very common for casino's to not allow VPN's so I would suggest you not use it again any place you play or you will be dealing with this again.

Hi Googobucs,

Sorry i think i should have pointed that out better, i played and was winning 7800 euros around 1 hour after signing up, so yes the term didnt exist when i won the money.
 

petro

Dormant account, per user request
PABaccred
PABnoaccred2
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Location
Narnia
I think OP has a case here.

I verified it with Wayback Machine myself.
The available evidence is strong enough to convince me that the terms were changed when he/she went to make a withdrawal.

The Wayback Machine is more trustworthy than a casino rep.


Did that term exist when you played?
It most likely didn't.

so yes the term didnt exist when i won the money.

You might know that but we don't. But I would say it's likely that the term didn't exist.
 

Finn

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Location
Finland
Even if they added that term later, ban on VPN usage could have been implied somewhere in earlier version of terms and conditions, most casinos are against VPN usage.

For example this from July 2014, I'm not saying this would be the most relevant, it was just one of the first terms the "GENERAL PROMOTION TERMS & CONDITIONS" .

Unless otherwise expressly stated in the specific terms of the promotion, promotions are available only once per PC, person, family, household address, e-mail address and credit card number. InterCasino reserves the right to impose further limits in respect of accounts originating from environments where computers are shared (i.e.) university campuses, fraternity, school, public library, workplace, etc.

University campuses, work place networks often use VPN.
 

Tobster

Banned User - Violation of rules 1.10, 1.11
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Germany
Even if they added that term later, ban on VPN usage could have been implied somewhere in earlier version of terms and conditions, most casinos are against VPN usage.

For example this from July 2014, I'm not saying this would be the most relevant, it was just one of the first terms the "GENERAL PROMOTION TERMS & CONDITIONS" .



University campuses, work place networks often use VPN.

I never knew some casinos dont like vpn and i never had a single problem with any casino because of this.
But yes, i agree and understand now that its definatly better to not use it while playing in a casino. However it doesnt change that there was no term against vpn use while i won the money. I read the "new" and "old" terms and conditions several times and didnt find anything that forbids the use of vpn or anything like that.
 

Googobucs

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Location
Florida, USA
If the terms changed after you played, and they are using those terms to deny payment then you should immediately stop posting and PAB.

Link Outdated / Removed

Be sure to read all of the terms associated with this before you do so.
If it's that cut and dry then I think you have a good case and Max may be able to help you resolve it.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I can't find the term either so it does seem it was added recently.
If so you have a very decent PAB case as they can't apply terms retrospectively.

I must say that common-sense decrees you don't hide your IP from someone who is potentially going to be paying you their money, especially online casinos. It could be used to get bonuses from bonus-banned countries and to play illegally.

Intercasino aren't rogues and the CS rep isn't lying, they probably genuinely don't know when and by whom the terms were changed. If you PAB they will look into it and give Max an honest answer as to when they were changed.

Good luck.
 

Finn

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Location
Finland
I said im usually trying to use vpn as much as possible, since my friend told me its safer to surf in the internet like that these days, especially if u expect ur connection to be not safe.

Pretty much the only unsafe connection that really benefits from VPN is public WLAN/Wifi and you should not play casinos when using bonuses at public wlan/wifi just like you should not play with bonuses when using university network, workplace network, library network etc.

I never knew some casinos dont like vpn and i never had a single problem with any casino because of this.
But yes, i agree and understand now that its definatly better to not use it while playing in a casino. However it doesnt change that there was no term against vpn use while i won the money. I read the "new" and "old" terms and conditions several times and didnt find anything that forbids the use of vpn or anything like that.

Most legitimate uses of VPN involve connecting to university networks, work place networks etc. Using VPN is essentially concealing your true identity. Outside of the extra security in public Wlan/wifi, this is pretty much the only use of VPN for private citizens.

Private citizens use VPN to conceal their true identity so that national authorities don't tag them for their torrent piracy activities

Nine-year-old's home raided by Finnish police for illegal download
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Also private citizens use VPN to get around country-restrictions, this would be mostly people outside of US trying to see newest episodes of TV shows that are country-restricted US-only, this is also a form of deception.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Pretty much the only unsafe connection that really benefits from VPN is public WLAN/Wifi and you should not play casinos when using bonuses at public wlan/wifi just like you should not play with bonuses when using university network, workplace network, library network etc.



Most legitimate uses of VPN involve connecting to university networks, work place networks etc. Using VPN is essentially concealing your true identity. Outside of the extra security in public Wlan/wifi, this is pretty much the only use of VPN for private citizens.

Private citizens use VPN to conceal their true identity so that national authorities don't tag them for their torrent piracy activities

Nine-year-old's home raided by Finnish police for illegal download
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Also private citizens use VPN to get around country-restrictions, this would be mostly people outside of US trying to see newest episodes of TV shows that are country-restricted US-only, this is also a form of deception.

Not in this case, as he has submitted all the documents requested proving his identity.
 

Beravek7

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Location
Prague
Intercasino aren't rogues and the CS rep isn't lying, they probably genuinely don't know when and by whom the terms were changed. If you PAB they will look into it and give Max an honest answer as to when they were changed.

Good luck.

No chance that was a coincidence. The player is very lucky he could find a DEFINITE prove of "casino fraud".
 

petro

Dormant account, per user request
PABaccred
PABnoaccred2
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Location
Narnia
The player is very lucky he could find a DEFINITE prove of "casino fraud".
My thoughts as well. Having evidence handy at times like these is very lucky.

If you think about it could anyone prove what they were doing 6 hours ago for instance?
Not many could and I've been in situations like that before, a minor traffic offence where I could not prove myself innocent, even though I was.
 

Beravek7

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Location
Prague
Why I say the guy was lucky is because this wayback machine is not always useful with the cases like this. Once I had a similar problem: casino changed the terms and conditions and applied them to my gameplay retroactively. I tried to find a prove at wayback machine website. But it turned out that they only scanned that particular T&C webpage some six months ago so I did not have any definite prove.
 

Tobster

Banned User - Violation of rules 1.10, 1.11
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Germany
Why I say the guy was lucky is because this wayback machine is not always useful with the cases like this. Once I had a similar problem: casino changed the terms and conditions and applied them to my gameplay retroactively. I tried to find a prove at wayback machine website. But it turned out that they only scanned that particular T&C webpage some six months ago so I did not have any definite prove.

Yes thats true, i think the waybackmachine takes more screenshots of a site the bigger its traffic is, so if the site you played was kinda small you might be out of luck i guess :(. Since intercasino is quite big they saved the site like once a month fortunatly, i really had no idea how to prove it otherwise, big thanks to those guys making the site available for free.
 

patricius

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Portugal
Since the waybackmachine worked (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
) the issue is not vpn, proxy, etc. now but only for the T & C on the date the bets were made and money won ( and money deposited and not refused by casino).

Without a presented limitation/restrition in the beginning by the casino T & C on that date all correct answers/responsabilities must consider those restrictions not valid for this case.

And why request all documents first (as only depending on it to pay ) until arriving to the "different" T & C limitation? And not the opposite at first - even after deposit?
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
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PABnononaccred
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Since the waybackmachine worked (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
) the issue is not vpn, proxy, etc. now but only for the T & C on the date the bets were made and money won ( and money deposited and not refused by casino).

Without a presented limitation/restrition in the beginning by the casino T & C on that date all correct answers/responsabilities must consider those restrictions not valid for this case.

And why request all documents first (as only depending on it to pay ) until arriving to the "different" T & C limitation? And not the opposite at first - even after deposit?

Because it would be a nightmare for the casinos to pre-verify players, and as a result it is done at the time of their first withdrawal to make it efficient. This is when they'll spot any discrepancies.
 

Finn

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Location
Finland
I can't find the term either so it does seem it was added recently.
If so you have a very decent PAB case as they can't apply terms retrospectively.

I must say that common-sense decrees you don't hide your IP from someone who is potentially going to be paying you their money, especially online casinos. It could be used to get bonuses from bonus-banned countries and to play illegally.

Even if the specific VPN ban wasn't in the terms, the casino could argue that adding it was just an extra service to the small minority whose common-sense doesn't tell them that since using VPN conceals your real IP, using VPN is not allowed just like providing any other false or fraudulent information is not tolerated.

If common-sense says that "VPN = IP forgery" it should be pretty easy to find some term that applies from the older version of T&Cs.
 

Tobster

Banned User - Violation of rules 1.10, 1.11
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Germany
Even if the specific VPN ban wasn't in the terms, the casino could argue that adding it was just an extra service to the small minority whose common-sense doesn't tell them that since using VPN conceals your real IP, using VPN is not allowed just like providing any other false or fraudulent information is not tolerated.

If common-sense says that "VPN = IP forgery" it should be pretty easy to find some term that applies from the older version of T&Cs.

I verified my identity multiple times, there is no risk of me being fake or whatever. They can even call the notar and ask about me since i asked him to add all his personal informations to the notarization.
The reason most casinos give why they dont like vpn is to prohibit fraud the way i understand it, but i dont see the risk of fraud in my case because of what i said above, so this doest make sense.
And i stand with my point that there is no valid term that forbids the use of vpn apart from this newly added term 16. I mean this is the reason why they added it, if there was sth forbidding vpn before already, they wouldnt create this additional term to double forbid it. Also in every email i got as an answer they say the reason they dont want to pay is because i violated the term 16, nothing else, only relying on the term 16, if there was any other term i violated they wouldve mentioned it.
 

Finn

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Location
Finland
With some feedback it can be very easy to get extra clarifications added to terms and conditions, whether they are necessary or not.

Let's look at the case of : Markus VS TradaCasino

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/markus-vs-tradacasino-viaden-gaming.48111/?t=48111

Terms and Conditions before this case clearly covered Markus' selfmade casino client hack.

But he tried to be a smart ass with comments like

As an example, this is a specific rule from another casino:

You will place all wagers on Games through the various user interfaces provided on our site and you will not wager through other means, including the use of a "robot" player;
TradaCasino do not have a specific rule like this!

Nowadays TradaCasino actually has exactly this specific rule. Does this mean that TradaCasino conceded that Markus had right to use his selfmade casino client under the previous T&Cs when they copied this specific rule that Markus gave as an example. Of course not.
 
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