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Bogus Complaint imfinn76 VS SmartLive Casino

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by imfinn76, Jun 4, 2012.

    Jun 4, 2012
  1. imfinn76

    imfinn76 Banned User : PAB fraud PABnononaccred PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    bank teller
    Location:
    Ireland
    Hi,
    I'v been a active player for the past few years with SmartLive casino.
    On 2009 I had a win in smartlive, which I was paid after cashout ( 4600 GBP).
    A month after that win, I kept playing in the casino and won again in the roulette.
    This time I reached 11100 GBP BIG win. I made a cashout provided with needed docs
    but never followed the payment by smartlive due to an urgent family matter which I had
    to leave Ireland for 2 years. After I moved again to Ireland I realized SmartLive never processed
    my 11100 GBP withdrawal, so after I contacted their support and provided them with my docs,
    they unlocked my account ( probably due to the long time I didn't use it) and allowed me
    on Feb 2012 to keep playing with my 11100 balance and even add new deposit on top of it
    and keep gambling. I eventually reached 11150 in my balance and made a withdrawal for the full
    amount. Smartlive first refuse to pay, then they offered to pay 1000 , when I refused, they offered
    to pay 2000 and after I refused again, they agreed to pay me in full after my notarized docs were
    approved. For some reason, they eventually processed only 2000 GBP and they still owe me 9150 GBP.
    After contacting casinomeister, to be the third party to investigate, Smartlive raised their offer
    to pay only 1/3 out of my original withdrawal. Which of course, I refused to that idea.
    I could not understand why they refuse to pay me my full withdrawal since I'v been an active
    player during Feb 2012 , but they claim that my withdrawal reffers only to be from 2009 by ignoring
    the fact they allowed me to play and make additional deposits during 2012 just avoid to pay me in full.

    I could not also understand how they reached the conclusion that I need to be paid with only 1/3 of my
    withdrawal... very strange casino behavior !
     
  2. Jun 4, 2012
  3. butterflyboogie

    butterflyboogie Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Making Money
    Location:
    Casino Oblivion
    Quick question, even with you having to move, with that kind of money why didn't you follow up on it back then? That is a lot of money to not follow up on.
     
  4. Jun 5, 2012
  5. harrys99

    harrys99 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bar Business/Office Management
    Location:
    Wherever I Want
    EDIT

    maxd and I were replying about the same time.

    Based on what maxd has outlined below- I would have taken what they offered and walked away. Better something than nothing at this point.
     
  6. Jun 5, 2012
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    An excellent question. With £11,500 (roughly US$18,000) on the line who is unable to find 15 minutes to contact the casino? If for no other reason than to say "I'm out of the country, I'll get back in touch soon" it would have been worthwhile. In 29 months there wasn't 15 spare minutes to do this? The OP's basic claim is that they "forgot" about their casino balance until they returned. "Forgot" about $18k? For almost 2.5 years?!? IMO that's rather hard to believe. And if it were true then perhaps this would be an ideal opportunity to learn to "remember" such things. A stack of Post-It notes costs a couple bucks, might be a worthwhile investment.

    The OP had filed a PAB. After discussions with the casino and the OP the following had come to light:
    • the OP had been booted out of the casino in late 2009 for suspected fraud including connections to other accounts. At that time the OP acknowledged this via email but did nothing to contest it.
    • the casino management changed while the OP was "away".
    • the casino had a long-standing 24-month stale-date clause which the OP exceeded by almost six months. In other words, per the Terms, the OP's balance was forfeit because the casino had heard nothing from the account holder for well over the 24 month stale-date period.
    • the OP claimed "I knew nothing" about the 24-month cut-off.
    • when the OP reappeared the new management was less than completely thorough in their investigation of the OP's old case. There was some confusion in their initial handling of the matter.
    • the new management had given a modest payment (£2000) in the hopes of settling the issue.
    • that settlement was not binding because no formal agreement had been drawn up (no papers signed).

    Given the situation I proposed a new settlement based on a portion of the original amount. The OP is incorrect in saying that the (new) proposed settlement was decided by the casino. I set the amount based on my analysis of the case. This has been made perfectly clear to the OP (more than once) though it seems to be something that is difficult to remember.

    In any case the casino agreed to the new proposal. The OP did not. The PAB died there because I believed the OP had a very poor case and unreasonable expectations.

    FWIW I maintain my position that the casino basically owed the player nothing because of (a) the 2009 account closure and (b) the 24-month stale-date Term(s). That said I believed there had been fault on both sides: the proposed settlement was an effort to draw a fair and reasonable line between the two. As mentioned the OP rejected that settlement, and thus -- IMO -- forfeited the right to any further claims against the casino.

    Finally I think it worth mentioning that while we have had some issues with this casino in the past (see Warnings) they have of late been working to overcome that including being fully forthcoming and cooperative regarding the OP's case.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    11 people like this.
  8. Jun 5, 2012
  9. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    In trying to arrange a settlement fotr the OP it seems Max is giving him/her the benefit of the doubt so I believe 1/3 is quite fair. In these instances where suspected fraud is concerned some casinos refuse to pay out a cent. Unless the industry sets out clearer 'fraud definitions' this excuse will continue to be used by casinos, rogue or not.

    My advice to the OP would be to ask Max whether it is still possible to retain the earlier offer.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Jun 5, 2012
  11. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    And my answer would be "no". That opportunity has come and gone, I have other things to work on. End of story AFAIC. If the casino decides otherwise that is their business.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jun 5, 2012
  13. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    It really irritates me when complainants come here looking for support and then are less than completely frank and honest in their posts. Ommitting important elements in an issue is tantamount to misleading the forum members imo.

    I was about to burst into print supporting this new member and recalling that SmartLive has a weak history until Max gave us the real facts.

    This sort of stuff just wastes everyone's time.

    Edited to add that the policy of confiscating players' balances after the expiry of a dormancy timeframe is one frought with danger imo. I would hope that before such a policy is applied (even if it is in the T&Cs agreed by the player) the casino makes a concerted effort to find the player and remind him of the situation. I think the casino would look better if those sort of monies were paid to a charity rather than taken back into the books as an unexpected windfall.
     
    3 people like this.
  14. Jun 5, 2012
  15. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    In principle I agree with the problems of stale-date policies. In previous cases we've taken the position that such a policy is not fully binding if the casino fails to make a reasonable effort to notify the player of the impending cut-off.

    In this case however the facts are that (a) it was the previous management that handled the account balance, (b) the OP had been booted out of the casino for fraud and had not meaningfully contested that action hence there was no unresolved issue regarding the balance as far as the new management was concerned, and (c) the new management had no reason to believe that the OP's case was anything but done and dusted. This doesn't absolve the new management of its responsibilities -- remember I said that my conclusion was that mistakes had been made on both sides -- but is does add up to some seriously extenuating circumstances, IMO.

    If the new management had (attempted to) informed the OP of the cut-off date then I would have said the OP was 100% responsible for the way things turned out and the casino was off the hook. Since that wasn't the case, and given the other issues involved, I thought a partial settlement more appropriate.
     
    3 people like this.
  16. Jun 5, 2012
  17. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    I know this is besides the point but I'm confused. If the OP already had a balance of 11K why was there any need to make new deposits? He mentioned when he returned he was allowed to play with the 11K and make deposits on top of it? and forgot about that much money for 2.5 years? :eek2:

    Just a side note: That would be smart as a scammer to wait to attempt the withdrawal after that long of a time span has past. In hopes the casino would run into trouble tracking the play or assume that the person couldn't be a scammer after waiting so long for payment. Not saying that's what happened but meh just seems strange :oops: .
     
  18. Jun 5, 2012
  19. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Yes, "smart" indeed. And my thoughts exactly.

    As to the new deposits I seem to recall they were nominal, so too the play thereafter. It was as though someone were testing the waters, you might say, dipping a toe in to see where things were at. Like I've said, the new management guys are not blameless here, IMO. FTR I've discussed this with them in some detail, how they might better handle such a case in the future and possible mods to the Terms etc, and they have been perfectly reasonable and open-minded about it.

    AFAIC the casino made some mistakes and were willing to both pay a fair amount to settle the dispute and make some good changes to tighten up their procedures. They've moved a reasonable distance toward middle ground and responsibility for the PAB's failure to reach a resolution does not lie at their feet. The OP wanted everything and didn't get it: tough noogies IYAM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  20. Jun 14, 2012
  21. imfinn76

    imfinn76 Banned User : PAB fraud PABnononaccred PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    bank teller
    Location:
    Ireland
    Hi, I had to leave Ireland due to urgent family matter ( to be next to my grandfather which been involved in an accident)
    how I were suppose to think about money in such situation...? After he passed away it took me long while to adjust back to
    normal and then I could contact the casino. As you can understand from my case, they took advantage of my family matter
     
  22. Jun 15, 2012
  23. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    With all due respect do you seriously expect people to believe that at no time during your 29 month absence did you have an "oh? what about that 18 grand?" moment? I suggest to you that if you did not then perhaps it wasn't the burning issue you seem to think it is now.

    Or, was it that you had been booted from the casino for fraud back in 2009 so you walked away. Then sometime since you heard that the casino management had changed and you thought you might have a poke to see where things were at. When the casino let you back in -- one of the aforementioned errors on their part -- you figured you might take a stab at seeing if you couldn't get at that old balance of yours. And here we are today.

    I've been dealing with player issues for a few years now and of all the thousands of cases I've seen no one has ever tried to say anything like "I forgot about $18,000 for two and a half years but I'd like it back now please." But that's beside the point because it isn't your money and hasn't been for quite some time: (a) you were booted out of the casino for fraud back in '09 so obviously your winnings were forfeit, and (b) even if there had been a balance you would have forfeited it per the casino's stale-date clause.

    I'm sorry if this seems cold-hearted but contrary to your claim I'd say it's you that is taking advantage of your family matter: you are trying to use it to justify asking the casino to forget everything that happened -- the fraud bust, the Terms violation(s), etc -- and just fork over some cash. How any of that is supposedly the casino's fault or misconduct is pretty much a groundless fabrication AFAICT. From what I can see their only fault was letting you back into your account at all. They should have been more diligent and for that error I would say the proposed settlement was more than sufficient. The fact that that opportunity too has come and gone is, again, no fault but your own.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
    6 people like this.
  24. Sep 6, 2012
  25. imfinn76

    imfinn76 Banned User : PAB fraud PABnononaccred PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    bank teller
    Location:
    Ireland
    Smartlive hide important fact from Max (casinomeister)

    Hi
    This is Kenneth....
    As I read the replys\comments in this forum reg my complaint
    I felt I had to explain (maybe better ) my side of this case.

    As you all know the full details, one very very important info was not provided
    to Max by Smartlive when he started his investigation.
    That was the main reason i could not accept the settlement provided since I felt
    I had to bring this important fact.

    Smartlive never shared the fact that during Feb 2012 they unlocked my casino account
    after accepting my notarized documents and allowed me to play with my 11100 GBP winning
    from 2009. If they did not plan to pay me (and claimed their reason not to pay on 2009), why they unlocked my
    account and allowed me keep gambling ( hoping I will loose probably...?)
    Why they brought their claims about 2009 win only AFTER I played and withdrawed during Feb 2012???

    This obviously shows that Smartlive never treated my win fairly and unlocked my account
    for me either to loose my whole balance to reduce my winning withdrawal !!

    Another reason for me to believe that can not afford to pay large amounts were the fact they
    accepted the 1/3 settlement and urged me to accepted within 48 hours without allowing me to explain
    my side and explorer other options !! Why it had to me in such a short time frame limit ???

    I hope that after reading my side , Smartlive will now finally accept to process the 1/3 settlement
    to close this complain ( even I still believe I'm suppose to be paid in full ) but wish to accept he deal
    after reading the forums responses

    ( As of today - they still refuse to pay )

    Kenneth
     
  26. Sep 6, 2012
  27. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Actually they freely acknowledged this, in fact I believe it was them that brought it up in the first place.

    As previously mentioned management had changed since you left and the new management was not up to speed on your case when you returned. That took some time and ... well the rest is already on record.

    IMO the casino is under no obligation to pay you anything, least of all 1/3 of the money that was confiscated three years. That money ceased to be yours a long time ago, repeatedly denying the facts and reiterating your claims will not be tolerated indefinitely.
     
  28. Sep 6, 2012
  29. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    You seem to care a lot about £2000 for someone who could pass 2.5 years without his £11,500. That's a bit suspicious, to say the least. Have you been in jail? Because that's about the only legit excuse you could have to justify your behaviour (sorry, I'm not buying the out-of-country-for-2.5-years-and-didn't-care-about-$18k-because-my-grandfather-had-an-accident thing).

    That said, that "forfeiture of your money after 2 years" thing is BS and I'd be very curious to see how that would hold up in court. Also, the "new owners" excuse is irrelevant. When they bought the business, they bought the assets and liabilities (ie: players balances) from the previous owners.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Sep 6, 2012
  31. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Until someone does challenge the stale-date clause in court it is a common Term used by casinos and it is something the player agrees to when they sign on. "BS" may be your opinion of it but it is no more BS than any other casino Term and as such is a legitimate point where applicable.

    Similarly the "new owners" thing seems to be something you've misread or misunderstood. The new owners were not saying anything about assets and/or liabilities. They were describing the fact that they had not been up to speed on this particular player's case, as in the details of his being banned from the casino at some previous date, etc. A date which preceded the ownership transfer by some months and since this was a ban and confiscation situation the player's balance would rightly have long since been considered forfeit and thus not part of the balance sheet at the time of transfer.

    Also, you might want to try a different approach with your posts. If I responded to a post of yours saying your points were "BS" and "irrelevant" you might rightly take objection to my tone. Please consider this before clicking "Save" on your replies.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Sep 6, 2012
  33. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    Max, just to set the record straight, I didn't imply that "your" points were BS or irrelevant, I was talking about the casino's (and I know that they aren't alone in this boat). I'm sorry if my tone wasn't appropriate. I strongly dislike the fact that online casinos get away with ridiculous terms and conditions that aren't acceptable anywhere else. I don't want to hijack the thread any further.
     
  34. Sep 6, 2012
  35. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    NP, I didn't think you were hijacking at all! You're more than welcome to go after shabby Terms but we do need to be specific, no? I'm more than happy to discuss this, I just ask that we be civil -- it's me talking here, not the casino, hence my understanding that your objections were directed at me -- and that we try to be precise about what we're objecting to. Within those parameters I'd say have at it! :thumbsup:
     
    2 people like this.
  36. Sep 7, 2012
  37. GOCC

    GOCC Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    Housewife
    Location:
    UK
    Actually, the 2 year clause is BS

    And doesnt need challenging in court.

    The Statute of Limitations Act (1980) means that any debt that goes un-acknowledge for more than SIX YEARS (NOT 2)can not be legally pursued through a court. As their term states 2, it would automatically be deemed and Unfair Term.

    Just because its in some Casinos Terms and Conditions doesn't not alleviate the OPs Statutory Rights as a consumer. The casino is governed by the UK Gambling Commission and as such, UK Law. Therefore, no 2 year get out clause is allowed.
     
  38. Sep 7, 2012
  39. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    That is true, but this is not a debt; secured/unsecured or otherwise.

    Its a balance, and this clause where a balance can we wiped out completely after quite a short period of time is more common than you'd think even outside of the casino world (share dealing/financial accounts etc). And its fine (in the sense its in the terms and conditions, not that I agree with it neccesarily).

    Statute Of Limitations has no bearing on or relevance to this situation.

    As it goes, there's clearly something way off the mark about this guy - kudos to Max for even helping out to this extent.
     
    1 person likes this.

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