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I was unaware of this scam

Discussion in 'Poker Complaints' started by Beenhad, Aug 17, 2006.

    Aug 17, 2006
  1. Beenhad

    Beenhad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Customer Care Rep.
    Location:
    California
    I was playing my usual rounds of poker when someone known as "playa73" started chatting me up. After a short chat he told me he wanted to lose $1000 to me. When asked why, he claimed he needed the money in a hurry and cashing out takes longer, than the timeframe he was on, allowed.
    So he said he'd lose the money to me and I'd send him $600 and I could keep the $400 as a "thank you" for doing him this favor.

    It sounded quite suspect but I thought, "hey if he loses the money to me there is no way he can steal it back. How could this go wrong?"
    Sure enough he purposely loses $1000 to me raising big, making folds to a reraise and by letting me know what cards he had. Once I have the $1000 into my account I think, "wow, this guy is serious...". (As a side note: this was on Paradise's 1v1 tables and I in no way affected other players)

    So I wire him the money and the next day I can't log into Paradise Poker. I write to them asking "what happened" and they wrote me back saying that I had provided the incorrect address that did not match up with my Neteller account; this much is true, however I only provided the wrong address to try and avoid some of the spam mail I have been receiving from other casinos. All the other information including city, state, name, etc. was correct. So after they receive a copy of my drivers license, utility bill and copy of my bank account statement to verify my info, their security team writes back:

    "...The [funds] in your account were deliberately lost to you by a player who had obtained the funds fraudulently, and these funds have been returned to their origin. Your account on Paradise will remain closed.
    Regards,
    Shane
    Paradise Poker Security"

    So this guy SOMEHOW defrauded either someone else on the website, or the website itself, out of $1000 and they in turn confiscated the $1000 away from me. After asking them how it could be that this person has an illegitimate $1000 in his account, they replied with their usual pissy-tone that they would not go into anymore detail with me and that they considered the matter closed.

    So I imagine I'm screwed and have no real recourse or hope for getting my money back.

    Any insight, comments? (Please keep them light on criticism as I already feel like a moron)
     
  2. Aug 17, 2006
  3. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Moral of the story:

    If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

    You have no recourse here. What you guys did is against the terms of ANY poker room; online or off. At most, they need to return any balance left in your account *before* you sat down and played with this person.

    [edit]But then again, you tried to defraud them...in their eyes, how do they know you won any previous money fair and square?

    It really doesn't matter where he got the money, so they really have no reason to give that information out...
    [edit]The reason it doesn't matter where he got the money is because you broke their terms...plain and simple.


    Last edit: You know chats are monitored, right? I wouldn't doubt it if someone from Paradise was there watching you the whole time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  4. Aug 17, 2006
  5. Beenhad

    Beenhad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Customer Care Rep.
    Location:
    California
    So if he had used the "transfer money" option it would have been okay? Losing purposefully is still bad even when it affects no other players?

    People should still know how it is this guy defrauded the website or another person so as to avoid this scam themselves in the future.

    Edit: grammar
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  6. Aug 17, 2006
  7. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    In a sense, yes, it may have gotten by them if he just simply transferred the money to your account.

    True, but if they published this information, there would be more people trying to run the scam...if not at paradise, then elsewhere. Not everyone would read that information about the scam. For instance, it's all over the web NOT to give any password out to strangers, but yet you hear about people giving out their passwords all the time.
     
  8. Aug 17, 2006
  9. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Neteller account Hijacked at this site

    I posted about 2 months ago about my Neteller account being hijacked at Paradise poker and how Paradise refused to acknowledge that it was at thier site that someone was trying to remove funds from my account.

    I guess now they are taking it more seriously that they just might have some kind of glitch in thier software where people can actually steal information of other players from this site, for this is where all the tries to withdraw large amount of funds originated in my Neteller account and I proved this to them and they still called me a liar, even with proof.

    Go figure, must be happening a lot more it seems and they are finally taking notice. Shame on you Paradise!

    And shame on you Beenhad for even thinking of going along with this kind of con job. If it happened to you where all your funds just dissapeared out of your account, would you be so complecent as you are now about doing what you did?
    You do deserve to lose your money to the shyster for even thinking about joining up with him in this kind of scheme for I believe deep down inside you knew he was trying to pull something but yet, you went along with it which makes you just as bad IMO. :sniper:
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Aug 17, 2006
  11. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I think the scammer used a stolen credit card (or other stolen deposit method) or someone chip dumped to him that used one. They also may have colluded at another table. He knew he could not get the money out himself since the funds were fraudulant so he had find another way. NEVER allow someone to chip dump to you and NEVER fall for "I'll trade you $x at x Poker Room for $x at x processor". These almost always turn out to be scams where either the Paypal/Neteller money is fraudulant or the poker room money is. Then the poker room thinks you are a scammer too and as you found out close your account and seize your funds.

    Fraud is a massive issue at online poker rooms just as I am sure it is for casinos and sportsbooks. Players open up fraudulant accounts and chip dump to their friends or pull this scam posted above to try and get the money out. Even if he had just transfered the money to you Paradise still would have confiscated the funds, they may not have closed your account though. If you had won the money fair and square at a regular table it is extremely unlikely they would have done anything to you even if you won fraudulant money. It is just a part of every day business for the poker rooms. The fact that this money was lost intentionally at a heads up table and chatted about made it an easy decision for Paradise to close your account.

    Just ignore the chat and people begging for money or phishing for scams. Play straight up poker and you will not run into issues. It is a shame there is so much fraud in the poker rooms. This causes higher rake and fewer bonuses for us honest players as the rooms have to waste resources on fraud/security departments and eat much of the fraud they do not catch right away.
     
    3 people like this.
  12. Aug 17, 2006
  13. NoMouthToScream

    NoMouthToScream Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Employed
    Location:
    USA
    As someone slightly mentioned above, if the roles were reversed and you lost $1000, I bet you would want to get these funds back. The truth of the matter is, these scammers continue to thrive, because someone will eventually bite.

    Moral of the story:

    If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.


    How true.
     
  14. Aug 18, 2006
  15. Beenhad

    Beenhad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Customer Care Rep.
    Location:
    California
    Great, so I got robbed and I'm the bad guy...

    Look, I'm not a bad guy for being duped. Naive and too trusting? Yes, but bad, no.

    I'am also glad the person who was originally duped in some fashion got their money back. Nonetheless, it is not my problem that Paradise Poker has a security flaw; they should be the ones who have to eat it for their inept security, not myself or the other victim.
     
  16. Aug 18, 2006
  17. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    No sympathy from me either im afraid. The internet is full of scams and you only add petrol to the fire by your greed.

    A very wise man once said "You cant con and honest man"

    Hopefully you have learnt from this loss and will be less trusting of strangers in the future.

    And compared to the vast sums of money some folks lose to scams its a cheap lesson really.

    And any pokersite that catches ANY player dumping chips will usually freeze both accounts (Usually for the exact reason that you got scammed with, ie stolen credit cards/fraud)
     
  18. Aug 18, 2006
  19. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    Collusion is another reason why you will get your account locked an funds seized by the site.
     
  20. Aug 18, 2006
  21. NoMouthToScream

    NoMouthToScream Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Employed
    Location:
    USA
    If indeed paradise poker does have a security flaw that was compromised, this should have been the subject of the conversation, rather than you joined ranks with a person to gain $400 because "apparently" he had problems cashing out.

    Let's say paradise had a security flaw, check if any others have experienced this particular problem, with funds being lost. Surely the person who lost the $1000 wasn't the only one. I want a secure poker site as much as the next person.

    P.S. Would you have reported this security flaw if paradise didn't take your $1000?
     
  22. Aug 18, 2006
  23. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I fail to see the security flaw you describe. A player chip dumped money he stole most likely from a stolen CC or Neteller account. He then dump it off. This drew a red flag sent to their security where they investigated and caught someone chip dumping fraudulantly obtained funds by reviewing the hands and the chat. If this player had lost this money to you fair and square then it is very doubtful they would have taken the funds from you. Since you openly discussed chip dumping and openly discussed dealt cards it was obvious to them you were in on the scam. It was an easy and obvious choice to take the fraudulant funds from you. Why should they then reward you by letting you keep funds you obviously obtained violating the T&C's on the site? It does not matter whether you intended to defraud them, you participated in a fraud.

    From their site:

    You both manipulated the game and participated in payment fraud. There was obviously a reason the player needed to chip dump instead of cashing out a legit way. You were helping him bypass the legit way of cashing out.

    It seems to me their security is just fine, they caught this scam red handed didn't they?
     
  24. Aug 18, 2006
  25. Beenhad

    Beenhad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Customer Care Rep.
    Location:
    California
    Specious at best but nowhere near wise.

    Good, honest people are the biggest targets of con artists if only for the reason that they want to help and are very trusting.

    Meanwhile, you guys are projecting your anger towards the scumbag who stole the credit card, hacked a person's account, or whatever he did to steal $1000, onto me. Well SORRY for unknowingly f***ing being complicit with some low-life internet criminal.

    Christ...
     
  26. Aug 20, 2006
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    An old scam

    This is just the internet version of the so called "Nigerian fraud". This is where an ex member of the Nigerian government (or any other country undergoing political turmoil) will approach people in order to help the move a sum of money out of the country. They will have a suitable "victim" story to convince you it is they who have been wronged, and will offer you a cut in order to use your bank accounts to move the money.
    A similar one, which is probably closer to how this one worked, is to pay for something with a company check, but claim that your "stupid secretary" made it out for too large an amount, and it is too inconvenient to get it changed in time to complete the deal, and ask that you accept the check and pay back the difference, keeping an amount for yourself for your troubles.
    This has been known on eBay, who tightened up, only for victims to be hit by a fraud that used the new tighter eBay rules to rip off victims by the fraudsters themselves pretending to be the victims!
    All work on the premise that the source of the original funds are fraudulent, and that they will be able to launder a percentage back into clean funds by using a naive and helpful victim as a conduit. When the original fraud is discovered, the hope is that the victim had already forwarded the percentage before finding out that the original amount never existed as genuine funds. The original fraudster does not care about getting caught, as they have already passed the money over, and got the percentage, and their own account would be empty when locked.
    Sadly, Paradise are bound to return the original 1K to the rightful owner, and since they still have it on account they take it from there.
    The legal issue is between "beenhad" and the original perpetrator of the fraud. One way to approach this is to obtain a court disclosure order against Paradise poker in order that you may pursue the fraudster through the courts. Depending on where he REALLY lives, this could become a criminal matter and police can make an arrest and bring a criminal case.

    The best thing to do is never take part in these private arrangements as the vast majority, if not all, are some kind of fraud rather than someone in genuine need. (Pity about those really in genuine need of this type of help, as the fraudsters have made it very unwise for them to be helped in any way). Sadly, the honest are the easiest to con, and only learn better when they have been "had", or watch the right TV programs! I was "had" once for 2:mad: , and watch the right TV programs:D
    I have been "had" far more often by big "reputable" companies than individuals.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Aug 20, 2006
  29. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    In your own words...you knew it was something odd.....and yet you sit there and say your innocent??
    Be real...YOU KNEW but yet you went ahead and did it...and YOU are now pissed cause YOU got caught on the short end of the stick, just where you belong...
     
  30. Aug 20, 2006
  31. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Yep. That's exactly right.
     
  32. Aug 20, 2006
  33. Beenhad

    Beenhad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Customer Care Rep.
    Location:
    California
    A big thanks to Vinylweatherman who finally provided a useful and insightful post .:thumbsup:

    Meanwhile, back in hindsight-is-20/20-ville:
    Yup, you knew exactly what I was thinking and I knew exactly how he received the ill-gotten funds. Short end of the stick where I belong? WTF is that?! "That girl deserved to be raped! With what she was wearing she was asking for it!" Yeesh...


    Already refuted once and vinylweatherman's post seems to agree.

    Anyhow vinylweatherman (or anyone else who actually decides to be of any use) what route do you think I should take? Private investigator? Lawyer? Any insight into who would be helpful in tracking down this low-life or any organizations that would be willing to lend a helping hand?
     
  34. Aug 20, 2006
  35. 1819

    1819 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    retired athlete
    Location:
    ny,nj,fla
    comparing trying to make a quick buck and being raped is insane. you have no recourse. you tryed to get over and got burned. blame is on you. learn your lesson and move on. dont pretend thet your were just trying to help someone out. please...
     
  36. Aug 20, 2006
  37. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    If you wanted to take it to that extent, I'm sure you could file charges with the court, then ask for all records pertaining to this person from Paradise. They would have no choice but to comply with a court order.

    Why bother though? I could guarantee it's going to cost more than the $600 you're out to pursue this....and even then you're not guaranteed to win.

    ...And that's assuming he actually gave Paradise his real information when signing up; which I'm sure he didn't. Sure, you can get the IP addresses he's used to login to Paradise, but then you're going to need another court order to give the ISP so they can release the information as to who it actually is.


    PS: I too can't believe you're comparing this to someone getting raped.

    PPS: Did you end up getting the balance that was in your account prior to playing with this person returned to you? If not, I think that's what you need to be concerned with more than chasing this guy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
  38. Aug 20, 2006
  39. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies

    The base of all these cons is greed. Greed to the extent of over riding common sense and decency.
     
    1 person likes this.

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