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i need legal advice about an online casino

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by dreamtheatre, Aug 19, 2006.

    Aug 19, 2006
  1. dreamtheatre

    dreamtheatre Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Turkey
    i have applied my bank concerning unauthorized withdrawals from my credit card by an online casino about two months ago. the bank reversed the withdrawals and i was a happy man. the amount in question was $6.600

    but now my bank calls me and tells that i have to pay this sum plus an interest because the online casino's bank admits that the withdrawals were indeed unauthorized but they(the casino) had already paid back them to my credit card. At first i could not understand what the bank clerk was talking about. Then it became clear.

    My actual winnings at this casino were close to the withdrawals made by this casino and i had always withdrawn my winnings to the same credit card. I tried to explain to the bank clerk that those were my winnings i had earned in this casino by playing poker against other casino members (not against the casino but other members) but she insists that i have to pay . she says there is no way i can prove that these are my winnings . as far as the bank is concerned unauthorized withdrawals were made but then returned.

    Do i have a legal case ? If i win at an online casino can they withdraw the amount that i have won and i cant do anything. Would appreciate any help.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Aug 19, 2006
  3. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    If you can prove that your deposits + winnings were indeed ~$13k (where they should be....d+w), then I think you would have a case.....If not in court, then to prove to the bank.

    I guess you don't have access to this casino/poker room anymore? That really would make it hard; unless you can get all of your transaction history from them.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Aug 19, 2006
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Track the money

    The best way would seem to be to establish an audit trail for the money. Depositing from the bank and receiving on the card similar amounts does not necessarily prove the bank's case. What is more important is whether the money taken from the bank, authorised or not, made it to your casino account and/or poker accounts, and contributed to the money that went back to the card.
    If the software has any kind of statement facility, such as Microgaming Cashcheck, I would suggest obtaining ALL the records from a while before the incidents in question to the current time, at which point you should clean out the casino and poker accounts such that they have a zero balance to act as a reference point. Since the casino seem to have wronged you, you should then quit playing, but do not let them know that you are investigating this till you have got all the records you are likely to need.

    With records of deposits from bank to casino, casino to card, and your bank statement itself, it should be possible to trace each separate sum of money through the system, and see if at the end of it you have money missing.
    If the bank statement shows a withdrawal to the casino, but the casino statement does not show a corresponding deposit of the amount for you to play, then it can easily be established that the funds returned to the card are not the funds that came from the bank, but funds that were generated from either winnings, or other deposits.

    If you have the money, and the bank is asking for it back, it is up to the bank to prove the case that the money returned to the card is the money taken from the bank. Depending on where the casino is regulated, they can be pursued by the bank, yourself, or both.

    One option could be to change banks, and let the bank fight the case. It depends on how the Turkish system works. In the UK, a bank could "confiscate" money from another account you have with them to offset their grievance (this happened to a friend of mine). If you have the money elsewhere, the bank cannot do this, and they will be the ones that have to pursue the matter.

    If you can show that the casino is at fault, then try pitching a bitch to Bryan with the evidence. He may be able to extract account records that will help track the money. Sometimes this can happen where players deposit at a casino, but the casino takes ages to collect the money from the bank or card. This confuses the player, and is a neat defence for the errant casino to try to hide behind. This is why I suggested going further back in the records, even to the point of joining the casino if within the last couple of years.
    I have had deposits hit my bank nearly a month after the deposits at the casino. I did just as I have suggested here, and was able to marry them all together, and show that in my case the casino had not actually had too much in the end.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Aug 20, 2006
  7. dreamtheatre

    dreamtheatre Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Turkey
    another talk with the bank

    the casino has closed my account long ago so i cannot get anything from them.

    i talked with the credit card rep. of the bank personally. She said that there are about 100 cases similiar to mine concerning the same casino . So i am not alone and their policy is to subtract the winnings from the unauthorized withdrawals and if the withdrawals exceed the winnings return the difference to the credit card owner.

    In my case the winnings and the withdrawals are close tyo each other. But there is another case where the wihdrawals in the last 3 months is about 50.000 dollars while the winnings are about 18.000 dollars . Although the bank returned 50k to this man(whom i personally know) in the beginning now they want 18k back.

    The bank rep. insists that they believe i am right. and she is on my side(which i doubt). but she says there is nothing to do because the casino's bank wants the money back. and according to visa card rules i have to pay it back.
     
  8. Aug 20, 2006
  9. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    So how about naming this casino so others can stay away at all costs?!
     
    2 people like this.
  10. Aug 20, 2006
  11. bossplayer

    bossplayer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    medical
    Location:
    Kansas
    Yep, definitely need to know the casino name on this one.... seems very strange.
     
  12. Aug 20, 2006
  13. frufrugirl

    frufrugirl Senior Member

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    NorthWest USA
    This does seem strange - unauth withdrawl of xx.xx dollars....reverse of withdrawl back into account is xx.oo? How can the bank be saying apples are oranges? This bank should be on alert and investigating the casino with withdrawl/deposit blocks..100 is a high amount of unauthorized withdrawls and the amounts sound like they arnt peanuts..
    Hopefully all your old accounts are closed and new ones elsewhere opened...good advice from Vinylweatherman about records-

    I do have one suggestion though..now that the bank is demanding that you pay them..your personal assets maybe in danger. Obtaining the records in a timely manner maybe critical, you may want to obtain a lawyer to write a letter to the casino asking for records to substantiate their demands for payment if they are not responding immediately to your own requests for them. Also send a copy of this letter to the bank so they know you are taking action regarding the their request for funds!

    Going to Bryan would be excellent for obtaining records but I dont think it would calm the bank. A letter from a lawyer to the bank stating a third party is investigating the matter and requesting records may help if you decide to go with Bryan and his posse first. He sure has a good track record!

    This is just my personal opinion from personal experience with creditors and identify theft...

    Best wishes to you..
     
  14. Aug 20, 2006
  15. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I would almost bet the banker was pulling a number out of her ass when she said 100 just to make it sound like this was a big problem....A nice way of saying that they couldn't/wouldn't devote time to investige the charges to his account. I'd almost bet they're thinking along the lines that they've got a better chance of getting the money from him rather than the casino.

    PS: Is this the fallout from the problems you had at kaave?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
  16. Aug 20, 2006
  17. frufrugirl

    frufrugirl Senior Member

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    NorthWest USA
    True....100 was more than likely random but may be representative of complaints regarding the Casino..All Im saying is you dont mess around with bank when they are demanding payment..protect yourself by keeping them informed. (keep your enemies close)
    This situation happened to me here in the us with a online company. My account was debited randomly..to this day I still have no way of knowing how they got my account number..but..after demanding records from the company (to no avail) a letter from my lawyer (it shut the bank up) and a few hundred new complaints coming in..the bank finally blocked transactions from this company and launched a criminal investigation like they should have done in the first place. My account was finally credited the amount due but it still rankles me that the bank left the investigation to me in the beginning. I had a home loan , car loan and other accounts with this bank and I didnt want to have this payment affect my credit rating or loan status.

    I have had other problems with identify theft and have long learned to create a paper trail to cover my behind. Telephone conversations are useful for conversation documentation but arnt worth poo when it gets down to proof..you need to get promises in writing!!:cool:
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 21, 2006
  19. dreamtheatre

    dreamtheatre Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Turkey
    Some more explanation

    i did not name the casino because it is a local (Turkish) online casino and you are very unlikely to play there. The name of the casino is kaave.com. It is already in the rogue list on Casinomeister and has F- rating pokerreview.com.


    there is a local website for ex kaave.com members in my position so i can acknowledge that there are more than 250 applications to Turkish banks concerning kaave.com. My bank is the biggest bank in Turkey so it is normal
    that there are about 100.

    i agree that the bank finds it easier to take the funds from me rather than the casino's bank. So i withdrew all my funds from this bank But the bank says that they will write the amount in question(6600 dollars) to my credit card as a debt and they will start legal activities if i dont pay. i am determined to find a lawyer but i talked to a few lawyers and all of them said that they were very unfamiliar with the matter and could not comment on the chance of my success.

    The bank says that kaave.com has sent them their records. But i believe the bank clerks are trying to make me say things i should not say. They made me send them a written statement telling that i indeed was a member of kaave.com and the deposits to my card were my actual winnings. And a lawyer i talked with said that i should not have done this.

    I will appreciate any advice . I am concentrating on posts where legal advice is written .I am reading all the posts daily and very carefully . Thanks everybody.
     
  20. Aug 21, 2006
  21. dreamtheatre

    dreamtheatre Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Turkey
    if anyone knows a website where i can find free legal advice i would appreciate he/she writes it down.

    And by the way thanks to the casinomeister member who suggested me to play at hollywoodpoker. com. Their support is perfect.
     
  22. Aug 21, 2006
  23. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Dreamtheatre,

    Glad to know you are still posting here. How is your boyfriend doing at poker? Pretty good, I hope.

    I cant offer any advice on this subject as my knowledge is limited but Bryan, Jetset, Simmo and other forum members are an awesome bunch and may be able to offer sound advice. Remember to stick with the poker sites accredited here. At least you can get the casinomeister's help if anything goes astray.
     
  24. Aug 21, 2006
  25. dreamtheatre

    dreamtheatre Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Turkey
    hi Chuchu. Glad you remember us.

    We are keeping on fighting the good fight with kaave.com. We have much contrubition in the number of bank applications.

    In the mean time kaave.com is keeping on confiscating members funds and sending veiled threats.

    I hope the members you mentioned read this post and provide some legal counselling.

    Have a nice day
     
  26. Aug 21, 2006
  27. frufrugirl

    frufrugirl Senior Member

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    NorthWest USA
    I appreciate you wanting a free legal website but arent you dealing specifically with turkish law? Maybe find someone in turkey who deals with internet fraud (thats what this is) and start a class action(group lawsuit) with other kaave members to keep the costs down? Best wishes
     
  28. Aug 21, 2006
  29. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Just need to remember, there may be people lurking in the background that would like to know the name too, that may be from Turkey, or play at Turkish casinos.....:)

    Thanks for naming it.
     
  30. Aug 22, 2006
  31. frufrugirl

    frufrugirl Senior Member

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    NorthWest USA
    legal websites

    Dreamtheatre... I just came across a website.. worldlawdirect.com maybe it has some helpful info.:)
     
    1 person likes this.

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