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Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by jjezebel37, Jan 9, 2012.

    Jan 9, 2012
  1. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)
    Ok guys, i am fuming to say the least. I know it is accredited here but i am raging.

    I made a depo on Wed 4th of £25 and was able to withdraw £500 after wagering, brill says i.....NOT


    After two days and no contact, they then sent me a mail stating, thankyou for your withdrawal 'SHOULD' we need any docs we will be in contact. No email came and i went to live help and asked about withdrawal. They came back saying they were were waiting on my docs...ok, i never revied email but i sent them anyways.


    I sent my passport, my virginmedia landline utility bill AND a recent bank statement.

    Today, i received the following mail


    hi xxxxxxxx

    My name is Laure and i am contacting you on behalf of our player security department.

    We would like to thank you in your efforts in sending your documents to us, unfortunately there are some outstanding documents in order for your withdrawal to be processed.

    Would you kindly send us a clearer copy of your utility bill that was sent. The document was part in colour and the rest was black.

    You can scan and send this document to the following address: This email is not visible to you.


    I thank you for your time and patience in this regard.

    Kind regards

    Laure
    Casino Desk

    Please contact us on the following numbers for further assistance.


    Now,i have been using the EXACT same docs for 32red group,rival and RTG without any issue, so i phoned and i spoke to a manager.

    I told him everything and he asked for a copy of my documents. He then emailed me to say that

    1..they did not accept mobile bill statements,excuse me, this is my landline utility bill

    2 that my bank statement at the very bottom, the words were hazy, now, this is not even part of the statement,everything is VERY c;ear.


    So any help guys, i am really pee'ed of, i only played there because it was accredited.

    I must add that he asked if i had any other utillity bills, no i don't,i pay my electricity and gas by card but surely my virgin media phone bill is enough???

    Ps the passport was accepted.
     
  2. Jan 9, 2012
  3. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)
    Ok, after i spoke, i got another mail


    Georgina, we had spoken earlier today regarding the document request that is currently on your account.

    I have had a chat with the Player Security Division and that have provided me the details regarding the document requirement on your account.



    They have advised that:



    - The ID was received and accepted.

    - The Utility Bill from the Mobile Operator was received and unfortunately was not accepted. Regrettably they do not accept Mobile Operator Statements.

    - The Bank Statement was received and unfortunately not accepted.



    Please could you review the Bank Statement by checking your sent mails and confirm what I have just said.



    Georgina, please could you kindly provide us a Utility Bill - Water Lights or Gas Bill in order to resolve the matter.



    I would like to apologize for any frustration and/or inconvenience and we hope to have this matter resolved as soon as possible.



    Should you have any further queries in future, no matter how big or how small, please do not hesitate to contact us.



    Thank you for playing at the Fortune Lounge Group.



    Kind regards



    The said bill IS my Virgin Media landline bill, NOT a mobile bill.

    I have looked at the copy i have of my bank statement and indeed, the printing at the very very bottom is doubled (as in there is double writing) but that is a genuine copy that i actually went into the bank and requested AND had to pay a fiver for...grrrr, i'm upset!!
     
  4. Jan 9, 2012
  5. bsilva028

    bsilva028 Banned : multi-account fraudster PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    salesman
    Location:
    portugal
    try talk to the rep. here, i have sent my docs to them and the bank statement was accepted and it was in .pdf mode


     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Jan 9, 2012
  7. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)

    Thanks,i don't have online banking (long story), i did pm...wil lwait for a replu
     
  8. Jan 9, 2012
  9. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)
    Anyone???


    Do casinos accept utility bills in PDF???



    thanks
     
  10. Jan 9, 2012
  11. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US

    Yes they do.

    I hope this works out for you.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jan 9, 2012
  13. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)

    thanks, me too, i just sent a PDF of my virgin media utility bill, i will also be set up for online banking tommorrow, so hopefully, i can send a PDF of that too.
     
  14. Jan 9, 2012
  15. bsilva028

    bsilva028 Banned : multi-account fraudster PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    salesman
    Location:
    portugal
    if you dont have online banking you can scan a bank statement in .pdf if you wanna know some programs that do that talk to me by pm to not post links of any programs in public
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Jan 9, 2012
  17. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)

    Thanks very much but i will be set up tommorrow. What i don't understand is all the fuss over the color of my utility bill, it's all in black and white in my eyes. I have never had this problem with documents before. I really laughed when they said they did not accept mobile bills, this is my land line phone bill that i sent.
     
  18. Jan 9, 2012
  19. Seventh777

    Seventh777 RIP Roy

    Occupation:
    Builder, mainly renovations.
    Location:
    Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
    Biting my tongue here, aaaargh, it`s no use I have to let go..........

    All this crap is basically down to three things - 1). To prevent under-age gambling. 2). To prevent player fraud using stolen credit cards etc. 3). To prevent multi account abuse.

    Have a long hard think over the above actions.

    Okay, have we all had a good long think?.

    Now, when the f**k were any of the above breached? at the time of deposit or at the time of withdrawal?, so why dear God do these *hurdles* only ever arise when a player tries to withdraw?.

    Now my tongue is bleeding grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

    P.S.

    Any decent iphone will take a picture in max resolution that when emailed to yourself and opened will give a picture as good, if not, a whole heap better than most scanners will produce.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  20. Jan 9, 2012
  21. bsilva028

    bsilva028 Banned : multi-account fraudster PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    salesman
    Location:
    portugal
    to prevent what? lol
    check this (it happened with me)
    i send my documents and a statement that was downloaded from pdf from the site of my bank.
    documents accepted bank statement rejected

    i made a "rename" of the file and put "scanned bank statement", i re-send the same file but with other name

    it was aproved !!!
    lol
    its ridiculous dont accept a downloaded invoice / bank statement, because they have the same value that the invoice of phisical adress have

    ask to any casino to send to you a phisical receipt of all your deposites to your phisical adress
    instead of send the receipt to e-mail


     
  22. Jan 9, 2012
  23. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)

    I agree, i went to live help and i was told that they would accept a PDF of my utility bill and i sent that. I was then sent a mail saying that they woulld only accept a scanned PDF,,so conflicting!!
     
  24. Jan 9, 2012
  25. bsilva028

    bsilva028 Banned : multi-account fraudster PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    salesman
    Location:
    portugal
    do that
    rename the utility bill to scanned and they will accept

    i know its ridiculous but its true
     
  26. Jan 10, 2012
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is simply taking the piss. It should NOT be happening.

    It is delay and inconvenience for the sake of it.

    They first reject a document, and then accept the SAME document for no other reason than it's file name has been changed. Apart from inconveniencing the player, this has NO merit whatsoever in enhancing security. The player who IS trying to trick the system will simply rename the files before sending them the first time.

    It also shows a lack of consistency in the process of verification, as it seems that acceptance or rejection depends on the individual who is on duty at the time the documents have been checked.

    They are also constantly rejecting the Virgin bill for no good reason other than the fact that Virgin ALSO provide mobile phones to customers. In fact, mobile phones is a small part of the business. Fixed installations of cable TV, broadband, and landlines are the BULK of their business, and the expansion into mobile phones is a relatively recent addition designed to offer their fixed line customers all their services on one account.

    If the casino had bothered to READ the bill, it would have been clear it was a landline, as the front page would bill for a Belfast landline number, not a mobile one.

    Some in colour, the rest is black. More bullshit. I know of no scanner or camera capable of taking a photo this way. Part of the bill would be black because it was printed in black ink. Black is a colour. Colour is often used only for the company logo, billing is often then printed in black.

    Scanned PDF - MORE bullshit. PDF is ALREADY a computer file, it has effectively already been "scanned". Simply writing "here is my scanned PDF from my bank" seems to be all it takes for the casino to accept the document previously rejected.

    PDF is the industry standard for all billing and banking account statements for accounts and services managed online. The PDF mimics the statement that would be posted to the "luddites" that still refuse to modernise, save trees, and pay less for their services. Such "luddites" are also likely to shun online casinos in favour of their local B & M establishment. Online casinos therefore, are going to have MORE customers who "do everything online" than the average for a population, as a big barrier to playing online is a willingness to trust the internet with "real money".

    They are even rejecting a document that has been obtained in person at the bank, for which a fee of £5 was paid, and only because some inconsequential text at the bottom didn't print properly on the branch printer. This happens all the time with printed media, it is just how things are with mass produced printing. Companies do not "pulp" a print run just because of some minor error, and common sense people believe this is the right way to manage finite resources.

    There is even public outrage when news of a mass "pulping" of a publication or leaflet campaign comes out and it is found to be down to some minor reason that does not affect the message being conveyed.

    It seems that we have learned something, don't use common sense, try to give the casinos what they want to read, even if this means a slight drift from the truth. If you only have an online utility account, use the PDF bill, but DON'T actually tell the casino, but say something like "scanned PDF utility bill" in the description. Just because YOU didn't scan it, and it is unlikely the company actually printed it onto REAL paper just to scan it to PDF, it COULD have been done, and would have made no difference whatsoever to the document.

    Remember, this is all about proof of address, and this is the bit that needs to be on any utility bill for it to be accepted. For a multi-page bill, it is only this header page that they want to see. I use my landline bill, and ONLY send the summary page of what is a 4 page statement. This is the page where I am addressed by name and address, but only a summary of the actual charges is shown.
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Jan 10, 2012
  29. fortunelounge

    fortunelounge I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Operations Manager
    Location:
    South Africa
    I am pleased to report that jjezebel37 contatcted me via PM and the issue has been resolved.

    Wim
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Jan 10, 2012
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Good,

    How about getting some common sense drummed into CS so that it doesn't happen again.

    Train the cashiers to expect more in the way of PDF statements from "online only" discount utility companies, landline providers, and banks. Have them develop ways to recognise whether the PDF is a genuine bill from said company.

    If all else fails, implement a new policy of posting something to the player yourselves that they have to verify receipt of that can ONLY be done if they have received it. This could be done by sending a PIN number that has to be inserted into their account in order to activate withdrawals. Another might be to send their first withdrawal as a cheque, although these will no longer exist in the UK after 2018, and have already died out elsewhere.

    This will only need to be done for some players where the current checks still leave room for doubt.

    Persisting with the old system only means players just have to be a bit savvy by printing off their PDF on their home printer, scanning it, and sending it off. It seems simply claiming it has been scanned can be enough. This is clear evidence that the document is exactly the same in appearance however sent by the utility company, with casinos having no way to determine who printed it off, the company or the player. Worse, the bank statement was LESS clear because it WAS printed off by the bank and sent to the customer, rather than having been produced at home from the online statement. The bank branch have probably not aligned the colour cartridge correctly, thus it produces this "double printing" effect.

    Fake bills will also be just as fake if knocked up into a PDF rather than printed off and scanned direct from photoshop (other fraudulent document generating software is also available:))
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Jan 10, 2012
  33. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)
    The fact remains. The original landline bill (virgin media) was sent and rejected because said doc has some color in it...hmmmm,that really confused the hell outta me because the same said document which sitting on my lap at the time was in grey blackand white??

    Communication is really bad at this casino,i actually had 3 different support CM's send me completely and utterly different storys.

    I sent doc 5 times only to be told by one that they were not received, another who started asking me for a different utility billand another who told me that it was my bank statement.

    I actually went into my bank today and gave off because i had been given a statement were the address at the bottom was blurred,(only because i had paid a fiver for it)

    Wim has tried kindly to help me and told me payment had been processed today,i also received mail confirming my docs but to date payment is still in process. I can only be fair and say that he is trying.

    Still, almost a week for a withdrawal, my longest ever!!
     
  34. Jan 10, 2012
  35. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)

    I actually have a virgin mobile (contract) as well,,,,,it clearly states on logo Virgin Mobile. Virginmedia is the logo for land line. High end security who cannot differentiate from the two concerns me.
     
  36. Jan 11, 2012
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I have just looked at my own Virgin Media bills, and the problem may be that Virgin place an advert on every one for their latest mobile deal for existing customers. This is an ADVERT, not an indication that the bill itself is for a mobile phone. The services being charged for are only listed on the second page, whereas it is the address page that casinos want for verification. It is down to their security team not knowing what a utility bill for this company should look like. For many, they have the entire package, so their broadband, landline, and TV will be on this bill.

    I also have a separate landline with Talk Talk. Like BT, it is much clearer on the address page that it is a landline bill.

    The problem seems to be that casinos are now trying to dictate which utility companies their players must use in order for their bills to be legit. This is fine in countries where state monopolies provide such services, but the UK and much of the EU has opened the market so that there can be hundreds of small utility companies involved. Although the UK has the "big 6" for energy, there are dozens of reseller companies that buy in bulk and sell on to consumers, so that their bill will reflect some niche reseller, rather than one of the "big 6" suppliers.

    Since utility companies are not state controlled, there is no official bill format, and bill design changes all the time. Virgin Media recently launched a "new look" bill, and it is also possible that casino security have not yet updated their samples used when checking bills sent in by players.

    As for colour, only the "Virgin Media" logo is printed in a red colour, the rest of the bill is in black and white format, using greyscale shading in parts.


    Given that your bank simply printed off your statement on a branch printer, and a badly set up one, a fiver is too much. Especially so given that it was branded a "fake" due to the poor quality.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jan 12, 2012
  39. jjezebel37

    jjezebel37 Meister Member mm1

    Occupation:
    sales/marketing
    Location:
    Belfast (Northern Ireland)
    I got paid without having to send additional docs in.

    Thank you very much Wim, your help was really appreciated.

    I am not letting go of the fact though, that the security team need to know the difference between a Virgin Landline and a Virgin Mobile bill but hopefully this is something that will be looked at and reviewed for the Virgin customer.



    Cheers Wim
     

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