I need Bryan to read this, re: Club World. I can't PM

[jetset]

I'm still not entirely happy with the way CWC handled this problem gambler and his exclusion (not that that matters to the operator, I'm sure ,) but on the other hand it does appear that TTN has been less than forthright in this matter, stirring up a hornet's nest without actually disclosing full details of his interaction with CWC.

I'm no expert on responsible gambling (read a lot, attended a couple workshops) but did nothing in this guy's behaviour and repeated complaints about losing ring any warning bells with anyone at the casino?

 

[mattsgame]

I'm still not entirely happy with the way CWC handled this problem gambler and his exclusion (not that that matters to the operator, I'm sure ,) but on the other hand it does appear that TTN has been less than forthright in this matter, stirring up a hornet's nest without actually disclosing full details of his interaction with CWC.

I'm no expert on responsible gambling (read a lot, attended a couple workshops) but did nothing in this guy's behaviour and repeated complaints about losing ring any warning bells with anyone at the casino?

While I agree somewhat, asking for a break or account closure no matter what your motive, should be done no questions asked.

This is a very very hard thing for online casinos to deal with I would imagine.

They may very well ask Steve "Going by your behavior, we sincerely think you may have a gambling problem".. Steve's answer would be "nah, she is all apples". (of course until he admitted it, as he has)

Then if casinos closed peoples accounts on the whim they may have a problem, then no doubt people would be posting complaints about it everywhere and there would be an uproar on that side of the coin as well and innocent people would be caught in the crossfire..

Not to mention, some casino would use it as an excuse not to pay winnings and return deposits only.

 

[Casinomeister]

While I agree somewhat, asking for a break or account closure no matter what your motive, should be done no questions asked.

This is a very very hard thing for online casinos to deal with I would imagine...

It is. That's one reason why casinos will ask players why they want to quit. Bad customer service? The games suck? Can't win? Or is it because his/her gambling is out of control? Casinos need to know the reason why players quit so they can take the appropriate course of action.

As soon as the player told the casino exactly why he wanted to quit, they closed his account without further ado.

 

[jetset]

While I agree somewhat, asking for a break or account closure no matter what your motive, should be done no questions asked.

This is a very very hard thing for online casinos to deal with I would imagine.

They may very well ask Steve "Going by your behavior, we sincerely think you may have a gambling problem".. Steve's answer would be "nah, she is all apples". (of course until he admitted it, as he has)

Then if casinos closed peoples accounts on the whim they may have a problem, then no doubt people would be posting complaints about it everywhere and there would be an uproar on that side of the coin as well and innocent people would be caught in the crossfire..

Not to mention, some casino would use it as an excuse not to pay winnings and return deposits only.

How to identify potential problem play and then diplomatically broach the possibility with the player and open a dialogue with him or her is the subject of an entire session in most responsible gambling workshops...so, yes that is an important facet of this often complex subject, and closing an account 'on a whim' is definitely not an option.

The intention should always be the welfare of the player, which is why I asked the question above regarding his pattern of behaviour.

There are several outfits in the industry offering quality responsible gambling training courses - you have to wonder how many operators avail themselves of the opportunity to properly train both managers and staff.

 

[ksech]

I stll stand firm that CWC should have closed his account immediately (now knowing they had been going back and forth with emails prior to this) when he told them he needed a break and wanted his accounts closed, they never should have offered him the free chip. In my opinion, it makes the casino look as if it doesn't really care if the player has a gambling problem as long as they keep playing. Keep the player "hooked" no matter what. Throw them a free chip, hope they get lucky and they win and they can cashout, they'll keep playing. Keep the money rolling in. What's the matter with this scenerio?

 

[skiny]

Personally I think when a player asks to have an account closed it should be closed. That's all.

Does a person really have to tell a casino that they have a problem to get the casino to close an account? Maybe some people aren't hardened addicts and just feel they're in a little over their heads. Not everyone wants to step up and admit to having an addiction to everyone they talk to. A simple request that an account be closed should be enough.

I realize it's tough to lose customers, especially ones who lose a lot of money at your casino but part of offering good service is accepting when a player has decided he's had enough. I really don't think a second or third request or even a good explanation should be necessary. "I don't want to do this anymore" is all it should take.

Now once the account is closed if the casino wants to ask if the service was inadequate or if it was a losing streak that caused the player to decide to quit, a simple "sorry to see you go" email would do no harm but it's important that the email ask why the account was closed rather than entice the player back to the casino. If the response is "I've lost too much money, I'm going to play elsewhere" then a free chip will do no harm. If the problem is service, that's an issue the casino will have to work out but if you're respectful to the player even when he wants to leave and the player is not an addict you'll probably see him back again.

My point is not every compulsive gambler who requests an account closure is going to admit they're gambling addicts. Some might not even be fully conscious of it but feel they should probably stop.

Close the account then open a discussion and find out if it should really be reopened.

 

[Nifty29]

I agree that maybe the casino could have "read between the lines" earlier, however TTM has been (IMO) deliberately misrepresenting the situation the whole time....especially considering we now know that the free chips (plural) were NOT given in response to the email posted originally, which puts a different spin on things.

Judging by the information Bryan presented, CWC did not "bait" the OP at all, but provided the free chips in response to TTM complaining about losses.

 

[chuchu59]

Judging the change in course of this thread thru Bryan's revelation of the emails I will stick my neck out and presume TTM has not been truthful if he does not respond at all within the next 24 hours.

 

[ksech]

I am going to go out on a limb here...

For those who know a person who has suffered through any type of serious addiction...If this was a person who was close to you, a personal friend or relative, you would know that he is exhibiting "classic" denial symptoms of an addict. I am in NO way condoning what he has done, but am also not ready to give up on a person who has been here for years and contributed. Everyone was ready to help him when they thought the casino had done wrong by him, but now everyone is ready to hang him out to dry? WTF???

I'm sorry, but he needs help AND support. With a snap of the fingers everyone now is ready to crucify him. Why not put forth the effort to try to find ways to help him. If he needs someone to talk to, someone to go to who can answer questions, or whatever. Don't be so quick to slam the door in his face, at least give him the common courtesy and some dignity to be proud of himself for taking this first step in admitting he has a problem.

 

[bb28]

I agree that maybe the casino could have "read between the lines" earlier, however TTM has been (IMO) deliberately misrepresenting the situation the whole time....especially considering we now know that the free chips (plural) were NOT given in response to the email posted originally, which puts a different spin on things.

Judging by the information Bryan presented, CWC did not "bait" the OP at all, but provided the free chips in response to TTM complaining about losses.

Judging the change in course of this thread thru Bryan's revelation of the emails I will stick my neck out and presume TTM has not been truthful if he does not respond at all within the next 24 hours.

As ugly as it is.....addicts lie and deceive because they are sick. It doesn't mean he is not responsible for it nor should it be overlooked but it needs to be understood that it is part of the illness. I find some people being a little hard-assed about it because they don't fully comprehend that the problem is that control is lost.

As Ksech posted below, TTM still needs support and it speaks well of the people who can look past it and offer up support with sympathy.

I am going to go out on a limb here...

For those who know a person who has suffered through any type of serious addiction...If this was a person who was close to you, a personal friend or relative, you would know that he is exhibiting "classic" denial symptoms of an addict. I am in NO way condoning what he has done, but am also not ready to give up on a person who has been here for years and contributed. Everyone was ready to help him when they thought the casino had done wrong by him, but now everyone is ready to hang him out to dry? WTF???

I'm sorry, but he needs help AND support. With a snap of the fingers everyone now is ready to crucify him. Why not put forth the effort to try to find ways to help him. If he needs someone to talk to, someone to go to who can answer questions, or whatever. Don't be so quick to slam the door in his face, at least give him the common courtesy and some dignity to be proud of himself for taking this first step in admitting he has a problem.

 

[chuchu59]

I am going to go out on a limb here...

For those who know a person who has suffered through any type of serious addiction...If this was a person who was close to you, a personal friend or relative, you would know that he is exhibiting "classic" denial symptoms of an addict. I am in NO way condoning what he has done, but am also not ready to give up on a person who has been here for years and contributed. Everyone was ready to help him when they thought the casino had done wrong by him, but now everyone is ready to hang him out to dry? WTF???

I'm sorry, but he needs help AND support. With a snap of the fingers everyone now is ready to crucify him. Why not put forth the effort to try to find ways to help him. If he needs someone to talk to, someone to go to who can answer questions, or whatever. Don't be so quick to slam the door in his face, at least give him the common courtesy and some dignity to be proud of himself for taking this first step in admitting he has a problem.

Kim

We are still here to help him but if this was a deliberate act to extort free chips from CW I cannot sympathise with him especially if he tried to fool the whole community into believing he actually had a gambling addition and wants to quit. Frankly, I am wavering on this.

It all boils down to one word 'Integrity'. If this is in doubt, it will undo all the years of good work one has. Even if Bryan or Max were found to be untruthful, no matter how much they have done over the years, the tide will turn against them. I know that will be hard to swallow and I am being a bit insensitive but that's the way the world goes

 

[ksech]

See, I guess my perception of what Bryan stated in his post differs from what you perceived. But even if this has been a last ditch effort to "extort" a free chip from the casino, this is still a manipulation to get a "fix" for an addict. I'm NOT making excuses for him, just trying to make clear, this is what addicts do. On the other hand, if he was sincerely trying to "extort" money from the casino, why would he insist on the casino closing his accounts?

I'm making myself crazy, sorry. He knows he has a problem, he's done the right thing by closing his accounts. IF he returns to this thread, at least have the common decency to be civil to him. Hear him out. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be next week, but when/if he does return, let him have his day "in court"...

 

[chuchu59]

As ugly as it is.....addicts lie and deceive because they are sick. It doesn't mean he is not responsible for it nor should it be overlooked but it needs to be understood that it is part of the illness. I find some people being a little hard-assed about it because they don't fully comprehend that the problem is that control is lost.

As Ksech posted below, TTM still needs support and it speaks well of the people who can look past it and offer up support with sympathy.

I understand what you are saying luscious lips but while having sympathy for TTM we should also spare a thought for CW. If, all along, a player was moaning about losses and suddenly wanted to close an account the natural thing to do was either to comply or to dangle a freebie in front of him so as not to lose a medium -roller to a competitor.

Meanwhile , with the risk that I may be branded as having a heart of stone, please do not take everything at face value. Of course it is possible that TTM may have a gambling problem. Who doesnt here btw?. It is also possible that he is not really different from the rest of us.


I am a hardened man but in my real life I have seen people who feign mental illness to get off the hook.
Imagine a subordinate suddenly telling you she was out to see a doc and then sending you an email telling you she would be taking 4 weeks of sick leave and that was the period preceding a mammoth project she particularly detested. I wont go into details but I am 100% sure she feigned mental illness as this is hard to detect and she was not allowed to take leave due to the work in hand.

So yes, I am sceptical though in no way am I speaking for CW which has not done enough to protect themselves from accusations of being insincere in tacking gambling addiction.

One needs to ask oneself. What would you have done if you were in CW's shoes? There may well be many people who knows it is easy to touch on people's heartstrings and gain sympathy. I believe we require hard evidence from either party to come to a conclusion.

 

[Nifty29]

I don't see any crucifixion going on.

He is an addict. It's not helpful to an addict to say "oh that's ok you can behave how you like because you're an addict." It's wrong. It's just perpetuating the illness. The lies and deceit have to stop before he has any chance at recovery. I KNOW this for a fact.

We don't spare anyone else the rod when they lie and mislead in the forums.

The guy needs empathy, not sympathy. He needs to forget about all this stuff and delete his account and stay completely away from anything gambling related, or I guarantee he will go back to it. Nothing is more certain. One can still be empathetic whilst pointing out the addicts unacceptable behavior.

Anyway, I'm going to wait and see what occurs the next few days. We aren't all going to agree on the best way to help him, but help him is what I'm trying to do....the way I know best from experience.

 

[chuchu59]

I don't see any crucifixion going on.

He is an addict. It's not helpful to an addict to say "oh that's ok you can behave how you like because you're an addict." It's wrong. It's just perpetuating the illness. The lies and deceit have to stop before he has any chance at recovery. I KNOW this for a fact.

We don't spare anyone else the rod when they lie and mislead in the forums.

The guy needs empathy, not sympathy. He needs to forget about all this stuff and delete his account and stay completely away from anything gambling related, or I guarantee he will go back to it. Nothing is more certain. One can still be empathetic whilst pointing out the addicts unacceptable behavior.

Anyway, I'm going to wait and see what occurs the next few days. We aren't all going to agree on the best way to help him, but help him is what I'm trying to do....the way I know best from experience.

Nifty,

While I agree with what you have said I believe many posters are also concerned that if we are too harsh on TTM it may push him over the edge given that he has a gambling addiction problem. It is necessary for Bryan and co. to ensure this forum is not used for pursuing personal vendettas or gains but then it is equally important to dish out help to anyone in need. Personally, I have been there myself and in a big way too.

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty,

While I agree with what you have said I believe many posters are also concerned that if we are too harsh on TTM it may push him over the edge given that he has a gambling addiction problem. It is necessary for Bryan and co. to ensure this forum is not used for pursuing personal vendettas or gains but then it is equally important to dish out help to anyone in need. Personally, I have been there myself and in a big way too.

Good points Chu. Well said.

 

[takethemoney]

Where in the heck did I ever mislead or deceive anyone here? I might have things a bit mixed up, chronologically, but I have never, ever outright lied to anyone here. I'm fighting both a gambling problem and an alcohol problem. Ask me a question and I will do my best to answer it as honest as I can. This thing is getting way too twisted up. I really hope all of you can just relax and have some peace. I'm not worth you all getting into arguments! That was never the intent of me starting this thread.

I had an issue with casino and I needed to stop gambling. Both means have been met.

The only unresolved issue that is still crowing out there is this company's absolute refusal to produce my player's logs. I believe there is a reason for it.

 

[Nifty29]

Where in the heck did I ever mislead or deceive anyone here? I might have things a bit mixed up, chronologically, but I have never, ever outright lied to anyone here. I'm fighting both a gambling problem and an alcohol problem. Ask me a question and I will do my best to answer it as honest as I can. This thing is getting way too twisted up. I really hope all of you can just relax and have some peace. I'm not worth you all getting into arguments! That was never the intent of me starting this thread.

I had an issue with casino and I needed to stop gambling. Both means have been met.

The only unresolved issue that is still crowing out there is this company's absolute refusal to produce my player's logs. I believe there is a reason for it.

You're still going on about the casino "ripping you off" etc etc....you're not as far along the path as you think.

Forget logs or anything else and stay away from anything related to gambling. You have no hope if you don't. Oh, and being a gambling addict doesn't prevent you getting things right when explaining an issue....you have an agenda and you need to let it go for your own sake.

Let Bryan deal with anything that might be wrong at CWC.

 

[maphesto]

The only unresolved issue that is still crowing out there is this company's absolute refusal to produce my player's logs.

I really hope that you will receive the player logs. I don´t think your gambling addiction is getting any worse if you check those figures.

 

[takethemoney]

You're still going on about the casino "ripping you off" etc etc....you're not as far along the path as you think.

Forget logs or anything else and stay away from anything related to gambling. You have no hope if you don't. Oh, and being a gambling addict doesn't prevent you getting things right when explaining an issue....you have an agenda and you need to let it go for your own sake.

Let Bryan deal with anything that might be wrong at CWC.

Thanks man! The real good that has come from this is the great feedback that has helped me understand how ditched I have become. You are absolutely right. Why should any of these things matter to me in my recovery? They don't. Good news is I have not touched gambling since I made my announcement that I have a gambling addiction. Whether you know it or not, I do appreciate your feedback. Sometimes it's hard to take, but I get it.

 

[Seventh777]

Thanks man! The real good that has come from this is the great feedback that has helped me understand how ditched I have become. You are absolutely right. Why should any of these things matter to me in my recovery? They don't. Good news is I have not touched gambling since I made my announcement that I have a gambling addiction. Whether you know it or not, I do appreciate your feedback. Sometimes it's hard to take, but I get it.

Good luck with this, I remember a few years ago when I gave up drinking (worse 20 minutes of my life ), but seriously, once you have got through the initial stage the rest becomes a lot easier .

As far as Nifty goes I am very similar to him and his right on the nose stance, several times in life I have had close friends coming to me for a shoulder to cry on when they have split up with their partners, but, they aint getting no sympathy from me if the reasons they split up are being caught in bed with other girls, goats, etc, and completely ruined a good relationship entirely down to their own fault, the softly, softly approach may be warm and fluffy, but, it does very little, to help curing problems .

Anyway`s keep up the good work .

 

[chuchu59]

Thanks man! The real good that has come from this is the great feedback that has helped me understand how ditched I have become. You are absolutely right. Why should any of these things matter to me in my recovery? They don't. Good news is I have not touched gambling since I made my announcement that I have a gambling addiction. Whether you know it or not, I do appreciate your feedback. Sometimes it's hard to take, but I get it.

Nifty has provided sound advice in asking you to forget about the logs. If my hunch is correct, the rtp is definitely going to be worse than average. So what goes on from here? Deposit more to raise the rtp to a more acceptable level? or hope they give you something to cover your pain? None of these will assist you in your recovery. They dont and musnt matter anymore. Good luck mate in overcoming your addiction that is.

 

[ksech]

I'm glad you came back You do have friends here who care about you. It's tough love and it's going to be a tough road for a while, bit I believe you have the inner strength to get you through this. You've already taken the most difficult step and that was the first step, admittance that you have a problem.

I'm not going to tell you it's going to be a piece of cake here on out, because that would be a lie. I won't tell you what you want to hear just because I think that's what you need to hear. But if you ever need an "ear" I'm a good listener, my PM box is always open, no judgements will be made, no replies if you don't want any, just a place you can go to vent if need be.

The online gambling may be easier to quit than the drinking. You can self-exclude from the online gambling. Take the money you would have deposited into an online casino each night/day and start a savings account. At the end of the month use that money to buy something nice for yourself or your significant other. Use it as a REWARD for NOT falling for the temptation of gambling. Forget about those gaming logs, that was in the past, LIVE for the future. Today is the first new day of the new rest of your life.

The drinking may require a new perspective of way of life and people/buddies you "hang" with.
Some will support you in you're venture to quit drinking and others will ridicule you. The ones who ridicule you, remember, are only your DRINKING friends and will only be your friend as long as you DRINK with them.

 

[chuchu59]

It`s springtime and thanking people is the onset of VWM`s complex mating ritual .

Yeah maybe crossing a cat with a duck?

 

[takethemoney]

Yeah maybe crossing a cat with a duck?

Would we call it a Cuck or a Dat?