I asked an CM accredited MG & RTG casino the following questions.....

[julester]

All,

I thought you might be interested in the following answers to questions I put to an accredited RTG & MG casino. I am a longstanding customer in both cases. Response from MG was virtually by return. RTG took a little longer.

Yes, I know the questions could have been asked differently / in more depth etc. so don't complain - I just thought it may be of interest!

It did occur to me that if there was sufficient interest, a list of relevant questions could be put forward to some casinos on behalf of CM patrons. It would help answer numerous unknowns. A list could be compiled and then a vote taken on the top 20 questions everyone wants answered and the results posted here. Just a thought!

You can either take the answers for what they are or look into the words a bit more. Let the debate commence...

In both cases, I have no gripes with the casinos involved (apart from not winning enough!!!!) but in the interests of confidentiality, will not mention names.




RTG

Q Can individual RTG casinos such as yourself change the % payable on any of the games or are they all set by RTG?

A When games are released by RTG they are set to the default payouts, the operators do have the option to change the payouts but only within narrow predetermined levels. We have never once since our launch with RTG changed the payout percentages.


Q If not, do RTG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A RTG have never changed the payout percentages after a game release.


Q In the light of US players not being able to gamble on-line, this will no doubt create an enormous dent in many casinos profits...and ultimately RTG. Therefore, have RTG already, or are they likely to in the future, reduced the % payable to compensate for this enormous loss of revenue stream? I think there are many players like myself who seem to be going through an unusual 'dry' spell. Many are becoming more and more suspicious and switching to the traditional B&M.

A Most large operators who are most at risk from the decline of the US market will have shut off all US activity well over a year ago. I cant speak for any other operators, however we have expanded into other target markets and have been relatively unaffected in the long run. Although the US was lucrative, there are many other emerging markets that Casinos and Software companies are expanding into I am sure you have noticed the increase in Gambling related advertising here in the UK.

We have many winners and just in the last 6 months we have had almost half a million in progressive wins, and just yesterday we had several players win more than $10k. Overall the payouts on our games are well within the expected returns, in fact they are paying out more than 96.5%.


Microgaming

Q Can individual MG casinos such as yourself change the % payable on any of the games or are they all set by MG?

A The system can in no way be altered to suite the casino. Any casino with the ability to change payout ratio's on games would not be one that I would play at. The casino would also not be legitimately licensed. Remember that our payouts can be viewed xxxxx


Q If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A Not possible. The software would be unfair and MicroGaming would basically have full control over the casino's. The games run on different algorithms which is why you have good and bad luck streaks. None of this is predetermined by MicroGaming or the casino.


Q In the light of US players not being able to gamble on-line, this will no doubt create an enormous dent in many casinos profits...and ultimately MG. Therefore, have MG already, or are they likely to in the future, reduced the % payable to compensate for this enormous loss of revenue stream? I think there are many players like myself who seem to be going through an unusual 'dry' spell. Many are becoming more and more suspicious and switching to the traditional B&M.

A Losing the US affected the industry profits yes however xxxxx has always been well established enough to overcome this. Once again neither MicroGaming or xxxxx has control over the games. See some of our lucky winners on the website xxxxx

julester

 

[KasinoKing]

Great post Julester

My feedback:

RTG
Q: If not, do RTG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A: RTG have never changed the payout percentages after a game release.

How would the casino ever know if RTG changed the %'s?
No one is going to convince me that the casinos employ someone to constantly check that the games are never changed.
I don't know how casino licensing works, but I would think it quite likely that the software provider gets a small % of each casino's profit. If this was the case, there would certainly be a motive for RTG 'tweaking' the games.

Microgaming
Q: If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A: Not possible.

Not true! Of course it's possible for MG to change their own games if they want to!
In addition, the same applies as to RTG above, MG might have a motive & how would the casino know?

KK

 

[Jufo]

Q If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A Not possible. The software would be unfair and MicroGaming would basically have full control over the casino's. The games run on different algorithms which is why you have good and bad luck streaks. None of this is predetermined by MicroGaming or the casino.

So are they in fact saying that there are some algorithms which are used to cause streaks? Truly random results cannot have any "streakiness" outside of normal variance. If there are any algorithms other than the ones to draw random numbers then the results are in fact manipulated. Julester, could you get an assurance from MG that every outcome is truly random and completely independent of player's previous luck or the bet size used.

 

[julester]

I suspect....

...that the answers have actually been given in good faith and therefore, it is probably not worth (of course I could be totally wrong) analysing specific words which have been used by the relevant managers. I suspect that an 'official' response from the relevant software providers and casino owners would be more 'accurate' in their phrasing.

If this thread gathers interest, I think that an FAQ (frequently asked questions for those that don't know!!!) from each of the software providers would be really interesting. I would be happy to undertake this work. Just PM your questions and at some point I will list them on a poll. The top 10 / 15 questions (I suspect most people want to know the same things) can then be 'officially' submitted to both providers and an accredited casino and we will have definitive information. If they choose not to answer, fine - whatever data we get can be published on here...including non answered questions.

It could be worth the hassle.

julester

 

[Simmo!]

Two things to add: firstly in the first part, the operator wasn't clear IMO. Where they say "the operators do have the option to change the payouts but only within narrow predetermined levels", I believe that this has to be a justified written request to RTG and takes time to implement (i'm told up to 6 months).

Secondly, regards the "not possible" comment, I can allude to the recent discussion on how slots returns are determined by pre-setting symbols per reel etc. Of course it must be possible to re-vamp reel layouts, but it would affect ALL MG casinos, not just one, so highly unlikely IMO.

 

[Rusty]

So are they in fact saying that there are some algorithms which are used to cause streaks? Truly random results cannot have any "streakiness" outside of normal variance. If there are any algorithms other than the ones to draw random numbers then the results are in fact manipulated. Julester, could you get an assurance from MG that every outcome is truly random and completely independent of player's previous luck or the bet size used.

I have been saying exactly the same thing about algorithms being used in all the software for a long time.
The way I think it works is that algorithms control and determine the dynamic weighting until a set goal is reached it then changes to a new algorithm.
The results within these streaks will still be random to a certain degree but the probabilities will have changed.
The effects of this could be seen by bonus, scatter,Wild,jackpot symbols appearing more/less frequently in spells of play.
Have you noticed anything like that?
Of course you have the evidence is infront of your nose.
There may also be times when the slot may be allowed to play without constraining algorithms as long as the RTP is within predefined parameters but that is just speculation.
That is certainly how I would go about it anyway if I wanted to create slots that have set RTP and can be described as random and yet allow for exciting swings returns and that is exactly how online slots behave.
Who knows it may not even be sinister but who would believe that unless they were honest about it in the first place.
I would be amazed if the official MG line states that anything other than a RNG generates the results.
I have a mountain of anomalous data and hundreds probably Thousands of hours of observation that say otherwise.

 

[Rusty]

Secondly, regards the "not possible" comment, I can allude to the recent discussion on how slots returns are determined by pre-setting symbols per reel etc. Of course it must be possible to re-vamp reel layouts, but it would affect ALL MG casinos, not just one, so highly unlikely IMO.

That is true but it would not be difficult to have the option.
It is now possible to swap One symbol with another on the fly as it were and this option could be built into the software.
You could be spinning those rams for example and then come the next spin the reel layout may be slightly different and you would not know.
This happens in free spin rounds I think but I am not sure if it is the case in normal spins.
Anomalous results suggest either it is or dynamic weighting is used ibut t amounts to the same thing .
Much easier to use dynamic weighting though in normal spins.

 

[zebedy]

just a thought, even if they did the things you asked in your questions, would they even admit it,i think if they did they would be looking for another job the following day, just think how many customers they would lose, not to mention of putting all casinos integrity on the line,

 

[vinylweatherman]

just a thought, even if they did the things you asked in your questions, would they even admit it,i think if they did they would be looking for another job the following day, just think how many customers they would lose, not to mention of putting all casinos integrity on the line,

Think how many MORE they would lose if they lied, and then got found out later on.

MG must by now be aware that members of this forum have "cracked" many of their slots to reveal reel layouts and a pretty accurate RTP estimate. If they changed reel layouts, they would get found out. They have already been caught using weighting not just on the 3 reel "classic" slots, (where it would be expected), but on the older 5 reel VIDEO slots, where it most certainly was NOT expected.

The question of algorithms is a tricky one, as there are natural swings of luck in a purely random system, but if there is an algorithm designed to enhance streakiness while keeping to the correct RTP, it will be of benefit to the casino because it would manipulate the gambling patterns and urges of players, yet would not be found out by traditional monthly RTP returns for whole game classes.

Eventually, someone WILL come up with a way to collect and analyse enough data to answer this question to a standard of accuracy that will give the answer confidence in statistical terms (this means a sample size big enough that any result is unlikely to be down to chance).
For slots, the sample would need to be large, and it would not be the overall RTP, but the behaviour of the variances that would need to be analysed.

 

[julester]

I think....

....that the issue boils down to what is being asked. The casinos provide a product, nothing more, nothing less. I think it is fair to assume (conspiracy theories aside) that at a B&M casino, a roulette reel is a roulette wheel, the odds are the odds. The same goes with poker etc. etc. If the overall payouts of a slot are quoted at 97%, they either are or they aren't. I could go on. You have to start from the basis that CM accreditation means something and that they aren't going to start lying to customers wanting information about the product they are going to buy.

I think the point is that there would be no harm in doing it! 20 questions that they can choose to answer or not, lie or not, totally up to them....what we individually choose to do with the answers...or lack of...is up to us as well.

The offer is there. Either fire over questions to me or post in this link and I will prepare an e-mail....

j

 

[zebedy]

i hope you dont mind but i put your questions to ecogra, this was there reply,
the answers seem consistant with those that came from the casino,

Q/ Can individual MG casinos such change the % payable on any of the games or are they all set by MG?

The casino operators can definitely not change the payout percentages on any of their games. In addition to this, we also monitor the monthly payout ratios for all the games using data from MGS, which enables us to ensure that MGS is also not changing any of the percentages.

Q/ If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?
MGS does not change the payout percentage on any of their existing games. If they do want to change the percentage, then a new game is developed and launched as such (e.g. a new slots game or a table game that will operate according to different rules, and the rules must be published with the game).

Q/ In the light of US players not being able to gamble on-line, this will no doubt create an enormous dent in many casinos profits...and ultimately MG. Therefore, have MG already, or are they likely to in the future, reduced the % payable to compensate for this enormous loss of revenue stream? I think there are many players like myself who seem to be going through an unusual 'dry' spell. Many are becoming more and more suspicious and switching to the traditional B&M.

The US situation has impacted on the profitability of many of the online gaming companies, but this has really just forced them to focus on new markets such as Europe and Asia which are also proving to be very lucrative for the good operators. Since we monitor the MGS payout percentages using the actual game play data (in fact, every single transaction that occurs each month) I can assure you that these percentages have remained constant pre and post the US changes.

 

[julester]

Again...

...I think what will be interesting is how the software providers / casinos actually respond.

Take this for example, why is it sometimes you don't see a particular symbol (i.e. a feature symbol) on any given reel whilst it's spinning? It would be interesting to see what they say. We probably know the answers already but how will they deal with the questions??

Anyway, will leave it with you all.

J

 

[slotplayer]

So are they in fact saying that there are some algorithms which are used to cause streaks?

We'll maybe after they learn a players deposit habits they serve the frequent depositor the games with the low return algorithms.

Play the same game enough times and you get to know its behaivor. Conversely you know when that behaivor has changed.

 

[slotplayer]

...I think what will be interesting is how the software providers / casinos actually respond.

Take this for example, why is it sometimes you don't see a particular symbol (i.e. a feature symbol) on any given reel whilst it's spinning? It would be interesting to see what they say. We probably know the answers already but how will they deal with the questions??

Anyway, will leave it with you all.

J

you're not referring to the 5th passport on tomb Raider - secret of the sword by any chance are you?

 

[casinopotato]

doubling up

I would like to know if there's any chance that the double/gamble feature has a house edge - anyone think this is possible?

 

[Alexishot69]

deffo

I would like to know if there's any chance that the double/gamble feature has a house edge - anyone think this is possible?

has a house egde unless i was spectacularly unlicky to hit an A or K 16x in succession at betfred.i cant or wont believe for one second that thats random...lol