I am more than 90% certain that all poker rooms are rigged

Status
Not open for further replies.
Garywatson has some great play advice and he is 100% true about this:

pokeraddict might never be the best at any given table. Maybe he just avoids the strong players and makes his profit from the fish. That in itself is a skill, one of which you do not seem to have grasped

I keep detailed notes on players and know who is there to have fun and who is there to make money.
 
How full is Bigtits? I dont know. Actually, as there are 11 pages, I dont have the time to go over everything but for me, if a PR wants to cheat, they will (assuming software also rigged) deal strong hands to at least 2-3 of the players and let them sort themselves out while earning good rake in the process. The eventual winners are then rotated so that each player wins a number of hands but lose in the bargain as it cannot cover the rake they have dished out.
 
iv'e seen....

How many 4 of a kinds have you seen online compared to in real life??? I have seen way more online then in person. And maybe it is because you play more hands online but it seems to be a little bit more exciting online then in real life...:eek2:
 
Didn't see this topic until now...
Never thought that 10% was that much :D
 
How many 4 of a kinds have you seen online compared to in real life??? I have seen way more online then in person. And maybe it is because you play more hands online but it seems to be a little bit more exciting online then in real life...:eek2:

Ive seen 4 of a kind a number of times in real casinos. In fact, I was on the receiving end of a four of a kind in a home game a couple of weeks ago.
 
Just found this:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


How big is Fulltilt? I guess the bigger a pokerrom, the more above suspicion huh?

Make this your next study. I too have been stung with a disconnect. The response I received from the support team was inaccurate. I dropped over 1k holding the nuts. It wasnt at FT. It was an iscolated incident but I did quit the site for that reason
 
One more "pro" who in reality makes his money not from online raked poker, but because he is an afiiliate, and who is anxious to convince us that pokerooms are not rigged:
Outdated URL (Invalid)
 
One more "pro" who in reality makes his money not from online raked poker, but because he is an afiiliate, and who is anxious to convince us that pokerooms are not rigged:
Outdated URL (Invalid)

omg. you think this guy is for real???? :lolup: That blog entry is some funny shit.


Look at the tags:

November 30, 2004 @ 9:55 pm Filed under Poker, Poker Humor, Online Poker, Is Online Poker Rigged?
 
One more "pro" who in reality makes his money not from online raked poker, but because he is an afiiliate, and who is anxious to convince us that pokerooms are not rigged:
Outdated URL (Invalid)

Casinomeister said:
FYI, most of the people who are disagreeing with you are players, not affiliates. Give that one a break, okay? That argument is pretty much null and void.

So if you post in another thread you can ignore CM's request?
 
You want statistical proof? You can get it yourselves if you do not care to lose money and time. Just open an account in any pokeroom and start playing. You will see that:

1.) When playing limit tables, you will rarely get strong preflop hands and when you get them, you will rarely flop or turn or river a pair. By rarely I mean less often than the probability says this should happen. This way the post blinds will wipe you out. (Because the amount wagered in the pot when you hold hands which have an edge greater than the 5% rake, will be insufficient to generate greater profits than the amount lost because of the post blinds. For the same reason, it might even be impossible to have an overall edge in limit poker with a 5% rake, even if there was no cheating, I do not know, although I think you should still have an edge when playing against the players of e.g. Sportingbet who almost never fold at limit tables. But certainly, if there was no rake, a conservative player would have a great edge over the other players even in limit poker and the post blinds would be no problem)

2.) When you get a strong hand, you will be beaten by a stronger one, more often that the probability says this should happen.

Therefore I recommend to play only no-limit, so you will force them to increase the rate of cheating of the No2 way of cheating, in order to make you lose. Because if playing limit, they can allocate the cheating equally in both ways, and make it much more difficult to proove it statistically.

You do not have to do very complicated analysis. This is how I got certain they cheat: Some preflop, flop etc hands (even when played by a stupid player) have an expected value, an edge, greater than the 5% rake (See the edge expected value of the preflop hands at Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) . I am not certain if these values refer to the before or to the after the 5% rake is subtracted, but even if they refer to the before, many hands have much greater than a 5% expected value) So these hands should make you a profit in the long run. Therefore if they make you great losses instead of great profits after a few hundend hands, this is the statistical evidence you ask for. Because when one has an even small edge, it is almost that he will double his bankroll instead of losing it. So if BECAUSE OF THESE HANDS you end up losing your bankroll instead of doubling it, you have your statistical evidence. Almost certain? Lets see how certain it is, regarding the small 2.7% edge roulette has against the player: Suppose a player has a 10,000$ bankroll and goes to the casino, and he is desperate to double his bankroll, and make it 20,000$. If he bets the whole 10,000$ at once, in one bet, on red or black, then he has a 18/37=48.65% probability of achieving his goal of doubling his bankroll to 20,000$. BUT IF HE TRIES TO MAKE HIS 10,000$ BANKROLL INTO 20,000$ SLOWLY, BY BETTING E.G. 50$ PER BET, THEN THE PROBABILITY OF REACHING THE 20,000$ IS NOT EVEN 1%. Yes, the standard deviation of poker is great, but still a few hundred hands are enough if your losses are great and since the edges - expected values of these hands are great (even when a 5% is subtracted).

In most sites (e.g. Sportingbet and 888.com), the players keep betting with crappy preflop and flop cards. Therefore a player who plays no limit (so that the post blinds do not cost him much as I explained above), and folds with the 75%-90% of the worst preflop hands (the greater the number of players the less the number of the preflop hands which have an edge) and folds at flop unless he has at least top pair, he definitely has an edge even after the 5% is subtracted. To fold unless you have a top pair at flop is an advice of Nick the Greek, who went from rags to riches by playing poker. And he was playing with no rake on the pot. So if you must fold when there is no rake, you must definatelly fold when there is 5% rake, so that you have an edge. But I have also tried not folding when I flopped second best pair, and the results were much worse. So Nicks advice was correct. Besides, when you choose a no limit table (where the post blinds are the 1/100 of the average pot, the only thing you have to do to have a net (after the 5% rake is subtracted) edge over the rest of the players, is to play with fewer hands than them, so that in more than 52.5% of your confrontations you hold a stronger hand than theirs (This 52.5% value would be valid if there were no post blinds, so the correct one is a bit higher). To make it more clear, if there were no post blinds, then if a player was folding everything except AA, then the 5% rake would not prevent him from having a huge edge over the other players.

Yes, I know, sometimes bloafing has an expected value so you must bloaf sometimes ? No, when the other players generally keep betting with crap cards you can ignore this factor and never bloaf. As long as you do not get scared and fold on their bloafs. You do not have to be a great poker player to do this, so the bloafing factor is ignorable.

And if it was impossible for any player to have an edge with a 5% rake, then the casinos would have no reason to cheat as ALL the money would end up to the rake, and we would not observe these abnormal results. Absolute Poker would have no reason to cheat.

But if you are not convinced that a player can have an edge in raked poker, do some statistical analysis using pokertracker or in hand. You will find that all sites cheat. They cheat that much, that I could do the stats in my memory. LOL, 90% of the time I had a strong hand, they had a stronger one, where it should be 20%. And when I was winning, I was winning pennies, they always had nothing strong. The videos of POTRIPPER at Youtube were nothing compared to what I have experienced. But in my case there was no superwinner. Just incredible bad luck which made sure nobody was a winner.

Of course, one might counterargue that this is bad luck or else called "being on the negative side of variance". But bad luck itself IS the statistical evidence for cheating: The more extreme the bad luck, the lower the probability that this bad luck had to happen, and thus the more probable the hypothesis that it happened because of cheating. And this is the ONLY argument that statististical evidence for cheating is based on.

So some casinos are more clever and keep the rate of cheating under certain limits, i.e. by modifying only 2 out of the 100 results of the RNG. How then will you get some strong statistical evidence? It is next to impossible, and you will need many hunderds or even many thousands of hands. And it will cost you a lot of money and time. It might take you a year of playing. And if they cheat 1 or 0.5 out of 100 hands, forget about it. Its impossible to get statistical evidence. IN THIS CASE THEY DO NOT RISK ANYTHING BY CHEATING, THEY ARE 100% SAFE OF NEVER GETTING EXPOSED. Of course the more they reduce the rate of cheating, the more they have to pay some winners, that is why some sites like Sportingbet cheat with a very exposable rate of cheating.

If you were real poker players and not affiliates and shills, you would not keep saying that my arguments are craap. But instead you would try to analyse them with careful-subtle-deep thought doubting counterarguments. Thats what you would do if you were interested in finding out the truth of whether they cheat or not. A scientist who really wants the truth, takes both sides of opposite theories, and doubts them both by with counterarguments. He never says: This argument is craap and I do not want to know it even before he understands it.But no, every time a player is complaining in the forums of being cheated, a multitude of posts attacks him that he his out of his mind just because he suspected this. AND YOU ALWAYS SAY THAT HE LOST BECAUSE OF HIS BAD POKER PLAY, WHEREAS YOU ARE WINNERS! NOT A WORD THAT HE MIGHT HAVE SIMPLY LOST BECAUSE OF THE RAKE, OR THAT PERHAPS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT THE RAKE! But hey, you avoid this argument. First, because it is not in the interest of the casinos to convince them so. Secondly, if it is impossible to beat a 5% rake, how did you make your profits? So quit trying to convincing ME that you are not affiliates and shills. Well if I was an affiliate or shill, I would try to convince players it is impossible to beat the rake, if I wanted to avoid cheating accusations. But unfortunately for you, the rake IS beatable. I toled you, try Sportingbet. They go all in with K4 preflop! So either the rake is beatable, or these players are working for the casino and they pretend to be fish to attract players. I think the second is more probable, although there are some real fish as well.
 
No Argument Here

On this topic, I agree with both ThodorisK and Keyser to some degree. While I do believe that some card rooms do not fairly deal the cards, I don't think that it has anything to do with helping certain players over others.

As Keyser has stated, the total amount of money bet is the key to how much the house will win, not who wins the pot. Even if a couple of sharks dominate over a bunch of fishes, the cardroom knows that the key is to have enough players around to keep that money in play. A winning shark is probably not going to leave the site, and, as poker can be streaky, they will likely put some of their winnings back into play.

On the other hand, I have played way too much online poker not to have witnessed some very peculiar tendencies. By far the biggest is how often the river will hit and give some fish three sixes to beat my aces up, or something to that variety. There just seems to be way, way, too many good hands, and "lucky" river hits.

All considered, my theory of how cardrooms cheat players is simple: the hands that are dealt are "juiced". In other words, the better hands come up much more often than they should, to encourage more betting, bigger pots, and to keep the fishies hanging around until the end.

This tactic would greatly increase the room's "take", especially on the lower limit tables (where most of the players are); by inducing more betting & less folding, the bigger pots would ultimately mean more rake.

This type of an arrangement would probably be neutral; i.e., it wouldn't favor any particular player(s) in terms of getting good cards, but the number of good hands would increase, and it would also follow that the number of times a hand would improve would also increase.

This would explain why it would seem to some that the poorer players are getting the benefit. Good players might wisely (assuming a legitimate deal) fold 2 pairs to a made flush if the bet is too much (like a $50 bet into a $5 pot); a fish would chase the full house, and if the draw is skewd to favor better outcomes, they will probably hit the river more often than one would think possible.

If anyone out there thinks that this type of thing is BS, and that all poker rooms fairly deal the cards, just look throughout this web site; if casino operators by the hundreds continually try and cheat the average Joe out of his bankroll, what makes you think that a cardroom would never try it? All it would take to make my theory happen is a slight alteration of the deal when the site is put into use - just a simple algorithm to slightly affect the deal - and who would know? Poof, the cardroom could raise their profits by 50% or more, in a way much more difficult to detect (and almost impossible to prove)than most of the ways that casinos cheat us players.

I have the same experince. I have played many sites and there is no way that the cards are random. Having played live poker since the mid-seventies there is no doubt that these sites use a form of trigger software to ensure certain outcomes. If you play and watch enough games online you will notice many patterns emerge. Such as:

1. An all-in player against a player with more chips will win far more times than what is statistically possible in live play - regardless of the all-in cards (hand) in play.

2. Any hand that includes a 10 appears to be at odds with the software - although chip leaders don't seem to have the same problems as short stacks.

3. Obvious setups such as JJ vs 1010 Vs 88 etc are common. This usually happens more towards the end of a tourney. And it is those with less chips that usually have the weaker hand. Contrary to point one, in this instance the player with more chips tends to win.

4. Quads, Full-Books and Sets just appear far to often to be considered random - not to mention Flushs!

5. Buying cards! Watching how players play and seeing the outcomes, I have no doubt that this is another bias which is being exploited. Chip leaders gain a huge advantage by their power betting.

And Finally:

It is in the interest of poker sites to even out the playing field. In this way they ensure more players stay in the game (cash games) thus providing more rake per hour. If the cards online were truly random and without influence then good players would win far too often, meaning less average players would play; and as a consequence less rake.

One Final thought:

Live Poker you are playing the player, based on your hand and opportunity! Online, you are playing against the software - cards (hand) is secondary!
 
I gave Thodo many thanks in this thread. I was trying to clear his slate for the new year.

If I am playing live, I will play about 10% of the hands I will online. That means I will get 10 times as many lucky hands online and 10 times as many sickening beats.

Many people fail to realise that 2-2 is a slight favorite over AK. My standard hand to go out on is QQ or KK preflop.

I dont go with the card rigging thing. It makes no difference to the site. They can only get punished if caught.

If anyone is going to do a cheating argument, they should concentrate on colluding or the AP story. This thread to me just sums up people not happy about getting a bad run, nothing more.

9 out of 10 times in a tournament I get KO'd when I have the better hand. Most of the times, Its preflop. Poker has a big luck element. Most of the good players pick up mini wins through a tournament then catch the odd nutter & work their way up.
 
Punished?

I gave Thodo many thanks in this thread. I was trying to clear his slate for the new year.

If I am playing live, I will play about 10% of the hands I will online. That means I will get 10 times as many lucky hands online and 10 times as many sickening beats.

Many people fail to realise that 2-2 is a slight favorite over AK. My standard hand to go out on is QQ or KK preflop.

I dont go with the card rigging thing. It makes no difference to the site. They can only get punished if caught.

If anyone is going to do a cheating argument, they should concentrate on colluding or the AP story. This thread to me just sums up people not happy about getting a bad run, nothing more.

9 out of 10 times in a tournament I get KO'd when I have the better hand. Most of the times, Its preflop. Poker has a big luck element. Most of the good players pick up mini wins through a tournament then catch the odd nutter & work their way up.

I'm afraid that you are very naive here. Why do you think most sites are either offshore or some doggy place like Costa Rica? Why do you think casinmeister is necessary?

Do you know anything about software and what is required to write it? Do you know how easy it is to write biases within its program? If you think online poker is the same as the real thing you need to grab a case of reality and fast!

Real poker is live - what you see online is a game based on the real thing! Any other thought are unrealistic and without foundation!
 
I'm afraid that you are very naive here. Why do you think most sites are either offshore or some doggy place like Costa Rica? Why do you think casinmeister is necessary?

Do you know anything about software and what is required to write it? Do you know how easy it is to write biases within its program? If you think online poker is the same as the real thing you need to grab a case of reality and fast!

Real poker is live - what you see online is a game based on the real thing! Any other thought are unrealistic and without foundation!

Why would any site chose to alter cards? Maybe it is not totally random but everyone is playing from the same deck of cards. Poker is different from house game, in that they collect regardless of the result. Their fee is the $1 in a $10 game ($10+$1 tournaments). It makes no difference who wins, they collect at the start. In a ring game, they collect rake, that is generally 3-5% of the total pot. They dont care who wins.

If a is rigged, the large stack wouldnt win because the site would want to keep everyone in, to continue draining the players of rake. Why rig cards to bust the short stack?
 
Talk about contradiction

Why would any site chose to alter cards? Maybe it is not totally random but everyone is playing from the same deck of cards. Poker is different from house game, in that they collect regardless of the result. Their fee is the $1 in a $10 game ($10+$1 tournaments). It makes no difference who wins, they collect at the start. In a ring game, they collect rake, that is generally 3-5% of the total pot. They dont care who wins.

If a is rigged, the large stack wouldnt win because the site would want to keep everyone in, to continue draining the players of rake. Why rig cards to bust the short stack?

That is the point Gary. Cards are manipulated to ensure players are kept in the game. The more players stay the more rake sites make. You have contradicted your argument in the last sentence. The only time that it is not important for players to stay in the game is in tournaments. No rake!

WAKE UP!
 
That is the point Gary. Cards are manipulated to ensure players are kept in the game. The more players stay the more rake sites make. You have contradicted your argument in the last sentence. The only time that it is not important for players to stay in the game is in tournaments. No rake!

WAKE UP!

I can assure you. If you are reckless, you wont last long in a ring game. Two players playing against each other will cancel themselves and lose to the rake but that has nothing to do with a scam. The house get their rake. To win & keep coming back, you have to stay ahead of the rake. For that you need to be above average to walk away a winner. If you dont like the idea of rake, stick to tournaments & you know exactly what you need to do to profit. I just dont go with your argument and I doubt we will agree on this.
 
You are not listening

I can assure you. If you are reckless, you wont last long in a ring game. Two players playing against each other will cancel themselves and lose to the rake but that has nothing to do with a scam. The house get their rake. To win & keep coming back, you have to stay ahead of the rake. For that you need to be above average to walk away a winner. If you dont like the idea of rake, stick to tournaments & you know exactly what you need to do to profit. I just dont go with your argument and I doubt we will agree on this.

WTF are you talking about???? The house like any business (legit or otherwise) will do whatever it takes to make money. To exploit this in Poker, sites manipulate the software to ensure players stay in the game. This will ensure the maximum rake per table is achieved. What's more, by creating action hands it encourages bigger bets and therefore bigger rakes and more of them per hour!

If you say you play live poker, then either you are playing a different game that what I have played for over 30 years, or you are just plain dumb. A mere novice could easily conceive the difference between the two.
 
WTF are you talking about???? The house like any business (legit or otherwise) will do whatever it takes to make money. To exploit this in Poker, sites manipulate the software to ensure players stay in the game. This will ensure the maximum rake per table is achieved. What's more, by creating action hands it encourages bigger bets and therefore bigger rakes and more of them per hour!

If you say you play live poker, then either you are playing a different game that what I have played for over 30 years, or you are just plain dumb. A mere novice could easily conceive the difference between the two.

:rolleyes:
 
Being naive and having tunnel vision will always come back to haunt you. Look and accept the obvious and you will find peace

I know what I think but I am not going to state the obvious.

malleeboy. Did you know that rake is capped at a table? Usually around $3 per table. Did you know that you do not pay into the rake unless you play the hand? Did you know that its not advisable to play every hand? Had you been playing poker for 30 years you might not have the tunnel vision which appears to be haunting you. Do you realize that you are putting forward an argument without offering any more than that. Did you know that if you were a horse, you wouldnt need blinkers? Do you realize that in your feeble attempt to attack my point of view, you are making your own sound less creditable?
 
So Sad

I know what I think but I am not going to state the obvious.

malleeboy. Did you know that rake is capped at a table? Usually around $3 per table. Did you know that you do not pay into the rake unless you play the hand? Did you know that its not advisable to play every hand? Had you been playing poker for 30 years you might not have the tunnel vision which appears to be haunting you. Do you realize that you are putting forward an argument without offering any more than that. Did you know that if you were a horse, you wouldnt need blinkers? Do you realize that in your feeble attempt to attack my point of view, you are making your own sound less creditable?

You are a poor pitiful person. What is your point? My argument is based upon what is possible and what appears to be happening! You have not listened (or understood) what is being presented here.

Your attitude is poor and your level of understanding is weak at best! It is obvious that you lack the ability to understand anything but your point of view.

I'm afraid you have swallowed the online poker dribble hook, line and sinker!

PS Capped as you may say BUT......if (and what I see is so obvious), games are action heavy, more games per hour equals more rake per hour.....does it not??? Is that making any sense at all???
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Meister Ratings

Back
Top