Non-Bonus Complaint hurdle VS Main Street

[maxd]

We're starting to go around and around here so I'm going to make a few closing comments and then attend to other things:

@racefanrob, @gaydave:

• will I specify exact Term clauses and how they were broken? Absolutely not. That would (a) damage the casino's security efforts, (b) violate the casino's trust in us, and (c) play directly into the fraudsters' hands as part of their "adapt and try again" process. I have no intention of aiding and abetting the bad guys. If you want further details about the Terms and violations talk to the casino.
  .
• is "go elsewhere" out of line? I think not. For racefan at least this thread has been one potshot at me and Casinomeister after another. Standard advice in a case where a member has nothing but complaints about the site and it's services is exactly what I gave: hit the road if you're only here to tell us how crummy we are.
  .
• you guys harped away that no Term(s) had been specified when in fact they had, repeatedly. Sorry if the "can't read" statement was a source of irritation but I reckon everyone will recover from their wounds in the fullness of time.
  .
• you guys seem to be under a number of misconceptions, not the least of which is that I somehow do the Pitch-A-Bitch stuff in isolation. I do not. Bryan is kept up to date with every move on every case. So when you're barking at me about a case, or complaining about "my" decision, you are addressing us both. FYI.
  .
• this "judge and jury" stuff keeps coming up and represents another fundamental misunderstanding about what we do here. Our purpose with the Pitch-A-Bitch process is to "assist a player when a casino's customer service fails". No more, no less. There is no judge nor jury because we are not a court. We try to help where such help is justified. In a case where there is sufficient and convincing evidence of player fraud we withdraw that offer to help, largely because we're being lied to. Don't like the free service we offer? Sorry to hear that but you know where the door is.
  .
• another misconception: I am accusing the player(s) of breaking the Term specified. Wrong. The casino named the Term being broken and shared the evidence with us. I only repeated the Term for clarification. In any case, as I've said before, given the situation and the evidence it's "game over" at that point. If the players want to pursue the case they're welcome to go back to their accuser, the casino. AFAIC we're satisfied and done.
  .
• misconception #4: the Pitch-A-Bitch is a "public court". First of all, we're not a court: re-read the bit about "judge and jury" stuff above. Secondly the Pitch-A-Bitch process is by nature and design a private and closed procedure. I see no compelling reason to change that now, certainly not to satisfy the complaints of one or two people who are obviously associated with fraudsters who have been banned from the site. Don't like this? Talk to Bryan, he owns Casinomeister and the Pitch-A-Bitch process: his word is the only one that really counts when it comes to Pitch-A-Bitch policy matters.
  .
• I never said "I have all the evidence". What I said was "we have seen sufficient and convincing evidence." You guys repeatedly twisting what I say because it gives you something to continue hollering about is a waste of my time.

If someone wishes to reach me directly please use the PM service (Link Outdated / Removed). If something needs our immediate attention please feel free to use the "Report Post" feature:

Attach Removed (Old not found)

 

[Tengil]

They say "forfeit", you say "steal". When it comes to fraudsters and their deposits I say "whatever".

And you or the casino are the one(s) making the call? When it comes to deposits that are players own money. Cant believe what Im reading..

Pure and simple theft and you seem to condone such behaviour.

 

[silcnlayc]

spiderlegz: Originally Posted by maxd
They say "forfeit", you say "steal". When it comes to fraudsters and their deposits I say "whatever".

And you or the casino are the one(s) making the call? When it comes to deposits that are players own money. Cant believe what Im reading..

Pure and simple theft and you seem to condone such behaviour.

spiderlegz, I feel you were misreading his post...I read it in the way that if one tried to abuse a casino in terms of ripping them off, he then condones keeping their monies...not everybody's just the scam artists..this is to keep them from trying again with the same monies they tried with in the first place...somewhat like a fee for cheating type thing...which I agree with.

Why keep funding underhanded schemes and encouraging them to try again repeatedly and paying them to do it type thing (returning their monies) . The consequence for cheaters should be a loss of monies invested IMO. No sense in rewarding them for continuing to try theivery I believe.

.

 

[Tengil]

spiderlegz, I feel you were misreading his post...I read it in the way that if one tried to abuse a casino in terms of ripping them off, he then condones keeping their monies...not everybody's just the scam artists..this is to keep them from trying again with the same monies they tried with in the first place...somewhat like a fee for cheating type thing...which I agree with.

Why keep funding underhanded schemes and encouraging them to try again repeatedly and paying them to do it type thing (returning their monies) . The consequence for cheaters should be a loss of monies invested IMO. No sense in rewarding them for continuing to try theivery I believe.

.

When keeping someones deposit then a "trial" should be held where the player actually could defend themselfs against casinos. A casino can simply say you were cheating and thus steal the deposits.
Only in online gambling that can be considered proper behaviour.

Plus this site has made many mistakes during years.

So who decides who is a "fraudster" and allows the casino to keep the players own money? Should be a judge or abritrator who is totally independent and has no ties to either party.
You cant just say we have evidence against you and leave it there. Well apparently in online gambling you can.

Theres a reason why the big bookies never keep deposits when suspecting cheating even if their security is miles ahead of some online casino clipjoint. No wonder online gambling is in its current state when things like this is considered ok.

 

[Nifty29]

And you or the casino are the one(s) making the call? When it comes to deposits that are players own money. Cant believe what Im reading..

Pure and simple theft and you seem to condone such behaviour.

So, based on your comments in this thread, you believe that :

1. The casino is scum and criminal

2. Casinomeister supports scum and criminal behavior.

These are pretty serious statements, particularly the latter.

I hope you can at least do Max the courtesy of providing evidence and explaining yourself.

Confiscating the deposits of fraudsters I.e. the tool used to commit the crime is necessary not only as a deterrent, but also covers some of the costs involved with exposing these worms. Why should I have to pay for it?

 

[greasemonkey]

So, based on your comments in this thread, you believe that :



I hope you can at least do Max the courtesy of providing evidence and explaining yourself.

Nifty, would that not be a double standard? If he gave max the evidence then he would be playing right into his hands. There is no evidence needed to be revealed. just suffice it to say that he has enough evidence that he can assume guilt and be done with any more looking into it.

lol.. Im just kidding obviously but that is what it looks like from the reader's standpoint on this thread. Hey, I was called guilty of having multiple accounts and got into a blow up on these boards with max and Bryan too. Actually, Nifty, The difference is that Bryan actually stepped in and for one moment stopped taking the casino's word for gospel and contacted me to ask for specifics. What appeared to be an overwhelming case against me was just egg on the face for whatever process takes place here. At the same time, I mentioned earlier in this conversation that I have been kicked out also from mainstreet. I have no reason to pab because I had no money to claim. Pretty much though since I am kicked out of the casino am I not then presumed to be guilty of fraud even though nobody asked me any questions? Or am I only guilty of fraud if I have won and want my money?



For Max:
On another obvious note. This site draws traffic because it is supposedly a player advocate site. Now that can mean many things but the free service that keeps getting mentioned is a way to advertise the site and get people who gamble to come here and feel safe using the links here which is how Bryan earns income. If players are not really looked after and nobody really investigates the whole story then it is a bit misleading.

In this particular case I cannot begin to imagine what fraud took place. Everything mentioned here screams of filthy casino tactics. No bonus, no fake accounts, no age or area problems (from the approved documents obviously), no problems in payment. Clearly there is no way to collude or syndicate bet playing single player games and without a bonus.

I want to believe that it is just a case of fraud getting caught but all of my intellect forces me to have huge doubts. I cannot imagine how these players cheated if all of the statements of facefan are true.

If they played with the same style and know each other but are seperate people with seperate addresses playing at different times and without bonuses then cheating or fraud cannot be accepted as reasons to keep all of their money. I am in agreement with that and I cannot get past that point.

OK, then your not a judge between the casino and player. you really are only here to contact support on the player's behalf I guess. . You did judge these players guilty and ban them without a trial though.

 

[Jasminebed]

Although the PAB process is not a court, it is important to remember that it is "alleged" that the OP and another player were part of a syndicate.

I've seen it proposed by a casino before that two players were colluding just because they came from the same town.

I'm not familiar with what affiliate they signed up through, or what gambling advice might be offered at that forum.

I believe if there is a preponderence of evidence that the player(s) were "up-to-something", then withholding winnings is justified.

I don't feel without proof that deposits should be seized.

But as Maxd has said, this is not a court, and his rulings are not binding, nor prohibit anyone seeking further redress elsewhere, including through the courts.

But if the play has been without bonuses, I think the casino's arguments falter a little.

Even player-to-player transfers via ewallets are not always nefarious, especially for people that know each other in real life.

The "we can't say anything because then the fraudsters will get smarter" stance is understandable, but it gives the innocent player no guidelines on how to avoid being misidentified as such.

I first became familiar with the concept of syndicate betting in the context of a bricks and mortar casino. At a certain point progressive jackpots become EV+, and in this case it was a progressive VP game. A group of players (a syndicate if you will) would play to hit the Royal and share the risks and the winnings.

Main Street is RTG, I'm sure there are progressives that are higher than others at any given time. It certainly is not an uncommon strategy for a player to play the highest progressive in the casino. For table games or VP with known odds, some players will only play the progressives when it is an EV+ bet. This is no guarantee of winning however, and not all players playing the game would be part of any alleged "syndicate".

I live in a country where it's "Innocent until proven Guilty", and we accept that sometimes justice fails, and that it's better that the guilty go unpunished than the innocent are wrongfully punished.

Except in cases with the strongest proof, player deposits should be returned.

Main Street may want to look at reprimanding the affiliate webmaster encouraging betting styles it does not like.

 

[Tengil]

So, based on your comments in this thread, you believe that :

1. The casino is scum and criminal

2. Casinomeister supports scum and criminal behavior.

These are pretty serious statements, particularly the latter.

I hope you can at least do Max the courtesy of providing evidence and explaining yourself.

Confiscating the deposits of fraudsters I.e. the tool used to commit the crime is necessary not only as a deterrent, but also covers some of the costs involved with exposing these worms. Why should I have to pay for it?

This site has made mistakes, Bryan has admitted that. Every ones makes them. So its not 100% sure. And to confiscate/steal someones OWN money there must be 100% certainity.

I bolded one word in your post. You mentioned crime. Now if you think a few minutes about the word and what it means you should accknowledge the fact that its not up to the casino or this site to decide anything in such cases.

Again just the casinos word or what this site decides is not enough to steal deposits. I have no beef against confiscating winnings in "almost" certain cases, it comes with the game.

And if I wouldnt have any trust in CM I wouldnt post here.

Edit: Jasminebed sums it up perfectly.

 

[gaydave]

Just to add a bit of info to jasmine's post. It says they are using EWX. If EWX means ewalletxpress then that means it is impossible for them to transfer money back and forth. ewalletxpress doesn't have that feature and to my knowledge it never has.

 

[Casinomeister]

And you or the casino are the one(s) making the call? When it comes to deposits that are players own money. Cant believe what Im reading..

Pure and simple theft and you seem to condone such behaviour.

Please understand Max was only demonstrating two sides of a coin. Don't get all caught up on terminology. And if you commit fraud - you lose your deposit. I would think that a player with your experience understands the dilemma that fraudulent players incur on casinos that are trying to provide a service to real players. It's costly and most casinos don't tolerate it. Commit unwanted advantage play - sure, you'll probably get your deposit back. Commit fraud? You're on your own.

I for one won't tolerate it. Especially when these dickheads waste my time and Max's.

...Plus this site has made many mistakes during years...

Many? Out of the hundreds of PABs I can count the "mistakes" probably on one hand. And if a mistake was made, we ate crow and made good on it. Please don't try to insinuate we're a bunch of fuck ups.

Further - this site makes zilch dinero with PABs. The amount of traffic this site receives for the PABs is minimal. It's mostly problematic players who use this service the most - and these players are a minority. You'll notice that a majority of the members here have never PABd. That's saying something.

Sure, problematic players may have the loudest voices, but like I said - they are a minority. I could easily shut down the PAB service and give Max something else to do. That really wouldn't make a difference dollar-wise to me - so please don't think Casinomeister thrives off of the complaints - we don't.

As for this issue, it's just another example of a simple problem getting all twisted around. We have players in this forum committing player fraud. They know it - we know it, but unfortunately, we're not willing to discuss the minute details. You can cry me a river, but it won't happen.

PABing is a simple process. You tell us what the problem is, and we try to sort it for you. And it is wise when PABing to give us ALL the information we need like "oh, and by the way, there may be a problem since I play at the same time as five of my friends who all live in the same area, and we do this all the time...not just at this casino, but at others who have busted us as well..." I would think that would be crucial information to bring up, especially when the casino is convinced that the player is either working as a syndicate, or has multiple accounts.

Again, if the PAB service doesn't work for you, then fine and dandy. You have other options - I'll even point you into the right direction for you to hopefully solve your issue. All you have to do is ask.

 

[racefanrob]

I for one won't tolerate it. Especially when these dickheads waste my time and Max's.





As for this issue, it's just another example of a simple problem getting all twisted around. We have players in this forum committing player fraud. They know it - we know it, but unfortunately, we're not willing to discuss the minute details. You can cry me a river, but it won't happen.

PABing is a simple process. You tell us what the problem is, and we try to sort it for you. And it is wise when PABing to give us ALL the information we need like "oh, and by the way, there may be a problem since I play at the same time as five of my friends who all live in the same area, and we do this all the time...not just at this casino, but at others who have busted us as well..." I would think that would be crucial information to bring up, especially when the casino is convinced that the player is either working as a syndicate, or has multiple accounts.

Firstly, if you are referring to ME then you are referring to all the players getting kicked out of Lock last year. That is true, I was kicked out of Lock and never submitted a complaint at all. Again, I jumped on the casino or max to provide proof. Nobody had any proof. I know who I am. I know that I am legit and I believe that most players offered to submit whatever documentation was needed to prove their innocence. That episode just went away. I had no claim. I sure as hell wasn't fruadulent in anything that I did there. So if your calling ME a dickhead then that shows a lot of class. Really, no matter who you are referring to it is quite a classy move.

This time, I again have no claim nor did I even play at this group but I do know two people who have a hell of a claim against a casino group that you list as accredited. and on that note:

Hurdle claims he has never been kicked out of any casino prior to mainstreet so the part of your quote that is bolded/underlined would be wrong. Here is part of the last email recieved from Hurdle:

aire@zoominternet.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: drama

Just wow. Why am I bothering pursuing this now? Obviously nothing is going to get done with these guys. These guys are not going to do anything with this.

here, just post this for me.

I have never. Repeat NEVER been kicked out of a casino in the past. Not ever. I will be glad to give my username to have this checked at every casino I have ever played at. I will give complete screenshots of my ewalletxpress account to verify all the casinos that I have played at and how much I deposit. Hell, I'll give complete screenshots of all of my transaction history inside of each casino too if that would help anything. I'm sure Bill will do the same. At least tell them to get SOME facts correct before banning, insulting and labeling me. WTF?!!? ...........

I cut the rest of the email off because it serves no purpose and isn't nice.

Basically, here is my friend willing to give any details at all of his play, his banking, his history. He is claiming what you are saying is false and can prove it.
That is a lot more convincing and admirable than just trying to take somebody's word for it. He is willing to prove it.

BTW, why not just unban the guy and if he wants to continue this then allow him. He is listed as banned for pab fraud. He is swearing there was no pab fraud. Is there even a trial for that? Or did the casino say he commited pab fraud and as such that is good enough research and we can all just move on.

If it appears as though I am getting an attitude then you are correct. I feel so angry knowing these men and knowing this is wrong. Insulting them on top of banning them and so on is grounds for me getting feisty. On top of that I have watched the complaints come and go here and it is the same response and attitude towards the victims.


like you said, "go somewhere else". I realize that you may be the only hope for these guys, but you aren't even listening. I think you will do right if you know which is right but you aren't. It is frustrating on that front also.
Can you explain how "no bonus, no possible way of syndicate betting, no multiple accounts" means that they are frauds? It makes no sense and it is too much for normal thinking people to just accept.

 

[Jasminebed]

I actually find it very plausible that an affiliate could solicit players from the same location on a casino shuttle. I go on buses regularly, even asked 32Red if they had a "refer a friend" program after all the interest from fellow bus patrons after my big win this summer. Heck, a lot of the buses arriving at the casino carry players from just one building or complex.

They could even be the kind of players casinos don't like. Playing low house edge games with optimal strategy, cashing out when ahead a certain amount.

But that's a long way from being "frauds" if they are all separate people with verifiable identities.

I'm not privy to the same information as Maxd and Bryan, but especially if there was no bonus use, the deposits should be returned IMO in the absence of concrete PROOF.

 

[SlotsLover]

question for Max

Max,

Can you answer one question, and if you cannot, I completely understand:

Were bonuses used in any way or at any time by any of these players?

thanks

 

[racefanrob]

Max,

Can you answer one question, and if you cannot, I completely understand:

Were bonuses used in any way or at any time by any of these players?

thanks

I'm not sure what Max will say but I can tell you that YES these players say that they have used bonuses at these casinos at various times but certainly not all the time. YES they claimed the signup bonuses at all 4 casinos. Hurdle won on 1 of these sign up bonuses, gablock didn't win on any of them.

but

NO, they did not use bonuses to win except for one of the 3 cashouts that are being stolen. Hurdle has one cashout with a bonus at one casino from Nov. 6th and one without a bonus at a different casino on Nov. 8th. Gablock has only one cashout and that does NOT involve a bonus either and is from Oct 31st which is prior to hurdle ever playing at the casinos.
Back on Nov. 3rd Slots Plus paid gablock on a win that had NO bonus used at all. This payment was on a cashout from Oct. 23rd.

NO, they did not use bonuses at the same time nor were they even members at the same time. Gablock cashed out on Oct. 31. Hurdle didn't even join the casino until Nov. 6th. gablock joined in mid September.


*Gablock deposited $2500 in total on Oct 31st before cashing out.(no bonus)

*Hurdle deposited $700 on Nov. 6th at the group. (some with/some without bonuses) His win did have a bonus used.

*Hurdle deposited another $1250 in total on Nov. 8th. (No bonus)

Hope that helps.

 

[maxd]

Were bonuses used in any way or at any time by any of these players?

Don't know off the top of my head, not part of the issue either IMO.

 

[Casinomeister]

I for one won't tolerate it. Especially when these dickheads waste my time and Max's.

Firstly, if you are referring to ME then you are referring to all the players getting kicked out of Lock last year.

I was making a general comment about fraudsters - those who commit casino fraud and come here acting like they did no wrong. You need to read a bit more carefully.

Btw, I don't remember mentioning Lock anywhere. Funny how you brought that up.

 

[Nifty29]

First Rob said no bonuses were involved, then he admits they were.

I wonder what else he is neglecting to mention.

I have to admit that Rob seems to have an incredibly intimate knowledge of the specifics of the players involved, almost as if he were a member of a .....club or something ....

Why were you thrown out of Lock Rob?

Someone said it earlier - methinks he protesteth too much.

IMO Max isn't the only one here who knows exactly what happened, it's just that he has no reason to be economical with the truth.

 

[colly]

I find it disappointing that some threads on casinomeister seem to be degenerating into an us v the casino and insults and mudslinging. (warning going into schooldmarm mode) I have seem this happen on other well respected boards and this was one of the reasons I stayed out of the forums for a long time.

Some points

There are good and bad casino operators and good and bad OP's. Yes some OP's don't do there homework and some are out to max every angle they can- these guy are the equivalent of a rogue casino and deserve the same treatment as we give a rogue casino= In the end the only person they hurt is you the other OP's that try to do the right thing- one of the reasons T and C's are so convoluted these days

One of the reasons people should be posting PAB.s is that this is an impartial site which will weigh up the FACTS rather than automatically assuming the casino is wrong or the payer is right.
If you don't trust the sites impartiality why bother - this is a free service to OP's - try and respect the time and effort that Max CM and the ther mod's put in on your behalf.

Whether you always agree with Max or not he speaks his mind, trys to do his best and often gets zero thanks, insults and a lot of crap from the people he is trying to assist- and not for the first time, Not good enough.

If you are going to post try and make it factual and polite- bald statements of fraud and insults are not useful and quite frankly make the poster look very one sided in their viewpoint if not in some cases plain rude.

Robust debate is fine- shooting off insults is not robust debate.

I would hate to see CM go the way of some other formerly great forums due to the lack of mutual respect of a minority of board members.

Enough please- can we get back to a forum that is a forum- ie a place for ideas advice discussion and debate.

Lecture now over(LOL)

Cheers
Colly

 

[jetset]

Could not have said it better

 

[vinylweatherman]

The problem seems to be that it looks like a fraud was IMPOSSIBLE to commit in the first place, since no bonuses were involved.

It's not as "impossible" as you think though, when an "affiliate on a casino shuttle bus" is added to the mix.

These is also the possibility that the funds used in the deposits were "dodgy", and present the risk that the casino will be subjected to a "chargeback" at some later stage when the banking and processing parties figure out what has been going on.

Further, are these players REALLY losing this deposited money, or is this merely the proceeds of earlier success.

We expect that the evidence is going to be OVERWHELMING against the player, with no room for "reasonable doubt" that they were all colluding to pull off some kind of collective scam.

5 players knowing each other to this level of intimacy does seem rather odd, and does suggest they are acting together. If they didn't take bonuses, they did so for a REASON, and perhaps this reason was that the lack of bonuses made the "scam" EASIER to work in some way.

The other question is the definition of "fraud". Some casinos seem to define "advantage play" as "fraud". This is NOT the case, and leads to suspicions in other cases that when casinos cry "fraud", they really mean "advantage play" rather than actual "fraud".

Some Rival casinos were crying "fraud" when it turned out it was nothing more than "advantage play" that was going on, with players taking the best bonuses, and taking the terms to their limits without actually breaking them.

Can we have an assurance from Max that this was NOT merely "advantage play", but outright FRAUD perpetrated by this group of players.

 

[maxd]

Can we have an assurance from Max that this was NOT merely "advantage play", but outright FRAUD perpetrated by this group of players.

Yes, quite so.

 

[jeebus]

Further - this site makes zilch dinero with PABs. The amount of traffic this site receives for the PABs is minimal. It's mostly problematic players who use this service the most - and these players are a minority. You'll notice that a majority of the members here have never PABd. That's saying something.

Sure, problematic players may have the loudest voices, but like I said - they are a minority. I could easily shut down the PAB service and give Max something else to do. That really wouldn't make a difference dollar-wise to me - so please don't think Casinomeister thrives off of the complaints - we don't.

I think you may be underestimating your percieved value here. Sure when it comes to all of the "long time" board members, surely they are not sticking around just for PAB service. However, what do you think brought everyone here? Players, especially new ones, want to feel comfortable with what they are doing and sometimes with a little research they find you and you are that comfort. Knowing should they ever have a problem, they have a voice. On an even larger scale, where does a player turn when they need help. That is what you are known for. I could go to several gambling boards right now and I would bet ( I like to gamble!) that if polled the majority of gambling "novices" that have heard of you would associate you with a "player advocate" and " someone to help"

I am a perfect example of this. Just recently I signed up to the forums and am using the PAB as we speak. However, I first visited your site 5 years ago because of a discussion about a certain " player advocate that will help you get your money if you deserve it" The discussion was on a poker forum with a discussion on casinos. There was some talk about " theres no way any of those places will ever pay even if one were to win ( a common perception)" and one of the other members had piped in " if any of you are ever faced with a situation like that the "CASINOMESITER" will help. Its what he does" That is what brought me here, 5 years ago, even though it appears I just showed up. I am also quite certain, that every microgaming casino I played at was signed up through your " Good List"

Do NOT underestimate the PAB's value to a player.

Sorry for keeping a circling discussion going, this comment by you just stirred something in me.

 

[silcnlayc]

jeebus: I think you may be underestimating your percieved value here.

Yep, Bryan does, as does Max...One is our teddy bear and the other is our security blanky....definitely a comfort and security thing...and it goes a long way for many of us..even when we seem ungrateful..we still want to know you guys are there...

.

 

[jeebus]

Exactly! you said what i menat to say in 700 less words!

 

[Casinomeister]

I'll opt for being the Teddy Bear.