Your Input Please How to make the gambling industry more respectable

[nikantw]

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.

I proposed a pop up (like the ones for time spend and money lost) that would say "this game operates at a lower RTP setting of xx.xx%. That means your money will be lost a lot faster than the xx.xx% version."

 

[trancemonkey]

What is unethical about having each casino being able to decide its own RTP for a game?

It's a free market - it's up to each casino what RTP to use, and the players will decide. If the players don't know what the exact RTP is because they don't look, they will still feel the difference - and can then decide where they want to play based on their experience. It is arguable that every game should be displayed on the loading page - and then we don't have this issue. But that only works if all markets have the same tax rules, etc... otherwise it's still arguably unfair.

And with regards to a game having different RTPs at different sites - I pay different prices for exactly the same goods at different supermarkets - are you suggesting that every single price should be exactly the same for the same goods? That doesn't make any sense..

 

[trancemonkey]

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.

I love the fact you have such a simplistic view of the whole industry - if only things were that simple

 

[CompleteFailure]

What is unethical about having each casino being able to decide its own RTP for a game?

It's a free market - it's up to each casino what RTP to use, and the players will decide. If the players don't know what the exact RTP is because they don't look, they will still feel the difference - and can then decide where they want to play based on their experience. It is arguable that every game should be displayed on the loading page - and then we don't have this issue. But that only works if all markets have the same tax rules, etc... otherwise it's still arguably unfair.

And with regards to a game having different RTPs at different sites - I pay different prices for exactly the same goods at different supermarkets - are you suggesting that every single price should be exactly the same for the same goods? That doesn't make any sense..

I told you why it's unethical. Can you read?
The player has a concept about the game in their head. That idea comes from their own experience, their friends', affiliate reviews, etc. That informs them about the quality of the product. They normally don't even know what RTP is but they do have a general idea about high paying/low paying slots, good/bad slots. When you change something as important as the RTP, you are essentially changing the slot while not changing its name. You are offering an inferior product packaged as the same one.

Your analogy is awful. Prices are clearly displayed and understood by everyone.

A better analogy would be a pharmaceutical company offers a standard version of their vitamins. Patients use them based on previous health results, recommendations from friends, and from doctors. Then the pharmaceutical company begins offering the "same" vitamin in the same packaging and under the same name for certain pharmacies to sell. On the bottle, in tiny print, is the disclaimer that this version contains half the nutrients. Some pharmacies don't offer any such disclaimer.

Oh, well, it's a business after all, not a charity. It's a free market, so let's trick the customer. You should reread the title of this thread.

 

[trancemonkey]

I told you why it's unethical. Can you read?
The player has a concept about the game in their head. That idea comes from their own experience, their friends', affiliate reviews, etc. That informs them about the quality of the product. They normally don't even know what RTP is but they do have a general idea about high paying/low paying slots, good/bad slots. When you change something as important as the RTP, you are essentially changing the slot while not changing its name. You are offering an inferior product packaged as the same one.

Your analogy is awful. Prices are clearly displayed and understood by everyone.

A better analogy would be a pharmaceutical company offers a standard version of their vitamins. Patients use them based on previous health results, recommendations from friends, and from doctors. Then the pharmaceutical company begins offering the "same" vitamin in the same packaging and under the same name for certain pharmacies to sell. On the bottle, in tiny print, is the disclaimer that this version contains half the nutrients. Some pharmacies don't offer any such disclaimer.

Oh, well, it's a business after all, not a charity. It's a free market, so let's trick the customer. You should reread the title of this thread.

And I told you why I don't think it is unethical AND the prices are shown to people. You choose not to look for the price, that's your fault.

And as I have repeatedly said, I would be all for RTP being much more prominently displayed.

So, thanks for asking, but yes I can read

 

[CompleteFailure]

And I told you why I don't think it is unethical AND the prices are shown to people. You choose not to look for the price, that's your fault.

And as I have repeatedly said, I would be all for RTP being much more prominently displayed.

So, thanks for asking, but yes I can read

Address my analogy. You would certainly lose in any reasonable court. Stick to coding.

 

[trancemonkey]

Address my analogy. You would certainly lose in any reasonable court. Stick to coding.

I wouldn't lose in any court...

It's like the whole "Terms and conditions" crap. No one ever reads them, but not reading them is not an excuse. The information is there whether you choose to look for it or not.

That said, that doesn't mean that what is legal is necessarily moral, and vice versa.

 

[CompleteFailure]

I wouldn't lose in any court...

It's like the whole "Terms and conditions" crap. No one ever reads them, but not reading them is not an excuse. The information is there whether you choose to look for it or not.

That said, that doesn't mean that what is legal is necessarily moral, and vice versa.

(Guy unaware of legislation regarding hidden terms and conditions (eg. in credit cards)).

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.

 

[trancemonkey]

(Guy unaware of legislation regarding hidden terms and conditions (eg. in credit cards)).

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
YES - the RTP is clearly stated in the help file. I can buy a BMW that looks exactly the same as another BMW, but it has a vastly inferior engine under the hood. But i will repeat, again - it should arguably be made much clearer.

Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
YES - seeing as i studied law at college and part of my university course. I know exactly what they would do. I also know exactly how terms and conditions work, and that hidden terms and conditions would not in the slightest way be seen as the same as RTP, which is clearly stated in the help files.

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

Simple concepts really

I think we should just agree that we have different views here, and move on...l

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
YES - the RTP is clearly stated in the help file. I can buy a BMW that looks exactly the same as another BMW, but it has a vastly inferior engine under the hood. But i will repeat, again - it should arguably be made much clearer.

Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
YES - seeing as i studied law at college and part of my university course. I know exactly what they would do. I also know exactly how terms and conditions work, and that hidden terms and conditions would not in the slightest way be seen as the same as RTP, which is clearly stated in the help files.

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

Simple concepts really

I think we should just agree that we have different views here, and move on...l

I considered the car analogy but it's not similar. Differences in car specs are stated clearly and buyers are keenly aware of these. Again, you have to think about the "reasonable person."

Nope, it's not clearly stated. It's hidden, sometimes never stated. Why does Playngo continue to allow operators who withhold it completely?

Sorry, most affiliates don't even know about this. People on this forum were surprised.

Yes, you should play at a reputable casino and only with reputable providers which is the point. Those providers offering bad slots packaged as good slots are not reputable. Playngo, RTG, Pragmatic, etc.

Think about the pharmacy analogy.

Trance Monkey's Pharmacy - has all the brand name vitamins, with their standard name, in their standard package. But before buying the one recommended by your doctor, you have to read through all the ingredients of each one and compare it to the standard specs (the standard specs of the one that the doctor recommended, if you can find it). For some vitamins, you will find the standard ingredients, but for others you will find that they have been reduced by half. Sometimes you won't find any information.

Would you recommend this crap pharmacy to anyone?

 

[trancemonkey]

I considered the car analogy but it's not similar. Differences in car specs are stated clearly and buyers are keenly aware of these. Again, you have to think about the "reasonable person."

Nope, it's not clearly stated. It's hidden, sometimes never stated. Why does Playngo continue to allow operators who withhold it completely?

Sorry, most affiliates don't even know about this. People on this forum were surprised.

Yes, you should play at a reputable casino and only with reputable providers which is the point. Those providers offering bad slots packaged as good slots are not reputable. Playngo, RTG, Pragmatic, etc.

Think about the pharmacy analogy.

Trance Monkey's Pharmacy - has all the brand name vitamins, with their standard name, in their standard package. But before buying the one recommended by your doctor, you have to read through all the ingredients of each one and compare it to the standard specs (the standard specs of the one that the doctor recommended, if you can find it). For some vitamins, you will find the standard ingredients, but for others you will find that they have been reduced by half. Sometimes you won't find any information.

Would you recommend this crap pharmacy to anyone?

Where are the differences in the car specs clearly stated? In the documentation that comes with the car? So you have to read it? And you have to understand what all the blurb actually means right?

Re: companies not showing the RTP. I would like to see RTP shown at all times, and i guess that these PNG games are not operating under regulations from UKGC, MGA, Alderney or IOM...

My pharmacy sounds kinda cool - and also, isn't what you describe EXACTLY what happens with many, many products that are supposedly the same, but are actually different? How many people are aware of shrinkflation - this is another form of exactly what you are moaning about, so i assume you are also on consumer forums complaining about only getting a 22g packet of crisps intead of 25g?

 

[CompleteFailure]

Where are the differences in the car specs clearly stated? In the documentation that comes with the car? So you have to read it? And you have to understand what all the blurb actually means right?

Re: companies not showing the RTP. I would like to see RTP shown at all times, and i guess that these PNG games are not operating under regulations from UKGC, MGA, Alderney or IOM...

My pharmacy sounds kinda cool - and also, isn't what you describe EXACTLY what happens with many, many products that are supposedly the same, but are actually different? How many people are aware of shrinkflation - this is another form of exactly what you are moaning about, so i assume you are also on consumer forums complaining about only getting a 22g packet of crisps intead of 25g?

LOL, have you every bought a car? The salesman will explain to you carefully the difference in specs. The prices will be different based on that. Everything is extremely clear. Honda doesn't surreptitiously give you have the horsepower, noting it in the fine print (or not at all), while charging you the same price. And your average buyer knows to look for these things.

Ok, so you agree, PNG should be shamed. What are you even arguing about? Rename or disclaimer.

You would recommend your friend to visit your pharmacy and read through all ingredients hoping to get the correct item? Glad I'm not your friend. What about people who have no idea that the pharmacy practices this?

 

[paul7388]

I am so glad we get free prescriptions in Scotland and just hand it over and wait for the pharmacist to give us it.

 

[trancemonkey]

And I'm out...

 

[CompleteFailure]

And I'm out...

Well, to be fair, you did make some good faith arguments. Cheers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, to be fair, you did make some good faith arguments. Cheers.

I'm not religious, so I doubt it

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

One last point, often in law, you create the policy that is easiest to enforce. The affs have limited knowledge and there are tons of them. The choke-point is the provider. Responsibility is really provider > operator > aff > player. What an aff can do is not recommend providers that provide wildly different versions of their games. They can say something like: "We don't recommend playing Playngo slots because we cannot tell if their slot games are good or not since they vary dramatically from site to site." The aff yesnocasino.com does this nicely.

 

[goatwack]

To wit, just imagine if the Pharma industry and games providers teamed up.

I could compare labels and get the Bonanza with the highest vitamin D

 

[geordiecolin]

So I presume that having a games rtp highlighted prior to commencing a game is widely agreed upon as good casino practice?

 

[goatwack]

So I presume that having a games rtp highlighted prior to commencing a game is widely agreed upon as good casino practice?

Yes, it's unanimous

Only question remains: on loading screen, big bold writing next to game, or popup box just as you're about to bust

 

[bruinsdude]

One provider, one set or two max of RTP per game, someone put out an APB on the creators of classics like Jurassic Park, Immortal Romance, Raping Rhino etc...lock them away in a lab for a year and see what they come up with. Other than that the industry is what it is. Sadly we live in an electronic age where money laundering and fraud are a real concern so there is no escaping all this SOW and other validation BS that goes on now that never did before....

 

[Slottery]

How many threads still will be hijacked for different RTP discussions? Happy that Bryan had his conference already where he asked feedback, from this mess it would have been impossible to pick. Would it anyhow be possible to remove RTP argues to their own thread where these could be all together or even open new one every time when there is need to speak about it again and again?

Nothing against that topic but it makes some threads very heavy to read when you first spend 20 minutes your time to by trying to find if there are any messages about topic itself or these same arguments. I guess i'm not only one with that opinion, good and important thing to discuss but not in so many threads what some readers constantly look at if there's new interesting posts about topic it was created.

 

[RickyMicky]

Unless I've missed something, casinos - reputable ones - are regulated, and games audited, and by and large, slots provided by third parties

I learned information about the regulation of online casinos and often this is just a formality and nothing more. And there are a huge number of online casinos and many of them are scammers and this is not regulated in any way. I meant it too.

 

[Hydr0]

Do the words ‘gambling’ and ‘respectable’ really belong in the same sentence?

My peers have it covered ....

I’ll add.... Can’t stand multiple clone slots (it’s pure lazy ass marketing), nor free spin offer spam (with max cash out $50) in an effort to lure a player back ( doesn’t work on me, but the intent pisses me off), especially after I’ve dumped many more times that in a single session. Insult. Not respectable.

Oh yeah, and the ridiculous spin speed on some new slots, high variance inclusive (notably betsoft), without the option to slow down. I like to chill when I play slots, and not have my bankroll raped in minutes!

PS: sorry, and credit to, if someone already mentioned at least one of these.

 

[DeidreB]

I would like to understand the whole picture better, RTP is one factor but what are the other factors that influence the outcome, if RTP's can be reduced, what does configurable items like max-coin influence on the outcomes. Recent thread here many players are saying that they just can't win anymore, I am sure all folks who play have this complaint. But I have noticed this, the play seems very circular, no great wins, losses and my sense is that wins are capped at a value of say up to 500...never get much past that. My concern is the control that the casino has, unfortunately it seems to take the fun out of it...not sure if anyone else has noticed this. When the casino can make better predictions on things like player behavior, its an influencing factor but drains all excitement out it...