Your Input Please How to make the gambling industry more respectable

[Kroffe]

I disagree with that. The RTP is the return to player, which, I would say, in a comparison to a car is similar to MPG, which I think almost everyone understands at a basic level.

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

 

[dionysus]

I disagree with that. The RTP is the return to player, which, I would say, in a comparison to a car is similar to MPG, which I think almost everyone understands at a basic level.

ok, so, you're essentially agreeing with me on one hand
the information is readily available out there to understand to anyone with an internet connection and, in your words, everyone understands at a basic level - so really 0 reason for the casino to sit down and educate the masses when it's already out there

post the rtp, i agree with that part as ive said

 

[dionysus]

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

took me a second too, as we'd use km per litre

 

[Matti]

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Not being 'too' greedy is the key to longevity.

Somebody gets it! A basic business principle that has seemingly gone on vacation over recent times. Steady growth and a core of loyal custom is a fundamental to most businesses. Greed always gets punished eventually.

 

[snorky510238]

Somebody gets it! A basic business principle that has seemingly gone on vacation over recent times. Steady growth and a core of loyal custom is a fundamental to most businesses. Greed always gets punished eventually.

Yes unless they are aware that changes are coming regarding max stakes etc and have decided to rob us all blind in the meantime. There’s not a chance games are playing like they were 2 years ago.

 

[goatwack]

The whole industry's built on greed and compulsive addictive behaviours, all they've realised is why let punters lose using current methods, when we can just ramp it up a notch and they won't even care enough to notice.

So merely greedier, from an already obscenely-greedy position

 

[colinsunderland]

ok, so, you're essentially agreeing with me on one hand
the information is readily available out there to understand to anyone with an internet connection and, in your words, everyone understands at a basic level - so really 0 reason for the casino to sit down and educate the masses when it's already out there

post the rtp, i agree with that part as ive said

no, thats the point, everyone doesn't understand at a basic level, I would bet 90% of people who play slots have no idea what RTP is. If they did they wouldn't put a penny in pub slots with 72% or so. I would imagine 90% of people who use forums and suchlike know what RTP is, but not the average punter who sticks £20 a week in to play Starburst.

 

[dionysus]

Quite a lot of people probably don't - but then they probably shouldnt be flogging in twenties if they havent a basic clue about slots.
It takes 15 minutes of basic research (not even) when these people cleatly have enough internet savvy and access to do all the other things like find a casino, register, deposit, spin, upload docs etc
you dont need to join a forum to type into google 'what is casino rtp'?
I just did and it pulled up a zillion easy-to-understand pages
15 minutes or less of reading for something someone wants to spend their time and money on weekly
a little due diligence and self-responsibility go a long way

 

[samdog21]

So first off Canadian input count? Giving it anyway lol. verification mandatory before deposit I do anyway that way one headache out of the way if it's an honest casino . Also mandatory lockwithdraw. Example ojo top accredited casino no lock encourages you to reverse withdrawals not good. My input ty samdog21

 

[Guntis]

The whole industry's built on greed and compulsive addictive behaviours, all they've realised is why let punters lose using current methods, when we can just ramp it up a notch and they won't even care enough to notice.

So merely greedier, from an already obscenely-greedy position

Agree! Also, smarter ones know very well that gambling will exist forever, so they don't have to care about what we seasoned players know and remember.

There are and always will be thousands of new people in the world who open their first online casino accounts without knowing what high/low variance, RTP, Netent or Microgaming even is.

 

[colinsunderland]

Quite a lot of people probably don't - but then they probably shouldnt be flogging in twenties if they havent a basic clue about slots.
It takes 15 minutes of basic research (not even) when these people cleatly have enough internet savvy and access to do all the other things like find a casino, register, deposit, spin, upload docs etc
you dont need to join a forum to type into google 'what is casino rtp'?
I just did and it pulled up a zillion easy-to-understand pages
15 minutes or less of reading for something someone wants to spend their time and money on weekly
a little due diligence and self-responsibility go a long way

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

 

[dionysus]

Also mandatory lockwithdraw. Example ojo top accredited casino no lock encourages you to reverse withdrawals not good. My input ty samdog21

agreed; all WDs should be able to be flushed whilst processing- you click WD, it goes poof! until you get it - it's pretty ridiculous to have to use a TAB to insure you don't reinvest while any WDs are potentially stalled/waiting

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

well, I suppose this is a greater debate (RTP) than Bryan is asking for (though fine to debate it, maybe a new thread)
but I'll step out as no point in belabouring it for the purpsoe of this thead for what's been asked

 

[Guntis]

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

I have asked this question a few people before! But I asked it a bit different way: what are your chances to win on this £1 scratch card? And the answer was always: F..k knows!

I guess, about RTP and what it stands for, not even every Indian knows in an off licence shop

 

[CompleteFailure]

How

Depends on the running costs of the casino, for example, what regulatory framework the site is running under - some countries have much higher taxes than others, and so you may have to run at a lower RTP in order to have a business at all.

How would higher taxes require lower RTP? Taxes are not levied on playthrough. They're levied on net profit. All casinos are trying to maximize profit. It's not like some casinos are leaving profit at the table cause taxes in its jurisdiction are lower while another casino cannot leave any profit cause taxes are higher.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do away with operator adjustable RTPs.

Do we have a list of providers that do not allow adjustable RTPs?
I know Playngo and RTG do allow it which is why I *never* play those.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Generally RTP isnt that important for small time gamblers, who are the majority.

Whats important is to get paid when you win, without delays and hassle.
No confusing bonus terms.
Good customer service.
Fast and simple kyc, no ridicolous and unrealistic requests.

Worst is when you play, and something thats supposed to be fun ends in a nightmare of requests, doubts and delays.

Fix that, and we are a long way towards what i would say respectable buisness practice.

I got a new request from a casino for "verification." Supposedly they have a duty to make sure the few hundred quid I used to gamble at their casino, were not gotten from ill-gotten sources (I guess selling drugs, weapons, etc.) so they want to see my income statements!

 

[CompleteFailure]

Such information should be displayed clearly on the games screen,maybe with a link that takes you to a full explaination of what rtp and trtp means.
By providing such information then the player is given fair choice to vacate the game or play it.

If reducing rtp on slots is fair,reasonable and justifiable then why did Videoslots go to such great lengths for as long as possible to suppress their reductions on 3 providers rtp's?

Wow, I thought Videoslots were one of the good ones. Their bonuses are even tied to the RTP of the games! Do you have a link to the discussion on this?

And then even Net Ent is altering the RTP now?

 

[Kroffe]

Wow, I thought Videoslots were one of the good ones. Their bonuses are even tied to the RTP of the games! Do you have a link to the discussion on this?

And then even Net Ent is altering the RTP now?

Pretty sure Netent is not offering different rtp-versions of their slots.
Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming are the providers i as a Swede have a lower rtp on.
It is possible that there are more providers offering different rtp-versions now since that thread is a bit old.

This is the link to the thread.

Lower rtp - CM

 

[Kroffe]

Oh, that depends on your definition of Netent i suppose.
They recently bought Red tiger gaming, so in a way, they do offer lower rtp-versions.
But not on the Netent slots, as far as im aware.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Pretty sure Netent is not offering different rtp-versions of their slots.
Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming are the providers i as a Swede have a lower rtp on.
It is possible that there are more providers offering different rtp-versions now since that thread is a bit old.

This is the link to the thread.

Lower rtp - CM

Thank you very much!
I had stopped following news on gambling cause been so busy. Guess players have to be constantly watching the industry in order to not get shafted.

 

[trancemonkey]

How

How would higher taxes require lower RTP? Taxes are not levied on playthrough. They're levied on net profit. All casinos are trying to maximize profit. It's not like some casinos are leaving profit at the table cause taxes in its jurisdiction are lower while another casino cannot leave any profit cause taxes are higher.

That's not true for everywhere... Italy, for example, is a tax on coin in not net profit.

And also, even if it was net profit, the higher the tax on net profit, the lower the RTP would likely need to be (or the lower the profit margin)...

Casinos are businesses, not charities...

 

[CompleteFailure]

That's not true for everywhere... Italy, for example, is a tax on coin in not net profit.

And also, even if it was net profit, the higher the tax on net profit, the lower the RTP would likely need to be (or the lower the profit margin)...

Casinos are businesses, not charities...

For countries, like Italy that makes sense. Amazing that the tax code would work like that.
For the net profit jurisdiction, I suppose it could happen due to competition - no casinos are able to to offer high RTPs cause of the taxes. In a place with lower taxes, the casinos offering higher RTPs drive out the competitors. That's the real explanation. No casino is leaving money on the table cause they are making "enough."

Regardless, it's bad policy of the providers to allow this. When a player choose a game they are choosing based on their past experience playing it and what they have read in affiliate reviews, forums, etc. Their conception of the game is somewhat abstract but it's not based on nothing or zero expectations. It's based on a broad consensus about the games's worth. When a provider allows an operator to choose an inferior version, it's akin to a bait and switch. If a casino cannot offer higher RTP games, they should just choose the lower ones. That would be the ethical thing to do.

Your oft repeated point about "businesses, not charities" is ridiculous. It doesn't mean they can ignore ethical practices. Would you say that about a factory dumping sewage into a lake or a credit card company that hides increased APRs into its terms? I think you've been in the industry too long - clearly your thinking has gone off the rails a bit.

 

[nikantw]

.....For countries, like Italy that makes sense. Amazing that the tax code would work like that.
...

Frankly the only notataxheaven country I know that has only a tax on net profit is Sweden (and I am not 100% sure about that).
You know, when they ask for a 35% of GGR (gross gambling revenue) that could be more than double the size of the net income of the casino!!

 

[CompleteFailure]

Frankly the only notataxheaven country I know that has only a tax on net profit is Sweden (and I am not 100% sure about that).
You know, when they ask for a 35% of GGR (gross gambling revenue) that could be more than double the size of the net income of the casino!!

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.