Bonus Complaint How Sloty.com and I breached the terms multiple times

[Arenda]

Hi there Casino Meister members, staff, affiliates and all others!

Sorry for this beeing so long I just want to be as detailed as possible but not boring

I have a problem and a lot of people think I am right and over here the PAB was ruled against me so perhaps I am wrong. And before I tried the same at another website and the MGA. Because there was some kind of proof which I don't have, or not have seen they say the casino has some solid points to not pay me.

Anyway let's kick in with a story about online gaming, how a large win can f.#* everything up.

When I created a Sloty account I did not read the terms and condition this was probably my fault because I accepted them at that time. Something I learned recently when I clicked on the MGA logo at Sloty.com is that the company is:
Genesis Global Limited and also owns: Spinit, Vegas hero and Casino Cruise.

The other brands are not mentioned in the T&C or anywhere else on the webiste.

And I am really currious, who reads those the whole terms? Perhaps everyone because I have been scrolling arround the forum and it looks live every body here is a prof casino player .

Lets continue..:

I made several deposits using my bank account and Skrill (which was not my own skrill account but the one my boyfriend and I use and it is on his name but we live together for 11 years), I was a happy spinner!

Arround the 20th of December 2017
I won 700€ I needed to send documents for approval so I could recieve the withdrawl.

On the 23th of December 2017
My documents where all checked/approved and I received an email that all documents where ok and the withdrawls that where pending would be processed as soon as possible. The same day I received the €700 on the Skrill account.

Than I deposited again and again till:

The 28th of December 2017

I hit a monster win on Dead or Alive with a 9 euro a spin bet which made me enter a bonus game with all wilds appearing, so sick! I won close to 12K€ but decided to try and play some other games before I would cash out. I played untill I had €10.500 and made the withdrawl.

I asked support about how I should withdrawl this amount, she explained it had to be in several withdrawls so I made 5 withdrawls in total (4X 2300€ and one time 1300€ )

After that I checked allmost daily with live support untill my account got blocked and not only at Sloty but also at Spinit and this was the first time I knew the company's where contected.

On 02-01-2018
I spoke to empolyee 1, that day he told me my withdrawl was undergoing a routine check and he would escalate the case to management, I told him my account was allready checked in a previous check on the 23th of December and that all my documents should have been ok allready.

On 03-01-2018 I spoke to employee 2, who contacted the relevant department about my withdrawls. I was told I had to resend a screenshot from Skrill with my details visable. I explained in the same chat that the Skrill account was a shared account from me and my boyfriend, and that it was on his name but on the same adress. Empolyee 2 asked me for a moment so she could check with the relevant department, the awnser was: "The skrill account is ok te be in your boyfriends name, we just need to see the details".

Later that day I got back and had another chat with Employee 2, because I did not hear anything about my documents beeing approved for the 2nd time. While we where talking and the employee checked again i got the following message: "they have send you an email that you have been verified"

The email stated that all documents where approved, just like when I withdrew the 700€ and it contained also this sentence "If you have any withdrawls, we will process it as soon as possible" Which made me think finnaly it will come today or maybe tomorrow, justice is served lol.

On 04-01-2018

I receive an email that I have breached the terms and conditions, something I wasn't familiar with at the time. This is the email:

We regret to inform you that after reviewing your account your winnings have been voided due to breaching our Terms and Conditions.

From the documents you have provided it clearly shows that the Skrill account used to fund your account is not in your name but belongs to a 3rd party.

This is a clear breach of our terms and conditions.

Therefore all winnings obtained with the 3rd party deposit have been voided and the original deposit of 25 euros has been returned to your account.

We kindly ask you to request the withdrawal of the 25 euros, and after that you account will remain closed without possibility of reopening.

We invite you to read our terms and conditions specifically clauses number 8.5, 12.1.1 & 14.

And now I am thinking... this can't be happening...

But there is more, these things I found out later:

My Boyfriend had an account at Spinit.com (I didn't know that back than and I for sure did not know that it was owned by the same company), he self excluded at Spinit.

After I tried complaining at the MGA I heard about this because there is nothing in the email from Sloty about that. This is basicly what the MGA told me:

Further to the below case, please be informed that we have received information from the representative of Genesis Global Limited (sloty.com) who have informed the MGA that one of the accounts held from the same IP, home address was self-excluded for gambling issues. The other account also used the same Skrill account of the self-excluded account.

I asked him about it and he said he wanted to shut down his account over there and the only way to do so is to self exclude. And as I said before we share the skrill account but let me be clear we do not share casino accounts! I believe Sloty was not even online yet during his self exclusing. When it was Moneybookers we where not allowed to request two cards on the same adress.

But if this was the case why was I able to create my account, withdrawl, and deposit before? Why was this matter not beeing adressed during all document approval times?

Please note that you have breached their Terms and Conditions specifically Term 12.1.1 - Sharing account credentials or joint use with other players or entities and Colluding with other third parties; and also Term 8.5 - In relation to deposits and withdrawals of funds into and from your Member Account, you shall only use such credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and lawfully belong to you.

I did let support know that I used a Skrill account that was not on my name and it was ok I have that in writing obvious. And the relevant departments approved it also multiple times.

I know what I find of this matter and what my opinion is and all, but I am more curious in the opinions of all other forum members.

And than there is this T&C are like contracts, you agree you are bound by them. But if both parties don't act on them it becomes voidable:

contract can become voidable under the following circumstances:

· A party was coerced or threatened into signing the agreement
· A party was under undue influence (one party is able to dominate the will of another)
· A party is not of sound mind or mentally competent (minor or mentally ill)
· The terms of the contract were breached
· Mutual mistakes on behalf of both parties
· The contract is fraudulent (omitting or falsifying facts or information, or the intention to not carry out the promise in the contract)
· Misrepresentation occurs (a false statement of fact)

So is Sloty handeling this in a fair way? Please just give me your honest oppinion


*********************************************************************************
Disclaimer lol
I might be missing something that is not in here if that is the case I couldn't add it because I am not aware of it. I also don't add any further proof, the things I wrote in here are the truth and I have the proof of that.
I also didn't name anybody in here and this is just a respectfull way to find opinions of others.
*********************************************************************************

Other small questions from me:
Do you know on which casinos your partner plays?
Do you share your money with your partner?

If not check the terms

 

[Lincolnuk]

Couple of big points to make and im affraid there is no chance of this been over turned but there are to parties at fault.

1. Casino really need to get there CS trained

But the biggest of all and you will find this at 99% of honest casino's. Never ever deposit using someone else account or card its a red flag for fraud straight despite address links etc. If the casino accepted this at first then they need to be sorted aswel.

As for your other questions both me and my partner play but we have a black book with everything written in to avoid multiple accounts etc.
As for money we share from a joint account but both have our own cards, My partner as a paypal and a Nettella acount that i never use and TBH if i wanted to there easy to open yourself

 

[Tirilej]

You should never use someone elses accounts for payments. Sometimes it's possible to make a deal with a casino if they know it before and both your names is in the account.

They should of course have denied the verification already the first time, but you would probably been allowed to play on if you had been a low roller not winning that huge. It's a bad casino group in my eyes, but when you win big they always do more checks no matter where you play.

The fact that he was selfexcluded is unfortunately a valid reason for not paying since it was his skrill account.

A hard lesson to learn and from now on you will read the rules and get your own way of funding your casino accounts.

I would be devastated too but in the end you didn't lose anything, you just didn't get your winnings paid.

 

[RichyJ75]

My personal, non-professional view is that the casino should pay out the winnings and then close the account.

If the account was verified, documents checked and approved and the bet accepted, then I believe the casino should have a liability to pay out if there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt that you were permitted to use the Skrill account. The account should then be closed due to discrepancies arising AFTER this win.

May be worthwhile checking the wording on the Gambling Act 2005 which is applicable for bets prior to 1st Feb 2018.

I am no professional in evaluating the situation, but go by old school methods of betting - the wager is placed, either accepted or declined, then the payout is paid if accepted and the gambler won. End of.

Too many rules, regulations, terms and conditions in this day and age!

 

[dusky]

The key issue for me in all of this and with other casinos is would they have put this in place had you lost, of course not.

You have left yourself wide open by sharing a Skrill account though, why would you do that when you can open one yourself. Whether you are legit or not, that screams against many casino's policies and I don't think you would have a leg to stand on I'm afraid.

 

[dunover]

I disagree - no casino can be seen to be soft on playing players who gamble with payment accounts of others, permission or not. IMO you're lucky you paid what they did give you before spotting it when your w/d's passed the KYC limits.

 

[4048]

It's not very uncommon to see people using other peoples cards/e-wallets, but back in the days I simply KYC'd both the player and the owner of the payment method/card as well as getting a signed confirmation that using said method for the amounts used were OK (signed by the owner of said card/e-wallet ofc).

Reading this thread I'm thinking we might've been in the wrong, cause it's either that or people are just really against using other peoples cards/e-wallets even when it exists fairly simple solutions.

Phone verifications from both player and owner was also used, but in the end it always worked out after the account owner jumped through the extra hoops.

 

[brianmon]

It's not very uncommon to see people using other peoples cards/e-wallets, but back in the days I simply KYC'd both the player and the owner of the payment method/card as well as getting a signed confirmation that using said method for the amounts used were OK (signed by the owner of said card/e-wallet ofc).

Reading this thread I'm thinking we might've been in the wrong, cause it's either that or people are just really against using other peoples cards/e-wallets even when it exists fairly simple solutions.

Phone verifications from both player and owner was also used, but in the end it always worked out after the account owner jumped through the extra hoops.

It might be ok to do that before any deposits are made.

But what would happen if a player used someone else's card/e-wallet, without permission? Would the casino be made liable to reimburse the account owner?

plus, in a situation like this, IF I had used an account without permission, then won 10k, I'm sure I'd be able to come to some 'arrangement' with the account owner, in order for them give permission posthumously.

 

[4048]

It might be ok to do that before any deposits are made.

But what would happen if a player used someone else's card/e-wallet, without permission? Would the casino be made liable to reimburse the account owner?

plus, in a situation like this, IF I had used an account without permission, then won 10k, I'm sure I'd be able to come to some 'arrangement' with the account owner, in order for them give permission posthumously.

If the player couldn't get verification from the other person they couldn't withdraw, really. Withdrawals would return to the owner of the deposit method, even if that wasn't the owner of the account.

It wasn't our job as the casino to inform the owner of the card that the card was used, that was the account owners. And as far as I can remember we were never contacted by someone without an account but whos card was used, so I don't know what procedure would be taken in those cases.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The real problem here was that the casino allowed all this to happen, and it only became an issue when a LARGE win was had. Clearly the casino are using the rules as a convenience to avoid paying out such a big win, but didn't mind when the win was only €700. Further, the casinos also failed to properly run a self exclusion check despite TWO opportunities, the initial deposit, and the withdrawal for €700. Instead, they did the verification on the €700 withdrawal and said everything was OK.

The casino should be fined by the MGA for this regardless of whether or not the MGA tells them to pay up for the player.

If staff are telling players that it's OK to use someone else's card or Skrill, this is another thing they should be fined for.

If it's considered OK to "fine" a winning player the sum of their win for breaching terms, it's also OK to fine the casino for their own breaches of terms and regulations.

 

[maxd]

If the story is going to be told then it's important to not be overly selective with the facts.

Player 1 self-excludes and straight-forwardly admits to gambling problems, to being asked by their partner to stop, and wanting to never be let to play again. The casino complies.
Player 2 (apparently the partner) pops up, same address etc, similar play patterns, supposedly using Player 1's CC, and so on.

No responsible casino on the planet would allow Player 2 to continue because the chances are VERY HIGH that it's actually Player 1 continuing on after the self-exclusion. Not to mention the breach of Terms.

Player 2's winnings should be cancelled, deposits returned and account closed. My understanding is that this is what was done.

I ruled for the casino and would do so again. There's simply way too much indicating that it's Player 1 doing most if not all the gambling.

 

[Lincolnuk]

Player 1 self-excludes and straight-forwardly admits to gambling problems, to being asked by their partner to stop, and wanting to never be let to play again.
Player 2 (the partner) pops up, same address etc, similar play patterns, supposedly using Player 1's CC, and so on.

No responsible casino on the planet would allow Player 2 to continue because the chances are VERY HIGH that it's actually Player 1 continuing on after the self-exclusion. Not to mention the breach of Terms.

I ruled for the casino and would do so again. There's simply way too much indicating that it's Player 1 doing all the gambling.

Echo that

 

[Valerius]

she says genesis told her:

“We regret to inform you that after reviewing your account your winnings have been voided due to breaching our Terms and Conditions.

From the documents you have provided it clearly shows that the Skrill account used to fund your account is not in your name but belongs to a 3rd party.

This is a clear breach of our terms and conditions”

In my opinion it works also the other way around, they should never accept deposits from a third party, but they happily will. They should block paying from an account not registered on players name, but this genesis group is happy to receive those payments and don’t return them, even when their system says name does not correspond with paying method, but if you win with it they are happy to void them. It does not strike me as a fair chance of winning.

If they don’t pay her they should return every deposit made on third party accounts from every customer, what do you think about that?

Casino’s who are really good like slotsmillion block that immediately, but not this genesis group.

 

[alexking12k]

Years ago, when I had a pretty bad gambling problem, I also used my g/f's name to open accounts at casinos that I self excluded from so I have to side with Max's ruling on this one. While benefit of a doubt is usually in order, when it comes to gambling there are endless tricks that we addicts pull in order to keep playing even after we decided to stop. It sucks but that's the way this disease works.

 

[Arenda]

So I read all responces and would likt to awnser all of them, but will shorten the given awnsers.

Couple of big points to make and im affraid there is no chance of this been over turned but there are to parties at fault.

1. Casino really need to get there CS trained

Indeed CS totally gave me the wrong information time after time. I missed the T&C and was told it was ok so I had no reason to think otherwise.

You should never use someone elses accounts for payments. Sometimes it's possible to make a deal with a casino if they know it before and both your names is in the account.

It is unfair as long as you bring money to the casino it is not a problem at all, and when you decide to withdraw it is becomming an issue, I don't agree up on the fact that it was ok to forfeit the winnings I had, We should have worked out a real solution and not like this.

My personal, non-professional view is that the casino should pay out the winnings and then close the account.

Thanks Richy, I will check up on that gambling act you referred to. I also say we both made mistakes, so I think it would be fair in this case to only pay out 50% of the win. I should have been aware of the T&C but they should have never told me multiple times it was ok to do so.

The key issue for me in all of this and with other casinos is would they have put this in place had you lost, of course not.

I am not so sure that I don't have any leg to stand on, but I still have a few months to figure everything out.

I disagree - no casino can be seen to be soft on playing players who gamble with payment accounts of others, permission or not.

I specificly asked if it was ok, I never tried to hide any evidence so I don't think it is fair at all. I do play at some other casino's as well and have no problems between switching bank accounts. I even got it in writing now because this will not hapen a second time to me.

It's not very uncommon to see people using other peoples cards/e-wallets, but back in the days I simply KYC'd both the player and the owner of the payment method/card...

This is exactly what I do have at other casino's after this all happend, and I do have a written statement from an Sloty employee that tells me it is ok to use that skrill account.

It might be ok to do that before any deposits are made.

It is my boyfriend so why would I need to make some kind of agreement we add money to the account and play with the account.

The real problem here was that the casino allowed all this to happen, and it only became an issue when a LARGE win was had. Clearly the casino are using the rules as a convenience to avoid paying out such a big win, but didn't mind when the win was only €700. Further, the casinos also failed to properly run a self exclusion check despite TWO opportunities, the initial deposit, and the withdrawal for €700. Instead, they did the verification on the €700 withdrawal and said everything was OK.

The casino should be fined by the MGA for this regardless of whether or not the MGA tells them to pay up for the player.

If staff are telling players that it's OK to use someone else's card or Skrill, this is another thing they should be fined for.

If it's considered OK to "fine" a winning player the sum of their win for breaching terms, it's also OK to fine the casino for their own breaches of terms and regulations.

Thank you this is exactly what I think of it, but believe me I would be happy with 50% better with 100% although that would be something I could probably better forget since we both made mistakes.

If the story is going to be told then it's important to not be overly selective with the facts.

Thank you MaxD for clearing the points out that I was not aware of, it would be not possible for me to proof that I played during the win. Only if NetEnt would make a selfie when a large win is hit (would be a great option) Not all deposits are returned only the last deposit will be returned and if they should do that they need to refund the deposits on Spinit as well. I think we are both in the wrong on this matter please find this in google: what-makes-a-contract-invalid/ (lawdepot blog). I mean they say it is ok multiple times and than they change their minds. I did tell him once he should deposit less but I was not aware at which casino this was, I just saw 1K a week moving out of his bank acc. But still there is no way to proof it was me who did the gambling :-(

she says genesis told her:

Are you my brother? I share your oppinion.

Years ago, when I had a pretty bad gambling problem, I also used my g/f's name to open accounts at casinos that I self excluded from so I have to side with Max's ruling on this one. While benefit of a doubt is usually in order, when it comes to gambling there are endless tricks that we addicts pull in order to keep playing even after we decided to stop. It sucks but that's the way this disease works.

Alexking, you don't know me and you don't know my BF, we had a child I told him to spend a little less on gambling he makes arround 15K a month with internet, He/we can miss it but it was on the point where we went on holliday and bought a new house and got our son. I told him you should quit for a while GENISIS should probably check again and than they will see he just asked to self exclude because his GF asked as MaxD said. For a while was not really possible so he went back later and asked again and than he said he had an addiction get rid of the account.

The point here is that I was gambling and I have no way to proof that!
I got an ok written statement about the deposit method.
Long story short we both made mistakes and we both should feel it, although they blame me for 100% and tell me I can fuck off basicly.

And if you are sick than you should never gamble again because addicts should never play again.

*********************************************************

Thanks all for your oppinions I do think some are very interesting and usefull, also I know now that Genises thinks my BF gambled which is not the case. I hope genisis is reading this topic as well and want to contact me to find a better solution because this is kind of a strange case. If not I think I will visit the office in a few months because it was really me who gambled perhaps I can convice them f2f. I also believe there wil be a gambling summit in the netherlands where I can maybe meet them, it is a shame how some people assume things that are in fact totally different.

 

[brianmon]

It is my boyfriend so why would I need to make some kind of agreement we add money to the account and play with the account.

I was referring to making an agreement with the CASINO - Before depositing from someone else's account

 

[Arenda]

I was referring to making an agreement with the CASINO - Before depositing from someone else's account

I did not get that the first time thanks for the clarification, and I should have done that perhaps. You know the case and it is what it is at this time.

 

[Tirilej]

What does not add up in this story is that the boyfriend played earlier because he was the gambler. Girlfriend tell him to stop for a while because they need the money. He even selfexclude to get rid of the account.

Now suddenly the girlfriend starts to play instead, using his wallet, and the same playing pattern

There is no way that I would believe that you're telling the truth, and I doubt you will ever get this money no matter how hard you try.

Thanks Max for clearing that up!

 

[Arenda]

I have proof of me funding the skrill account on the 19th of december. I also used ideal a dutch method to deposit from my own bank acc. All methods where approved by multiple staff members and this is not something that happend in the same month. It is also not something that happend at the same casino.

He excluded before sloty even was an online casino.

And if you go to spinit sloty cruise or vegas... it is not clear they are connected. So I did not know he excluded at one of these casinos.

 

[maxd]

So I read all responces and would likt to awnser all of them...

It takes you a week (ish) to reply? That alone is used as a fraud flag at many casinos. I remain stridently unconvinced.
[My mistake, several days, not a week]

Also, deleted the poll. Some people were voting multiple times on what essentially should have been a "choose one" poll. Skewed results = meaningless results = garbage.

 

[Arenda]

Because i didnt reply during the weekend, sorry for that strange way of thinking in my oppinion. No problem for deleting the poll I thought it would have been restricted to accounts and ip’s. I have asked for oppinions of everyone and I know you are not convinced you made that more than clear to me.

I created this topic to dicus, warn and learn. And i did not open this topic so you could maybe change your mind.

Thanks again for clearing everything up although it was more than clear to me.

 

[alexking12k]

The real problem here was that the casino allowed all this to happen, and it only became an issue when a LARGE win was had. Clearly the casino are using the rules as a convenience to avoid paying out such a big win, but didn't mind when the win was only €700. Further, the casinos also failed to properly run a self exclusion check despite TWO opportunities, the initial deposit, and the withdrawal for €700. Instead, they did the verification on the €700 withdrawal and said everything was OK.

The casino should be fined by the MGA for this regardless of whether or not the MGA tells them to pay up for the player.

If staff are telling players that it's OK to use someone else's card or Skrill, this is another thing they should be fined for.

If it's considered OK to "fine" a winning player the sum of their win for breaching terms, it's also OK to fine the casino for their own breaches of terms and regulations.

If I had a dollar for every time a casino CS rep told me one thing and then another rep of the same casino, or even a manager, said that the first CS rep was wrong, I'd have a whole lot of dollars. Incompetence of online casino CS reps is an all too common annoyance.

 

[miksaxxx]

hmm.

Strange question.

If there is household 2 persons.

player 1 and non-player 2

.

player 1 make email to name of player 2 and
put every same details. And also use "non- player 2 " credit card with out permission.

non-player notice it after 1 year. If he dont watch every card.
What will non-player can do ?. Chargeback casino and police report.

Becouse email , adress and every details can person 1 have .

Casino can allways void bets , but do they return those to person that dont have never played or maked account.

 

[Arenda]

hmm.

Strange question.

If there is household 2 persons.

player 1 and a player that does not want to play or not know about it named as player 2

.

player 1 make email on the name of player 2 and
put all the details of player 2. And also use "player 2 " credit card without permission.

player 2 notice it after 1 year. If he dont watch every card.
What can non-player do? Chargeback casino and police report.

Becouse email, adress and every details can person 1 have .

Casino can allways void bets, but do they return those to person that dont have never played or maked account.

I changed your message in the qoute because it was hard to understand.

In this case you can go to the police and file a report to your partner or the one who used your credentials, you can chargeback but it might be hard since some transactions took place 1 year ago. You can also get in touch with the casino and ask them to return these deposits but if they do it is off good will and not because they need to. I think they will need to see proof of the police report. To be more exact the other person in the household stole your money and that person is the one who you should get the money from, it is the same as that person would get a loan from the bank on your name and spends all of it. You can not track back to where the money was spend so the person who caused it is accountable.

But I might be so off again, because I am not a real reliable/trustworthy source if you read some responces on this topic.

 

[colinsunderland]

If the story is going to be told then it's important to not be overly selective with the facts.

Player 1 self-excludes and straight-forwardly admits to gambling problems, to being asked by their partner to stop, and wanting to never be let to play again. The casino complies.
Player 2 (apparently the partner) pops up, same address etc, similar play patterns, supposedly using Player 1's CC, and so on.

No responsible casino on the planet would allow Player 2 to continue because the chances are VERY HIGH that it's actually Player 1 continuing on after the self-exclusion. Not to mention the breach of Terms.

Player 2's winnings should be cancelled, deposits returned and account closed. My understanding is that this is what was done.

I ruled for the casino and would do so again. There's simply way too much indicating that it's Player 1 doing most if not all the gambling.

As much as I agree with that, if they already verified the skrill account, processed a withdrawal AND told her she could use her boyfriends Skrill account, then to only deny winnings once a large amount was won, is pretty close to theft to me.

If they had refused the first withdrawal I would think fair enough. Surely they must have done the SE checks at that point, and then allowed the 'self excluded' player/girlfriend to keep playing even though they were aware of the situation?