how slots work, what do you guys think?

[hippo925]

after doing a little research and talking to some people, i found out some interesting things about how a slot machine might work. i apologize for the long post, but i find it to be an interesting theory.

basically, it is apparently impossible to have a true random number generator, as many of you know. slots work with a "pseudo" random number generator that uses an algorithym that uses a "seed" and adds numbers to that seed to generate different outcomes. apparently, the RNG calculates and rotates through these numbers continuously until the spin button is pressed.

it is possible that the algorythms used allow each "number" to be processed ONLY once and the presentation to the player is only a representation for enjoyment value.

as an example, think of a $1 slot that has 100 possible numbers with only 5 numbers representing "wins."

the number 1 = the jackpot value of $50
the number 2 = line win of $5
the number 3 = line win of $10
the number 4 = bonus spins (3 free spins)
the number 5 = bonus spins (3 free spins)
the numbers 6-100 are blanks, near misses, etc.

when a bonus is hit, a separate calculation is used that that consists of 6 possible numbers for only the bonus (that also can be used only once)
represented by:

spin 1 = blank
spin 2 = blank
spin 3 = blank
spin 4 = $25
spin 5 = $5
spin 6 = $3

in other words, you can get a bonus and hit the first three possbile combinations and win $0, or hit the last three and win $33 or any combination of the six possibilities, but each spin can ONLY be hit once.

after one OR more players have completed the cycle of 100 spins, the payback is 98%.... guaranteed.

in this case, you CANNOT hit a jackpot "back to back" and it is very obvious that every spin is NOT random and likely to occur because if someone else hit the jackpot, you will not....in THIS cycle.

how to make this slot more "random?" increase the cycles. add another 9 sets of these 100 spin cycles and now 10 people can hit the jackpot and 20 bonuses are now possible. you can now hit a jackpot "back to back" and the payback is still 98%.

what if you increase it 100000000 more cycles, than it becomes the closest you can get to random.

so why does a slot sometimes not appear to be random? fewer cycles which lowers the variance for the casino for any period of time. (this can avoid too many jackpots clumped together with more consistent revenue.)

also, i learned that ANYTHING is programmable and possible. interruptions to the cycles, re-directions, etc..... you name it, it is possible.

i thought this was an interesting theory and i know some of you are programmers and have much better insight to share.

in summary: apparently slots CAN be very CLOSE to random, but not the way most people think. also, table games like blackjack can programmed in similar ways...but i don't know if they are. i love slots and this theory might explain some things i've noticed. a slot that relies on these type of mechanics is, for all intesive purposes, pretty random unless it is programmed to do otherwise.

ps... a personal thanks to nashvegas. i just find this topic extremely exciting and garry's posts started my interest in it.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

after doing a little research and talking to some people, i found out some interesting things about how a slot machine might work. i apologize for the long post, but i find it to be an interesting theory.

From what I understand, your theory is that slots are programmed to go through a cycle of outcomes in sequential order. You also say: "interruptions to the cycles, re-directions, etc" can occur. Rephrasing, you state that as the cycle grows in length, the appearance of being random can increase as well.

I have programmed a slot machine for an online company, and I can say most definitely this is not how this slot worked.

The basic mathematics of a slot machine is computed via a spread sheet and a simulation of the slot. The analysis of slots via a spread sheet involve computing each outcome possible, and its result. This is how the house-edge is computed for a slot and it is a lot of work. The simulation program verifies the mathematics by playing millions of spins of the slot as a human might play given enough time.

In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise.

There are most certainly rigged slots in the world, but they are produced by rogue companies, or are the result of incompetent programming. There are also what is known as "class 2" slots which sound a bit more like what you may be talking about. For the difference between class 2 and class 3, see Wikipedia, which I have quoted in part:

Class II game characteristics:
The player is playing against other players and competing for a common prize.
There is certain to be a winner in each game. The game continues until there is a winner.
In a given set there are a certain number of wins and loses. Once a certain combination has happened it cannot happen again until a new batch is initiated. This is most obvious in scratch card games that come in a pack. Once a card has been pulled those winning combinations cannot occur again until a new pack of cards is installed. One game is dependent on previous games.
The player must be an active participant. They must recognize events as they occur and must recognize when they have won and announce their winning. Bingo is an excellent example here.
All players play from the same set of numbers as they are announced.

Class III game characteristics
The player is playing against the house.
There is a very real possibility that the player may lose the game.
Each game is independent of previous games. Any possible outcome can occur in any game.
Wins are announced automatically.

I hope this helps,

--Eliot

 

[LaurieJim]

i still like to think its luck, i have hit two r/j in one day same casino same game i have also been at a b/m in tunica and hit all triple diamonds on a slot and when the casino host paid me they had me spin off again and i hit one wheel of fortune and two triple diamonds which is also the same as hitting three diamonds ....................why do they have you spin again when they pay you out and watch? ive always wondered about that

 

[Rusty]

In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise.

Verified in what way?

It is obvious that slots do not operate in the way which you suggest, which is a shame as that is exactly how an online slot should operate.

How is it obvious?

Play any bonus slot and when a dry spell is becoming apparent which happens almost always after a winning streak note how often the Wild and/or bonus/scatter symbols appear.
There will be a significant if not huge statistical discrepancy between the expected and actual frequency of how often they appear.

Aslo anybody who plays slots regularly will know just how hard it is to find the third bonus triggering symbol when the first Two appear on the first Two reels.

For examples of Two different slots using Two types of software try these;

Halloweenies : MG
Ronan : RTG

These are Two of the best examples.

Halloweenies; you will notice quite quickly how often the Two scatters appear on the Fourth and Fifth reels yet when the Scatters appear on the first and Second reels they very rarely appear to award the free spins.
In other words the scatters appear an irregular amount of times on either the First Two or last Two reels.
A statistical anomaly here will be that you will win the Bonus round more often when not hitting both the first Two scatters than when you do.

Ronan;You will notice a generally expected frequency of the Scatter/Wild symbol until you have either hit the free spins with retriggers or hit a winning streak.
After this you will notice that the scatter/Wild symbols especially on the first reel appear extremely infrequently.
(Maybe once or Twice in 100 to 200 spins!)

Another obvious tell tale sign that these slots are not random in the sense you describe is how streaky they are.
Oh look no feature for 800 spins and then Five retriggers, fancy that.
These are patterns not isolated incidents.

I could give you a run down on just about every MG and RTG slot and predict their behaviour depending on past results.
Either I am psychic or these slots are not completely random?

Hippo you are right about the RNG and that there is no such thing as a computer being able to generate a completely random number but with a decent RNG the effect is negligible.
I program my own 5 line bonus slots (to 95% for comparison) and the difference is evident.
The payout of some online slots may well be 95% but 95% of what?
95% expected return or 95% of past losses?
Enjoy them for what they are but do not pretend they are completely random.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

@ Laurie Et Al--------->I know very little about slots (except how to calculate payout ratios),know enough to be dangerous about BJ and have a limited knowledge of a few other table games. That said, for a B&M, unless you can count cards or use a few of the other legal ways to gain an advantage on table games to shift the house advantage or expectation to the player, then even for the most skilled players (not advantage players) overcoming the house advantage or expectation is pure luck a.k.a. as being on the positive side of standard deviation/variance. Of course, there is always the possibilty the player or house could be cheating but a rare occurence in this day and time............as for onlines who knows, I do not but my perception is that online BJ is quite different from B&M (no idea about slots) and I march on but may be getting closer.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Hippo,
See your PM's,,,sorry for the delay

 

[hippo925]

thank you eliot, it is REALLY nice to have an expert around to help clarify things! and i hope you don't mind that i pick your brain.

i knew it would be hard for me to explain in a single post, so i need to clarify and expand on some things as well. this theory came about after talking to someone in the programming and computer field in the aerospace industry (he has no slot knowledge, by the way) and reading up extensively on the topic. essentially, i asked a bunch of questions on how i could theoretically make a slot machine to GUARANTEE a payout percentage and income and be as close to random as possible. virtually every question i asked in the form of "is it possible to ....." was a "yes, of course."

if i am assuming correctly, Eliot was essentially talking about PAR sheets. that the layout of the reels determine the payout over millions of spins dependent on a RNG result giving a "random" result.

"In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise." (Eliot)

here is the problem... the Week's box.

"So far, the computer-assisted slot fraud has involved a device that simulates the random number generators at the heart of every slot machine. The device finds the pattern in the slot machine's computer and predicts the payout. The computer is called a Weeks Box, after Leo Weeks, an inventor who was charged with trying to use the machine at a Lake Tahoe casino.

In January, the New Jersey State Police charged a technician from Nevada's gaming commission with putting his knowledge of the Weeks Box to work in New Jersey. Detective Pflaumer said the technician, Ronald Harris, had copied the technology from Mr. Weeks's device after it was seized in Nevada. He said Mr. Harris had brought a copy of the computer to Atlantic City. Mr. Harris and an accomplice used the machine to win a $100,000 keno jackpot, he said, an unusually large payout. " (New York Times, 1995)

Now... if every spin is random there should be NO way to predict an outcome or pattern...period. the Week's box determined and predicted patterns which means outcomes were linked and affected eachother....1..3..5..3..2..etc.

this pattern cannot get to 2 unless 1,3,5,3 happens first. follow me?

here's something else (i guess this guy is some gaming expert in Canada?), he is talking about pokies (video slots) and being interviewed:

"Terry Lane: Now getting back to some of the myths, just before we finish. There is this belief amongst gamblers, that if they stay at one machine for long enough, they must eventually get a payout. But if the machines are random, it’s possible that some individual machines never pay out.

Roger Horbay: No, they have a confidence index that’s calculated, so they actually do have to pay out."

Terry Lane: Now tell us about the machines themselves. First of all, are they truly random? That is, are the odds always the same for every single press of the button?

Roger Horbay: That’s hard to determine. It depends on the state regulations, the provincial regulations, whatever regulatory structures are in place around how the machine must work. Overall, the machines I can say generally are random. But the outcome sequences and what you see and what you experience does not feel random to most players.(the national interest, 2005)

any thoughts? by the way, this is all just a curiosity thing for me. i ain't gonna stop playing slots for any reason.... they're too fun!!!

ps... thanks AGAIN garry!!!

 

[hippo925]

i still like to think its luck, i have hit two r/j in one day same casino same game i have also been at a b/m in tunica and hit all triple diamonds on a slot and when the casino host paid me they had me spin off again and i hit one wheel of fortune and two triple diamonds which is also the same as hitting three diamonds ....................why do they have you spin again when they pay you out and watch? ive always wondered about that

i always thought it was because they didn't want a machine showing a previous jackpot because that deters so many people from playing it. so they have you spin one more time to change the reels.... anyway, that's what i always thought.

 

[LaurieJim]

i always thought it was because they didn't want a machine showing a previous jackpot because that deters so many people from playing it. so they have you spin one more time to change the reels.... anyway, that's what i always thought.

..if i ever get lucky in tunica again ill ask why they do that, but your answer could be right, thanks hippo.........................................laurie

 

[mysticjoz]

Lauriejim.. I hit a jackpot at Foxwoods many years back.. and the host told me that it was "to clear the reels" (like Hippo said).. it deters players.
If someone walks by and sees a jackpot screen.. they're most definately not going to stop and play that machine. I know I wouldn't.

 

[RobWin]

Mr. Jacobson Question ?

Mr. Jacobson, based on all of your knowledge regarding slot machines and your anology written above, I have a simple question for you:

Presuming you're a gambler, Would you spend money on playing the slot machines ?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Mr. Jacobson, based on all of your knowledge regarding slot machines and your anology written above, I have a simple question for you:

Presuming you're a gambler, Would you spend money on playing the slot machines ?

RW, check out some reviews or excerpts (via the web) on his book "The Blackjack Zone" published in 2005 iirc (great book btw) and I bet we can both guess correctly but I really do not know what Eliot's answer will be ftr.......I bought a bunch a copies over 2 years ago for gifts before I knew Eliot and I think I have a few left so if anybody wants a free gift PM me and I will send you one.....Sorry Eliot, you prolly prefer they buy it J/K!!!!

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Mr. Jacobson, based on all of your knowledge regarding slot machines and your anology written above, I have a simple question for you:

Presuming you're a gambler, Would you spend money on playing the slot machines ?

I do not know what a gambler would do. I cannot presume to be a gambler and know what that is like. I have never been a gambler and I have never made a wager without knowing I either had the edge, or having some other purpose for making the wager -- like being paid for secret shopping at casinos, which I have done many times.

I opened a casino in the garage of my house at age 13 (using "toy" gambling devices given to me by my mother for Christmas). I gave a report to my math class in 8-th grade about slot machines. I am just too far on the other side to be able to answer this hypothetical.

That said, today I was at a casino -- I was paid to play a new casino game I helped develop (Three Card Blackjack) and to report back to the game developer. Eight bleary hours later, eyes red, lungs full of second hand smoke, I write this from my hotel room outside of Palm Springs, CA.

Hopefully, I'll be able to contribute more to this next week. There are some very subtle points being raised by hippo.

Best to all.

Eliot

 

[hippo925]

Palm springs!!! i've been to every casino out there Hope they are not overworking you. Don't forget to take a break and go on the tram up the mountain, wonderful views!

eliot, thanks again for your participation and i look forward to your insight. this thread is pretty meaningless without you here .

As an aside, i really think that (unless software is intentionally designed to "cheat,") no matter how a slot is designed, it is pretty much random to all of us since a game will not discriminate between different players. like i said before, i just find this topic really interesting. i love slots and will continue to play them for the enjoyment value but it's nice to learn more about them.

 

[brianzz]

why do they have you spin again when they pay you out and watch? ive always wondered about that

It's so someone else can't walk up and say they spun and hit that same pay, also, in some jurisdictions it's required by law for the attendant to witness the jackpot or handpay amount being cleared from the machine.

If you ever wondered what the RNG inside the machine gets to look at, here is it. From a 97% Five Times Pay machine:
The machine will randomly select each reel from each number.. eg. 42 42 44 = Jackpot

Line # 1 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 2 3B ~~ ~~
Line # 3 3B 3B 3B
Line # 4 3B 3B 3B
Line # 5 3B 3B 3B
Line # 6 3B 3B ~~
Line # 7 3B ~~ ~~
Line # 8 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 9 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 10 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 11 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 12 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 13 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 14 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 15 ~~ R7 ~~
Line # 16 ~~ R7 R7
Line # 17 R7 R7 R7
Line # 18 R7 R7 R7
Line # 19 R7 ~~ ~~
Line # 20 R7 ~~ ~~
Line # 21 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 22 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 23 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 24 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 25 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 26 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 27 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 28 1B ~~ 1B
Line # 29 1B 1B 1B
Line # 30 1B 1B 1B
Line # 31 ~~ 1B 1B
Line # 32 ~~ ~~ 1B
Line # 33 2B 2B ~~
Line # 34 2B 2B ~~
Line # 35 2B 2B 2B
Line # 36 2B 2B 2B
Line # 37 ~~ ~~ 2B
Line # 38 ~~ ~~ 2B
Line # 39 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 40 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 41 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 42 FS FS ~~
Line # 43 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 44 ~~ ~~ FS
Line # 45 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 46 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 47 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 48 1B 1B ~~
Line # 49 1B 1B ~~
Line # 50 1B 1B 1B
Line # 51 1B 1B 1B
Line # 52 ~~ ~~ 1B
Line # 53 ~~ ~~ 1B
Line # 54 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 55 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 56 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 57 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 58 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 59 7B 7B ~~
Line # 60 7B 7B ~~
Line # 61 7B 7B 7B
Line # 62 7B 7B 7B
Line # 63 7B 7B 7B
Line # 64 ~~ ~~ 7B
Line # 65 ~~ ~~ 7
Line # 66 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 67 ~~ ~~ ~~
Line # 68 ~~ 3B ~~
Line # 69 ~~ 3B ~~
Line # 70 ~~ 3B ~~
Line # 71 3B 3B ~~
Line # 72 3B ~~ ~~
Line # 73 3B ~~ ~~
Line # 74 3B CH 3B
Line # 75 ~~ CH 3B
Line # 76 ~~ CH 3B
Line # 77 CH ~~ ~~
Line # 78 CH ~~ ~~
Line # 79 CH 2B ~~
Line # 80 CH 2B CH
Line # 81 ~~ 2B CH
Line # 82 2B 2B CH
Line # 83 2B 2B ~~
Line # 84 2B 2B 2B
Line # 85 2B 2B 2B
Line # 86 ~~ ~~ 2B
Line # 87 1B 1B 2B
Line # 88 1B 1B ~~
Line # 89 1B 1B 1B
Line # 90 1B 1B 1B

 

[BingoT]

Lauriejim.. I hit a jackpot at Foxwoods many years back.. and the host told me that it was "to clear the reels" (like Hippo said).. it deters players.
If someone walks by and sees a jackpot screen.. they're most definately not going to stop and play that machine. I know I wouldn't.

Talk about Foxwoods I hit a little nice one the other day.
On the Double Dollar 5 cent slot with 18 in I got the.DD-DD-DD and all the 7's on the bonus round.And the bad thing is I bring the camera with me and I wanted to take a pic of it but it was on the free spin thing

 

[lots0]

...like being paid for secret shopping at casinos, which I have done many times.

My dream job.... Where do I apply?

 

[lojo]

Here's how slots are supposed to work:

• Put in a dollar
• Win a car
• Put in a another dollar
• Win another car

Ever see those keebler elf commercials... the little guys inside the tree making cookies? That's not quite how it works... but there are little guys in the slot machines making pretty pictures for the screen and packing suitcases full of cash...

• Put in a dollar
• See a pretty picture
• Put in another dollar
• See another pretty picture

There's a table in the corner of the machine where some of the grisslier looking elf are playing a game of dice... whenever someone rolls a 4-5-6 combination they shove a little bit of cash back at ya. When some one gets 5 trip snake-eyes in a row, they shove a whole suitcase of it back and push buttons and pull handles and make all kinds of lights flash and sounds happen to hypnotise the other suckers in the casino (or reading the winning screenshot thread) into thinking it could happen to them.

There's a math formula for this but I don't need to know what it is... it's like haggis, I don't really want to know whats in it.

 

[steinhaug]

in this case, you CANNOT hit a jackpot "back to back" and it is very obvious that every spin is NOT random and likely to occur because if someone else hit the jackpot, you will not....in THIS cycle.

Well, what I can confirm is this. In norway we had some slots some years ago that were super popular - the admiral. Theese were originally casino slots that were reconfigured to fit norwegian laws.

Since being a heavy player I naturally had alot of conversations with the people from the slot companies which served the machines. I also know the owner of one of the gambling halls here in Kristiansand. What is without any doubt a fact is that theese machines operated with cycles.

Also, they could tell me the % which the slot ate money on gambes. Like, 60% was supposed to be saved for low gambles, 20% for medium and %20 for high gambles. Just as with my gamble exercise on 3Dice this is very obvious.

I believe the cycle, if I call correctly, for the Admiral machines was 1 million spins. After this it restarted.

Within the cycle it's random, or should I say "random". This also will be a kick in the but for most people in this forum, but check it out. The Admiral slot, originally a casino slot - has cycles and therefore not random (except in the cycle). Atleast you get some treats for knowing people in the business!

Hence - why I do not belive MG or any other casino is truly random either!

 

[steinhaug]

Also, I must add. One of the companies here in town made alot of headlines in the local press here. What they did was the following.

They had slots in thir office, sat wagering wagering wagering until they got the jackpot, then they put the slots out again for others to play... Oh they made money this way, since the machines ate huge money back! They also got some bad press out of it since this man wasn't excactly a nice guy.

They could easily do this, since they was informed about the cycles and such from their slot, and since two jackpots do not occure within the same cycle.

Another one, tihs is funny! Have you ever heard of the times the machines have a bug which can be manipulated? So that you get a sure win all the time, happends on new slots! I myself have emptied slots this way.

But here is the kicker - when you have done this, have you ever played on the slot afterwards not using the trick? Loooser, you will not win shit!

I wonder why!

Again, knowing all this - hence my belief on online slots. Since noone else is fair, I doubt the online ones are. What count's in the end is the payout % - this is the numbers being served to the public and this is what is looked at as fair play! Aslong as you get that % you should smile and be happy - it's all good.

 

[hippo925]

very interesting kimss! i think eliot will be better able to comment on this.

but here's an important point: IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play? i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me, though i don't think i have seen obvious signs of that in all the years i've played slots.

 

[lojo]

very interesting kimss! i think eliot will be better able to comment on this.

but here's an important point: IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play? i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me, though i don't think i have seen obvious signs of that in all the years i've played slots.

Agreed. If the end result is 95% collusion would be the viable reason to not run a true 'random' slot.(ringers who work for the casino knowing a trick and collecting the big wins, laundering the money back) or slimy promotions (give new players better chances, target markets, etc. and other reasons in your last paragraph)


Here's a link to pdf from ITG go to page 35, Hippo. Great read Old / Expired Link

 

[Mousey]

I'm not a math-head :notworthy and there's really no reason I should even open my mouth here, but you know me....

From what I remember about Weeks and the computer he used to figure the win numbers for the Keno game... Random numbers are generated from a beginning 'seed' ... if you can figure out the 'seed', you can come pretty darn close to determining the final group of numbers or spin or whatever. The Keno game was 'faulty' in that the seed was too easily determined. Today, there are more esoteric and weird things that 'seeds' are based on and therefore near impossible to crack.

And Kimss... those games w/cycles sound like 'fruities' to me.

And those damn ClassII slots (based on bingo) are a crock of shite and I don't think they should even be legal as they give people the illusion that they're playing a slot machine -- or even more outrageous -- Video Poker. Deception, pure and simple -- and state sanctioned, at that. grrrrr....

OK... We return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[NASHVEGAS]

very interesting kimss! i think eliot will be better able to comment on this.

but here's an important point: IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play? i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me, though i don't think i have seen obvious signs of that in all the years i've played slots.

My biggest concern with all online software platforms (not slots which are a different animal to me) and I also believe the word you may be looking for Hippo is "correlated" or simply the old simple programming language IF...,THEN.....,I have verified with a software engineer (he claims) for online casinos that it would be very simple to do despite those that claim to the contrary (those with a vested interest in the industry for the most part). ....My final conclusion, all serious play at B & M's!

 

[GaryWatson]

On many live machines, the jackpot often lands soon after the first. play it for a fiver, if it doesnt pay again, walk away.

 

[hippo925]

My biggest concern with all online software platforms (not slots which are a different animal to me) and I also believe the word you may be looking for Hippo is "correlated" or simply the old simple programming language IF...,THEN.....,I have verified with a software engineer (he claims) for online casinos that it would be very simple to do despite those that claim to the contrary (those with a vested interest in the industry for the most part). ....My final conclusion, all serious play at B & M's!

yes nash, i was told the same thing that basically anything is possible to program within a set parameter.

lojo, the igt article is really interesting. i actually read that before, but for some reason i didn't recognize the info on the bonuses... i must have missed it before. thanks!

and mousey, trust me, i'm no math genius either, lol. the week's box is interesting to me because, remember, Week designed it for slot machines! it was used for keno later, but doesn't that mean it worked for slots too?

the confusing part for me is this: let's say i knew the seed, the algorythm, everything. how do i (or a computer in my pocket) press the button at the exact miliisecond if the RNG is continously calculating. in the keno fraud, they predicted the numbers from previous results, but if the RNG is spinning through the numbers lightning fast, how would it matter?

in the series 4-3-2-1-7-8.... even if i KNOW 7 (a jackpot) comes after 1, how do i press the button at 7 if the RNG is going through these numbers a thousand times a second?

anyone following me? i haven't been drinking

 

[lojo]

You don't/can't, etc. It takes about a year for the 'cycle' to complete, can be reseeded at any time, and creates over 100 combinations per second! I can look for the particulars at casinocitytimes if you'd like... I should have the link archived anyway.

edit: I'm only referring to B&M's there isn't really any info available, that I know of, for online processes. You could get 'own your own casino' crack it, and publish it open source

 

[Mousey]

oopsy... two, two, two posts in one! ....

 

[Mousey]

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, re: Harris, Weeks, keno, slots, etc. If nothing else, it might provide more ideas for further googling.

And I agree w/Lojo... I really have no idea whether anything that applies to B&M games has even the slightest relation to online casino software.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

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, re: Harris, Weeks, keno, slots, etc. If nothing else, it might provide more ideas for further googling.

And I agree w/Lojo... I really have no idea whether anything that applies to B&M games has even the slightest relation to online casino software.

Unless you happen to be be playing a continuous shuffle machine of B&M BJ (and most casinos tried to pull that-CSM'S-off on a few tables and realized it was not going to fly), then you have to know the online "random shuffle" of BJ does not apply at a B&M. (Assuming Mousey you were speaking of all games and not just slots,ftr)

 

[bb28]

This thread has been an interesting read......indeed.

 

[Mousey]

Unless you happen to be be playing a continuous shuffle machine of B&M BJ (and most casinos tried to pull that-CSM'S-off on a few tables and realized it was not going to fly), then you have to know the online "random shuffle" of BJ does not apply at a B&M. (Assuming Mousey you were speaking of all games and not just slots,ftr)

Sorry, I should have clarified... I was referring to B&M games that have RNG vs. the same type online games (slots, VP, etc. -- in other words, machines). BJ (and other card games) is a totally different animal as a computer RNG should have nothing to do with B&M card shuffler.

FTR... Hubby got the 'creeps' whenever he (rarely) played BJ online. He won't touch it anymore. No, we have no 'proof'. We only know it just doesn't play like the same game.

And I am NOT saying online BJ is rigged, I'm only saying it just doesn't feel right to me. Rather like showering w/my socks on, the end result may be acceptably the same, but getting there just doesn't feel right.

 

[lojo]

I get the distinct 'feeling' when playing online card games that it creates a 'result' that is statistically random, not that it is a process that produces random results. Does that make sense? Because I would stake my gut, not my mind on this question. It just doesn't feel 'right'.

 

[peteyweestro]

you really notice how unrandom the numbers seem to be sometimes when playing one of my fav games on mg...poker pursuit

 

[steinhaug]

but here's an important point: IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play? i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

True... Unless... Say the system is aware of good and bad portions of the cycle. Say after a win you will be served bad portions of the cycle until you lost your way back to 90% payout - then are served a good portion again? This is my MG theory. Anyways.

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me, though i don't think i have seen obvious signs of that in all the years i've played slots.

It's quite known that lowest bet size will give many more lower wins - while max bet will give fewer low wins but higher ones. Several online sites, and documentaries on casinoes and sllots confirms this. (Not to say own gameplay) This has been discussed several times before aswell.

I get the distinct 'feeling' when playing online card games that it creates a 'result' that is statistically random, not that it is a process that produces random results. Does that make sense? Because I would stake my gut, not my mind on this question. It just doesn't feel 'right'.

You don't say... I think the MG BJ is a slot like everything else, except that the spin is shown with cards instead.

 

[lojo]

Hippo, I wasn't able to find the cct article that specifically denotes the number of generations in a 'cycle' and how many generations per second, etc. but

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is a list of good articles to peruse. The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

... and for slot machines which have a difference in theoretical hold percentage which exceeds 4 percent for a single-coin play
versus maximum-bet play...

 

[Mousey]

...... The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc. Just thought you'd find it interesting.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Also, I must add. One of the companies here in town made alot of headlines in the local press here. What they did was the following.

They had slots in thir office, sat wagering wagering wagering until they got the jackpot, then they put the slots out again for others to play... Oh they made money this way, since the machines ate huge money back! They also got some bad press out of it since this man wasn't excactly a nice guy.

They could easily do this, since they was informed about the cycles and such from their slot, and since two jackpots do not occure within the same cycle.

Another one, tihs is funny! Have you ever heard of the times the machines have a bug which can be manipulated? So that you get a sure win all the time, happends on new slots! I myself have emptied slots this way.

But here is the kicker - when you have done this, have you ever played on the slot afterwards not using the trick? Loooser, you will not win shit!
I wonder why!

Again, knowing all this - hence my belief on online slots. Since noone else is fair, I doubt the online ones are. What count's in the end is the payout % - this is the numbers being served to the public and this is what is looked at as fair play! Aslong as you get that % you should smile and be happy - it's all good.

Probably made for export, here in the UK by Barcrest

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc. Just thought you'd find it interesting.

So does it's more widely circulated sister magazine "Casino Player". May be able to find the monthly list(s) Mousey refers to at www.casinocenter.com, the higher the denomination,the higher the payback percentage across the board regardless of location (State).

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Hippo, I wasn't able to find the cct article that specifically denotes the number of generations in a 'cycle' and how many generations per second, etc. but

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is a list of good articles to peruse. The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc.Just thought you'd find it interesting.

So does it's more widely circulated sister magazine "Casino Player". May be able to find the monthly list(s) Mousey refers to at www.casinocenter.com, the higher the denomination,the higher the payback percentage across the board regardless of location (State).

An example from the October 2006 issue for the State of Nevada

 

[lojo]

YAY!!! so... just have deep pockets, find one of the eighteen $25 machines downtown LV and get 103% I like that info

But I was referring to increasing bet size... say from .01 a line to .25 per line on a multi-denom machine.

But those charts and the resources you guys pointed to are excellent references, thank you.

 

[steinhaug]

What I never can get my head around (trick question), given the machines are so "random" - and do not balance the payout.

What if, a $25 machine, most player wager low all the time, and some smuck gets that lucky jackpot spin on max wager? Wouldnt the payout that month be like 3000% on that machine? I never see that!

Or, more likely! Lots of high rollers, and some smuck on minimum bet misses the jackpot? Shouldnt the payout be very low? Say 60% or so?

You never see that either, you see it in the 90% range all the time it seems. I sure missed a few jackpots in my life, however I am pretty sure I didn't "skew" the overall payout for that machine!

 

[brianzz]

Most high limit machines are 1 or 2 coins and don't offer much of a bonus for hitting the top pay. No video machines offer extra credits for hitting the top pay at max coins.

The numbers reflected on those type of reports are average coin in/coin out from day 1 of the month till day 30 of the month. So you could have 20 $25 machines that pay 40% of whats played into them and 5 that pay 300% of whats played into them you'll get the average of 92%

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Occam's Razor

With respect to:

IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play?

i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

It is much easier to program a slot to be random than to program it to progress through a predetermined but very large cycle. Especially since, if this cycle is ever discovered, the integrity of the slot, the company that created the slot, and the casino that offers it will be compromized.

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me

Occam's razor (I quote from Wikipedia) states: "the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory."

This is the correct way to view slots. The assumption that there is added complexity that purposely discriminates against certain players or forces the slot to behave in specified ways at specified times is a big one.

It requires far fewer assumptions to view slots as behaving randomly. That is how the casinos view them, that is how the game developers view them, that is how the programmers write them, and that is how they behave in practice.

There is just too much money to be made by offering fair and random slots to add any other "features" to the random number generation.

--Eliot

 

[steinhaug]

It is much easier to program a slot to be random than to program it to progress through a predetermined but very large cycle. Especially since, if this cycle is ever discovered, the integrity of the slot, the company that created the slot, and the casino that offers it will be compromized.

Sure, however if the point is to ensure profit you would go the extra mile. Programming a "random" cycle which is random in every cycle, however predictable in the way that the software can take advantage of good and bad cycles is very easy. In the end the total payout will also be 95% (or what you want it to be) and the accountants will be happy, stats will look great and everything.

As a software developer I can inform you this is very easy. Nobody says each cycle is identical, nobody says a cycle is even predictable. What is merely the case is that a cycle should in the end have 95% payout. This my friend, is an entirely different approach - the outcome will still look purely random at _all_ times whatever way you look at it since you can always add some spins to even the odds.

 

[steinhaug]

....

 

[brianzz]

Everyone keeps saying cycle, a cycle on a slot machine is defined as the time it takes for every single possible reel combination to be played, on most machines over 200000 combinations, so I guess the accurate description would be streak. But again that's not really accurate either, since it's all random, I guess you could call it good random or bad random.

Slot manufacturers use a good round number of 10,000,000 plays to determine the return of a specific set of virtual reel strips, when a machine or chip is released it comes with a PAR sheet to show the varience that should be expected in the short term, just to prove it's really random, see below.

3 CM Wild Star Red White & Blue - 97.404%
PULLS ............... LOWER% ....... UPPER%
1000. ...................52.42 ...........142.39
10000. .................83.18 ...........111.63
100000. ...............92.91 ...........101.90
1000000. .............95.98 .............98.83
10000000. ...........96.95 .............97.85

 

[takethemoney]

What I notice in RTG RealTime Slots is that when they stop paying, they stay that way until they eat your bankroll. I don't think it's random. I think when a player spends too much time on them, they get tighter, the more you play them. Seems like to me, if their gonna hit, they will do it fairly soon. The problem is, too many of us get lured into playing on, thinking that progressive is gonna hit.

Seems as of late, they are much tighter.

 

[RobWin]

Sure, however if the point is to ensure profit you would go the extra mile. Programming a "random" cycle which is random in every cycle, however predictable in the way that the software can take advantage of good and bad cycles is very easy. In the end the total payout will also be 95% (or what you want it to be) and the accountants will be happy, stats will look great and everything.

As a software developer I can inform you this is very easy. Nobody says each cycle is identical, nobody says a cycle is even predictable. What is merely the case is that a cycle should in the end have 95% payout. This my friend, is an entirely different approach - the outcome will still look purely random at _all_ times whatever way you look at it since you can always add some spins to even the odds.

Kimss, quick question, I'm just curious what programming language are most of the software programs that you develop written in ?

 

[brianzz]

What I notice in RTG RealTime Slots is that when they stop paying, they stay that way until they eat your bankroll. I don't think it's random. I think when a player spends too much time on them, they get tighter, the more you play them. Seems like to me, if their gonna hit, they will do it fairly soon. The problem is, too many of us get lured into playing on, thinking that progressive is gonna hit.

Seems as of late, they are much tighter.

That's where the sliding rule of returns come into play on RTG, house payment is due? Lets slide it over to eat money.. car payment due, move it a little further to eat more, etc. Probably wouldn't be too hard to have a program to automatically adjust this while someone is playing. EG they just hit a $500 pay on penny, lets get that back and the rest of their deposit.

I'm sure most games on RTG software are configurable down into the 60% range.