How slot machines may work, an update!!!

DogBoy001

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I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Heya,

We were debating a lottery-style system versus random slots.

Storing a string of random results is not a lottery-system.
If an RNG is independently deriving results as in a random slot system, with no correlation between spins, then simply storing results should have little impact, but does bring in security issues.

The lottery system of slots does not function in this manner.

Woooof
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
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Mar 11, 2009
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New York
Maybe the reason for developing this central server type slot machines, was for financial reasons. I would assume that the expense for maintaining individual random machines, requires many technicians and a great deal of maintenance. They also would have the convenience of a simple download to change at will all the machines percentage at once. To change anything on a single random machine, would require each individual machine to manually be worked on.

This is the only reason I could justify for them to bring such a shitty system to the forefront.
 

hippo925

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Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
wow! some great insights and theories. The most interesting thing to me is that IF an online slot software provider did indeed have a "lottery" style system, there would essentially be NO way for players to know the difference.

Keep in mind that IF a casino used software which was basically like buying scratch tickets:

1. They can still state that it is "random"
2. They can still advertise "random number generator certified by blah blah blah..."
3. They can still state RTP is 92%, 95%, blah blah blah...
4. They can still say....... pretty much anything you can say about truly random "vegas" style slots.

Also, i think it is interesting what other types of programming can be introduced that would still provide a "pseudo" random result while giving the casino an even bigger "edge." Kimss theory was a scary one but i could see how it would work extremely well (were you referring to MG?)

Obviously, i think there are great casinos out there, but i'm not really into the "they win no matter what, so they have no reason to cheat, etc..."
It's funny, but of all the people and groups in this world, how can online casino's and software makers be the ones that are assumed to be the most honest and the only group immune to greed...lol.

I also keep in mind that whenever an online casino is caught cheating....it seems it is ALWAYS an error or glitch. No one ever wants to call it for what it is...weird. Casinos have very little to lose in this respect.

and again, this is all just hypothetical, but interesting.
 

hippo925

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so cal
If my instincts are correct (and I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office) it really makes no difference, if all online slots are calculated in a collective way. The description of it being the same as standing in line at a convenience store (to me) is a negative reactionary impulse from an unframiliar idea. This is a normal reaction to something that is not repetative.

I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Like the video slots coming out for the first time 10 years ago, habituality, inherent in our human nature will ask for "the same way", meaning we feel we need to have the slot machine look like the way it did in the begining. But slowly we broke that bond with normality and now the video slots do not have the look of a machine standing in a row at a casino. Nor do the just have 3 reelsAND there are embedded interactive bonus features. WOW! We have come a long way... slowly.

In the same way I feel we are needing psychologically the same as we did yesterday in regards to one on one calculations. To me the difference is only a head trip. A collective calculation is just as valid as single... if in fact that is how it is done. It would seam easier and more secure to the operators and the players to have ALL payouts within a defined time or spin period that is large enough. AND If one calculation was used for multiple players then The slight shortcomings of the Pseudo RNG would be compensated for because the different players would be taking out results in one calculated sequence in an unorganized way. This would contribute to the randomness of the process.

I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office


But to actually know how it is done beyond speculation is immposible without expert knowledge.

Think i agree with you. i actually don't see too much of a difference outside of the psychology part. If you play lottery scratch tickets, it is still random to you unless you already know what everyone else got. If there is a lottery that has one scratch ticket awarding $1000 and both you and your friend buy one ticket AND he happens to get the $1000, then yeah... that sucks because you now know you can't win it..... but didn't both of you have the same odds?

I think it is mostly psychology and people would feel better thinking that it was all truly random. Just like people would rather believe that bonus rounds and free spins were all truly random.... If they learn differently, it takes the fun away for a lot of people.
 

DogBoy001

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Think i agree with you. i actually don't see too much of a difference outside of the psychology part. If you play lottery scratch tickets, it is still random to you unless you already know what everyone else got. If there is a lottery that has one scratch ticket awarding $1000 and both you and your friend buy one ticket AND he happens to get the $1000, then yeah... that sucks because you now know you can't win it..... but didn't both of you have the same odds?

Think of it this way:

Say on a lottery-style system there were (n) winning "tickets", say 100,000 and (x) losing "tickets", say 900,000.
Picture a scenario where, with 950,000 "tickets" sold, and 50,000 remaining, all winning prizes have been awarded.

Now the next 50,000 requests for a result must award a non-winning combination (in this extreme example).
Thus the last 50,000 bets are bets made with nil chance of return.
Even if there are only 100 bets remaining, or 1 bet remaining in a given cycle, the fact that a player has zip, zilch, zero chance to win is unfair (in comparison to a random system where on any game they can win)

Which is the inherent unfairness I refer to, to say nothing of top prize allocation.
In a lottery system there may only be one top prize.

A random system, by comparison, could award top prizes in successive spins.

It's way more than psychology involved.
A player that hits the top prize in a lottery slot may, for instance, stop playing that game for a period, knowing that it's impossible to hit it again until the next lottery cycle.
Similarly, given dissemination of information on gaming forums, in a publicised lottery system players may decrease play after realising top prize in a particular draw has been awarded, purely because their relative RTP has decreased, as this prize can no longer be awarded.

Woooof
 

mac-online

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I have had no interest in Lottery style games in the past So I must admit I might not know Exactly how it operates.

What you are saying
"A player that hits the top prize in a lottery slot may, for instance, stop playing that game for a period, knowing that it's impossible to hit it again until the next lottery cycle"

This description gives me the idea you are talking about a physical scratch card system. My idea of a lotter system is
selling tickets,
stoping the sales and
drawing a winning number.

So I must not know how lottery tickets system works.

I see 3 systems in discussion here:
A- individual random # generation (slots)
B- One string of random numbers printing (scratch cards) and open them during a set time period
C- Print (lottery tickets), distribute them, stop sales and THEN a string of random numbers is generated to define wining #s.

My Comments
A- Very cool and in practice. A relaxed "Time Off For Fun" no brainer which slots are famous for.

B- I can see a HUGE diference in the scratch card system and a possible view of unfairness depending on the players make-up. But the players have the option of waiting for the next set of scratch cards, if they are aware of a large winner. This gives an added dimension of technique that can be applied by the player.

C- Different than slots but perhaps easier to monitor. Lottery systems have an assured out come of win distribution. This could be construde as more fair or less fair. In a strict sense of the word "fair" I would see it as being fair for me. Perhaps the word fair is similar to the word "big or small". It is relative to the observer in most cases. But it can be agreed upon that it does not lend weight to the sellers of the tickets nor the buyers.
 

steinhaug

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Norway
A random system, by comparison, could award top prizes in successive spins.

I believe me analysiz of my previous years of gameplay through the playcheck data, and my experience as a compulsive gambler, tells me that while that may be a selling argument - it never happends!

I do however see this behaviour, machines giving the jackpot several times in a row also in landbased "random machines" in a way that it seems the systems are primed for payout. How the heck to a machine don't pay zilch for 3 months, then 3 jackpots in a saturday nite... Screw me over and make me believe it's random, right!

No no, there are things in play which we the players have little control over!

What we are arguing in this thread is really not interesting, since in the end a faulty system cannot be deteced without looking at the code. Only a dumb programmed skewing of data will be detected.

Remember online casinos give you your history, in plain numbers. This means they have taken into account players like me that download and go through the numbers. So if there is trickery, something I am convinced there is - it is impossible to prove since it boils down to bad luck.

(example: the system wants to eat your money, activate. If user has 100x win skip win. Meaning, it is impossible to have a good win until this feasture is disabled again. Normally a 100x win is hard enough to get, but without it your are dead anyway. Theese are the wins that make your day in the end, so by stealing 1 or 2 of theese wins, if you got them, you are a sure loser!)

Being in a pool of numbers, a lottery of you like, is nice if you are playing with others. However when playing with yourself it doesnt work since you only get the markedet 95% - always in the end. And still, an audit would prove it random since the number in themselves are... Just depends on where you jump into the cycle if you go straight up or straight down...

I said it before, I want to see some playcheck data for the next 10.000 spins from a guy in a Microgaming casino that won say 5K+. Most of us that play hard have had this, it's not that strange a win really! Keeping it is!
 

mac-online

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Costa Rican volcano
Well we were having fun on a Sunday focusing on how different games were managed and work. Until Monday came along and threw reality on top of the fire. You are most likely right, dead on, in your analysis of casino honesty and manegment. But we will never know exactly to what extent nor whom. I would imagine there are a few white hats out there running a good ship in their Software companies and or casinos but perhaps the minority.

The industry is in quite a state being loosely monitored.

I still get the feeling that a software company and or casino could come along and set up a tight self monitoring system that would prove an honest game to the public. It could set a new standard that all others would be forced into. I still feel that this would be recognized by a large group of players as an alternative to being semi humiliated by black/gray hat manegment. I still feel that if this were set up that it would be popular and would gain customer support in a big way. With sucses other casinos could follow. It would not take a consenses of players nor casinos to impliment this. It would take only one software company or casino to make the snow ball and point it down the hill.
 

jstrike

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Nov 16, 2010
Location
Europe
In the scenario outlined, a pool-based system would call for a result from a central server, which would allocate a result from all remaining results.
Thus if the only remaining results are non-winning results, these will still be sent out irrespective of the fact that the player could not win.
Similarly, if the top prize result or results have all been won, there is nil chance that the player could win that prize.

Which is the main reason that these types of systems are inherently unfair...players have no way of determining whether they even stand a chance of winning, whereas in a random game there is no correlation between the game that is being played and games that have been played before.

Wow!!! Old thread, but this just came to my attention. That is sooooooo ass-backwards. I never knew that was how the fruit systems operated. That's supposed to prevent people from making bad decisions with their money?! What they should do is keep the RNG pool random and alter the pay tables based on how much is in, so that each player knows how much is available to win. Otherwise, what would prevent an operator from keeping the pool permanently almost-empty?

My dad had an old Bell-Fruit nickel slot he bought from somewhere...lucky me (wonder how I ended up this way) he stuck it in my room when I was a kid. Why do you think those things had a glass/mesh window covering the jackpot??? Because if it's empty, you don't play it.
 

maxwall

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Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Location
Germany
All reputable online casinos say they have no influence on the game results ok.
:rolleyes:
whence comes the data stream with the gameresults?? from casino server ?:confused:

where is the RNG and from where calculated the RNG my game results??? :what:

these are all the questions I ask myself since I play online! 7 years meanwhile:D


hm yes the RNG is random and fair....but in my eyes not always
example breakdabankagain in 20 spins i got 7 times 4 blue gems with wild on a winning line but on first reel no wild and no blue gem ! hmm is that random :what:
 
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