How slot machines may work, an update!!!

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
The following was a post by dannyandf on a forum called slotmachines forum and credit to the author is given at the end i believe. A while back, i tried to explain my thoughts of how online slots may be more like playing a lottery instead of traditional landbased slots with real random number generators. The post was in resonse to some issues that the Oregon lottery had with one of their "slot-like" machines Davinci Diamonds (i think we've all seen this one in casinos.) Basically, it shows that MAYBE online slots don't work the way we think.... though they can still be somewhat random:

" The gambling machines at American Indian-owned casinos in Snohomish County are among the region's most popular ways to pass the time. The flashing lights and ringing bells of the machines transport local residents to Las Vegas, and there's always a chance of winning big.

But they're not really slot machines.

The tribes and state gambling supervisors call them "slot-style" machines. It may seem like a nit-picky distinction, but there's a big difference between the slot machines in Las Vegas and other gambling hot spots and the slot-style machines in Washington state.

Slot machines, like those in Las Vegas, have a random number generator inside the machine, according to the Washington Indian Gaming Association. Winnings at each machine are solely based on that machine's number generator.

Slot-style machines are electronic versions of scratch lottery tickets. All the slot-style machines are connected to a collective number generator. At the Tulalip Casino, Angel of the Winds Casino or other gambling halls in the state, playing the "slots" means playing against everyone sitting at a machine.

"They look similar to a slot machine, but you're actually purchasing an electronic scratch ticket," said Ernest Stebbins, executive director of the Washington Indian Gaming Association.
When tribes in Washington State first negotiated the right to open casinos, state officials said gambling machines should operate on the same basis as the state lottery system, Stebbins said.

That means there's no difference between sitting at a slot-style machine in a local casino and standing at the counter at a convenience store to repeatedly purchase scratch lottery tickets. But convenience store clerks don't ring bells when someone wins or ask gamblers if they'd like a cocktail.

Reporter Krista J. Kapralos: 425-339-3422 or [email protected]. "


What do you guys think? Possible that some online software is designed this way too?
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
What do you guys think? Possible that some online software is designed this way too?

There are two kinds of slots online. The Las Vegas random kind, making up nearly all the slot machines online, and the British 'fruit machine' variety. All fruit machines are clearly labelled as such or as 'Amusements With Prizes'. They are not random as the payout is dependent on the money that has gone in.

As it explains in that article, the reason they operate slots any other way than 'random' is because some regulator told them to. Random is better, but their hands are tied.

Online casinos are not restricted as to how their games are operated, so they don't run crappy lottery-style slots.
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
You know, i actually thought a LOT more people would have been interested in this story. Slot machines that are actually lottery tickets in B&M casinos!!! Am i seriously one of the only few people who understands the possible implications of this story in relation to understanding how online slots work?
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
There are two kinds of slots online. The Las Vegas random kind, making up nearly all the slot machines online, and the British 'fruit machine' variety. All fruit machines are clearly labelled as such or as 'Amusements With Prizes'. They are not random as the payout is dependent on the money that has gone in.

As it explains in that article, the reason they operate slots any other way than 'random' is because some regulator told them to. Random is better, but their hands are tied.

Online casinos are not restricted as to how their games are operated, so they don't run crappy lottery-style slots.

I think you may be making a big assumption that most online slot machines operate like the "the las vegas random kind." And actually, even if online slots worked like a lottery, it would still be random unless you know which spin or scratch card is the winner. They can still be set to 95% RTP, they still have a random number generator.

It would just mean that the reels and displays mean NOTHING. IF online slots worked this way as well, it would mean, just like a lottery, that the casino never has any risk. (for example, if the casino gave out 10 cards (or spins) for $1, and only one card was a winner for $9.... that's a 90% RTP and still random to us except that if someone won the $9 first, you now know that you cannot win it.)

What would be better for a casino? A lottery type online slot or a truly random one? Remember, there would be NO way for anyone to tell the difference.
 

katodog

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Location
Rochester,NY
You know, i actually thought a LOT more people would have been interested in this story. Slot machines that are actually lottery tickets in B&M casinos!!! Am i seriously one of the only few people who understands the possible implications of this story in relation to understanding how online slots work?

I am very interested in this! I would hate it to be like a scratch ticket. I would prefer to believe it is random. But how can we tell the difference? hmmmm.................
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
You know, i actually thought a LOT more people would have been interested in this story. Slot machines that are actually lottery tickets in B&M casinos!!! Am i seriously one of the only few people who understands the possible implications of this story in relation to understanding how online slots work?

Like I said, they do it like this in a few casinos because some dumb-ass politician told them to. Stop worrying.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
I think you may be making a big assumption that most online slot machines operate like the "the las vegas random kind." And actually, even if online slots worked like a lottery, it would still be random unless you know which spin or scratch card is the winner. They can still be set to 95% RTP, they still have a random number generator.

It would just mean that the reels and displays mean NOTHING. IF online slots worked this way as well, it would mean, just like a lottery, that the casino never has any risk. (for example, if the casino gave out 10 cards (or spins) for $1, and only one card was a winner for $9.... that's a 90% RTP and still random to us except that if someone won the $9 first, you now know that you cannot win it.)

What would be better for a casino? A lottery type online slot or a truly random one? Remember, there would be NO way for anyone to tell the difference.

Doesn't matter. Casino is guaranteed to win, because so many spins are played. If you did 1 million spins at 95% the casino is CERTAIN to come out ahead. Have you not noticed those progressive jackpots? Sometimes they get hit twice in a few days, sometimes it takes months. The casino are comfortable with this, because the maths say they will come out ahead in the end.

Seriously, casinos don't need to worry about variance. That's why they have bet size limits. If a new casino is offering $1000 video poker - worry. If Ladbrokes are offering it - not a problem.
 

casinojack

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Location
Costa Rica
re: RTG, Have you ever seen this?

Old / Expired Link

There is some more info out there also,but as far as any of the big guys out there, all games (slots etc )are not linked together...
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
re: RTG, Have you ever seen this?

Old / Expired Link

There is some more info out there also,but as far as any of the big guys out there, all games (slots etc )are not linked together...

thanks casinojack! it was already explained by our resident rtg expert how rtg slots work and it does seem to be like "vegas" slots in rtg's case.

and really, this is just an interesting topic because, though i agree with katadog that i would prefer online slots to be like "vegas" slots, even if it was like a scratch ticket... isn't it still pretty random?

But it really points to the fact you really have to trust the software provider and it seems even more reason to stick with the "big" ones. If slots POSSIBLY can be programmed to play differently from what everyone thinks, it makes you wonder what other kind of programming can be implemented.

Things that make you go hmmmm.....:D
 

DogBoy001

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Location
Great Southern Land
Heya,

Lottery-style and bingo-based slots (such as class II US machines) tend to be a quirk found in some jurisdictions that ban random spinning reel slot machines (by random, I mean independent un-weighted reel stops driven by RNG results, followed by win evaluation, and with no reference to the history of play before or after any given spin)

Random spinning reel slots enjoy tremendous popularity, so in jurisdictions where these are banned, but other mechanisms are allowed, you tend to find machines that have the semblance of a slot machine, but function and play very differently.

The systems have limitations, and I doubt you'd ever want to use a system of this type unless one was forced to by jurisdictional rules.

Woooof
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
Heya,

Lottery-style and bingo-based slots (such as class II US machines) tend to be a quirk found in some jurisdictions that ban random spinning reel slot machines (by random, I mean independent un-weighted reel stops driven by RNG results, followed by win evaluation, and with no reference to the history of play before or after any given spin)

Random spinning reel slots enjoy tremendous popularity, so in jurisdictions where these are banned, but other mechanisms are allowed, you tend to find machines that have the semblance of a slot machine, but function and play very differently.

The systems have limitations, and I doubt you'd ever want to use a system of this type unless one was forced to by jurisdictional rules.

Woooof

In case anyone was wondering... this is the resident rtg expert i was talking about :lolup: Apparently, RTG slots calculate a random number for each reel and a win evaluator determines the wins, like vegas slots. I wonder how other software's work?
 

mac-online

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Costa Rican volcano
I need to wrap this around my head. So Please correct this simple statement if it is wrong.

You are talking about two different systems
1 a RNG in every machine (vegas style)
2 a RNG that is spread out over many machines. (scratchcard style)

Am I correct? Is'nt it as simple as that?
If so I can understand the thread. f not I need to bear down with more brain power to "get it".
 

DogBoy001

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Location
Great Southern Land
You are talking about two different systems
1 a RNG in every machine (vegas style)
2 a RNG that is spread out over many machines. (scratchcard style)

Am I correct? Is'nt it as simple as that?

Heya,

Pool-based results are very different from a system that gives random results.

Under a pool-based structure there are a defined number of winning and non-winning results, with winning results of varying magnitude.
There may be, for example, only one result of the top prize, and a swag of non-winning results.

Think of it as a lottery with a fixed number of tickets that are sold and then the lottery is drawn (or think of it as a physical print run of scratch lottery cards)
All results will be dispatched prior to a new pool being opened for sale.

In the scenario outlined, a pool-based system would call for a result from a central server, which would allocate a result from all remaining results.
Thus if the only remaining results are non-winning results, these will still be sent out irrespective of the fact that the player could not win.
Similarly, if the top prize result or results have all been won, there is nil chance that the player could win that prize.

Which is the main reason that these types of systems are inherently unfair...players have no way of determining whether they even stand a chance of winning, whereas in a random game there is no correlation between the game that is being played and games that have been played before.

Bingo back-end systems that use slot displays operate somewhat differently, and depending on the system can still achieve a level of randomness in the result, and AWP's use reactive determination to remain within fixed RTP bands.

Sheeesh, give me a random system anyday.

Woooof
 

mac-online

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Costa Rican volcano
Which is the main reason that these types of systems are inherently unfair...players have no way of determining whether they even stand a chance of winning, whereas in a random game there is no correlation between the game that is being played and games that have been played before.


There is nothing in existence that does not have a relative "meaning" attached to it. And for every person the object remains the same yet the meaning is different. So I can not argue that he two systems have different meaning for every different person. What I am trying to get is the meaning that it will have for me. I understand the different systems that produce the normal Vegas slot games with a RNG and the Pooled games using some form of randomness to print the winning numbers on the tickets. The big difference I see is that the pooled systems have a smother variance. Their payout is based on the same RTP but over a specific time period. This comes with a definite psychological impact for some people. Yet your statement of "unfair" could be well placed for you. But for me and unfair practice would be one that gives the operators more money at the end of the story and the players less. This does not seam to be the case.

You state that the wining ticket could have already been sold so the next buyer does not have a chance. In one limited view point this could be a fact But really (for me) no one knows which ticket it was.. the 1st sold or the last sold. And it was chosen randomly. Also if you where to step out of the apparent flow of time and looked at the situation from an absolute view point (this where time exists but not flowing forward nor backward). You would also be able to see that the Vegas system with a PRNG will not give the player a win even though he is about to place a coin in the slot machine.

I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to sell the idea of lottery tickets. I am having fun with psychological perspectives ...and perhaps the term "unfair" is in question.:)

But I feel I might not understand the difference in the two systems yet. Do I reflect and understanding of them or am I still floundering in the sugnificance of their differences?:eek2:
 

DogBoy001

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Location
Great Southern Land
I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to sell the idea of lottery tickets. I am having fun with psychological perspectives ...and perhaps the term "unfair" is in question.:)

Heya,

In essence it boils down to one system (random) where you may or may not win on any given spin, given that there is no correlation between spin A and spin B, and in the example of the lottery-style, a system where you may not even have the chance to win when you place your bet, or have a chance to win all advertised prizes.

That seems pretty unfair to me.

Woooof
 

mac-online

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Costa Rican volcano
Perhaps we are talking about perspectives.

Why do you feel you do not have a chance of wining when you buy a lottery ticket. Is it predetermined before they are sold? When do they select the winning ticket #, before they are sold or after, just before anouncement?
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
From what I understand from the two different types of systems, I was told it works like this.

In Yonkers (NY) they recently added a casino at the horse track (trotters) that was going down the drain. This lottery system we talk about with a central server is the system in use there. All the machines are video slot machines, and all the wages made on them are sent to a central server. This central server makes the decisions for all the machines on the casino floor based on the wages that are being sent to the central server. When its time for a jackpot the server randomly selects a machine and feeds it the information to hit a jackpot. This also is the way all the different payouts are decided. I would assume that the central server takes into consideration the different coin size being wagered, before a payout is made.

What it boils down to, is that everyone in the casino is playing on the same machine at once.

There also was a big to do already about a scam at this place with the internal operators. Apparently, they also give out all sorts of free gifts, and cash as promotions. These promotions are allegedly awarded randomly to players on machines. Well some how the operators new which machines would win the free gifts, and made sure friends or family would be at these certain machines. They of course would chop up the free gifts between the operators and the players that were in the know. From what I remember reading about it, the amount was pretty impressive that they won. Of course they were all allegedly charged criminally. They kept this incident pretty quiet, since nothing else about it has ever been printed or on the news since the story broke. Was about two months ago this happened.

So, if the operators new which machines were going to win the random prizes, how random is it? I dont know if the prize wins, are actually connected to the same software the payouts for the machines are. But Im certainly not setting my feet in that place.

Rigged will eventually become the topic for these places, just as online casinos and poker rooms have become. Not that independent machines with their own random generator cant be rigged; as we all know about that internal technician in Vegas that set certain machines to hit jackpots after following a certain coin denomination pattern.

I dont know about you, but my feelings are when humans are involved with over seeing writing or entering software that involves gambling payouts, Im not that comfortable. I love to gamble and do take that chance online, but with no doubt in a small way when compared to live.

When it comes to slot machines, Ill take a machine and its own random generator every time. You should always remember this quote when playing online, "money could make a blind man see"
 

mac-online

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Costa Rican volcano
I think you have said it well. When humans are involved their is a chance it was rigged. And this
Is what people perceive as unfair not so much the system. Thank You.
RTG with fruit frenzy slot machine.
Preprinted scratch cards could be distributed unfairly. Etc etc.
These are just two examples of manipulation by humans in casino slots and physical scratch cards.

On a slightly different subject It would seam you could also draw a correlation between your idea of everyone playing on the same slot machine in Yonkers and a lottery ticket that was selected just before the payout. There is no predetermined out come and people are selling Bogus tickets. They are playing on the same slot machine at the same time and the slot machine has a low variance phenomenon where it is set to conform to the RTP. It sort of its own animal. But unfair I dont think it is. Just different.

OK then a technical question about PRNG in online casinos. How do they "exactly" work?
It must be one of the following ways, or a variation of them.

A- The PRNG calculator produces a number on every spin of every player at the slot machine separately.

B- The PRNG produces a string of results on the first spin of a single player and these #'s are dolled out as the player goes along, one by one.

C- The PRNG is continually producing different calculations for one player every millisecond and when the slot is clicked it hits the calculated number by a coincidence of timing.

D- The PRNG is producing a series of numbers and for every body and each slot in every casino happens to be clicked which produces a win or loss as this stream of numbers is coming by.

E-The PRNG produces a string of numbers in the morning (for example) and in sequence they are dolled out to the spins of players in a time sequence.

There are a number of possibilities. For me it is an interesting question. Any one know a programer that can shed some light on this trivia question?
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
Howard Leterer once explained that the cards that are dealt out during a poker game online, are determined by when ones mouse is clicked. Another words if your the last person to act, even if its a fold, the cards that flop, turn, or river are based on when the last player in the hand clicks the mouse.

He explained it worked like that so there was no way of someone eventually learning how to know in advance the already predetermined next card. Sort of protecting everyone from someone peeking at the deck.

I wasn't happy with this explanation, because ever since then when I get sucked out on I wonder what could of happened had I waited another second.

I prefer taking my lumps knowing I had nothing to do with the outcome, or whoever clicked last.
 
Last edited:

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Howard Leterer once explained that the cards that are dealt out during a poker game online, are determined by when ones mouse is clicked. Another words if your the last person to act, even if its a fold, the cards that flop, turn, or river are based on when the last player in the hand clicks the mouse.

He explained it worked like that so there was no way of someone eventually learning how to know in advance the already predetermined next card. Sort of protecting everyone from someone peeking at the deck.

I wasn't happy with this explanation, because ever since then when I get sucked out on I wonder what could of happened had I waited another second.

I prefer taking my lumps knowing I had nothing to do with the outcome, or whoever clicked last.

This is just one of doing things. Some games will use a shuffling algorithm, which electronically shuffles the cards (or their numerical representation 1 - 52), such that they just take the next card off the already shuffled deck.

This is a better solution in many ways than the one you describe, because what you are effectively describing is a shuffle that takes place after every card - and that's not realistic at all.

The server shouldn't send anything other than the current card to the poker client in any circumstances anyway, so it's not true that this is a security risk - the client cannot look at the shuffled deck, any more than a player in a casino can.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
I agree with everything you say thelawnet. Yet, that's exactly what Howard L. said for the site he sponsors.

I wonder how many poker sites use this system?
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
The following was a post by dannyandf on a forum called slotmachines forum and credit to the author is given at the end i believe. A while back, i tried to explain my thoughts of how online slots may be more like playing a lottery instead of traditional landbased slots with real random number generators. The post was in resonse to some issues that the Oregon lottery had with one of their "slot-like" machines Davinci Diamonds (i think we've all seen this one in casinos.) Basically, it shows that MAYBE online slots don't work the way we think.... though they can still be somewhat random:

" The gambling machines at American Indian-owned casinos in Snohomish County are among the region's most popular ways to pass the time. The flashing lights and ringing bells of the machines transport local residents to Las Vegas, and there's always a chance of winning big.

But they're not really slot machines.

The tribes and state gambling supervisors call them "slot-style" machines. It may seem like a nit-picky distinction, but there's a big difference between the slot machines in Las Vegas and other gambling hot spots and the slot-style machines in Washington state.

Slot machines, like those in Las Vegas, have a random number generator inside the machine, according to the Washington Indian Gaming Association. Winnings at each machine are solely based on that machine's number generator.

Slot-style machines are electronic versions of scratch lottery tickets. All the slot-style machines are connected to a collective number generator. At the Tulalip Casino, Angel of the Winds Casino or other gambling halls in the state, playing the "slots" means playing against everyone sitting at a machine.

"They look similar to a slot machine, but you're actually purchasing an electronic scratch ticket," said Ernest Stebbins, executive director of the Washington Indian Gaming Association.
When tribes in Washington State first negotiated the right to open casinos, state officials said gambling machines should operate on the same basis as the state lottery system, Stebbins said.

That means there's no difference between sitting at a slot-style machine in a local casino and standing at the counter at a convenience store to repeatedly purchase scratch lottery tickets. But convenience store clerks don't ring bells when someone wins or ask gamblers if they'd like a cocktail.

Reporter Krista J. Kapralos: 425-339-3422 or [email protected]. "


What do you guys think? Possible that some online software is designed this way too?


This one hits home Hippo, I live within a few hours of these casinos and play at Tulalip, Angel and Skagit, they pretty much play the same as they do here in Canada, just not sure how the Government in WA State regulates or if they regulate, here in my BC they are regulated to about 92% based on 10 million spins at max bet.
 

DogBoy001

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Location
Great Southern Land
Perhaps we are talking about perspectives.

Why do you feel you do not have a chance of wining when you buy a lottery ticket. Is it predetermined before they are sold? When do they select the winning ticket #, before they are sold or after, just before anouncement?

It's far more than just perception.

When one buys a lottery ticket the draw is occurring subsequent to this event, and the draw is conducted all in one go, following which winning tickets are displayed and the winners get paid.

In the slot lottery system described the draw is occurring first, following which players receive a slot display equating to a "ticket" from the available tickets that have not yet been displayed.

Hence in example A) (real world lottery) when a player buys a ticket they have as much chance of winning as any other player

Under example B) (lottery-style slot) a player may have zero chance of winning.

This is certainly not just a matter of perception, unless one is saying that ignorance of the way such a system works is bliss.

Gambling has one inherent principle that is not being followed in example B: The punter should always have a chance of winning

Woooof
 

mac-online

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Costa Rican volcano
If my instincts are correct (and I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office) it really makes no difference, if all online slots are calculated in a collective way. The description of it being the same as standing in line at a convenience store (to me) is a negative reactionary impulse from an unframiliar idea. This is a normal reaction to something that is not repetative.

I am curious in a trivia sort of way. I have thought about the difference in a RNG making a different calculation for every spin of every slot player compared to one string of calculations over 1,ooo,ooo slot players all at once and the difference does not seam to be significant in considering the final outcome or fairness. If a player has an emotional charge over the difference , then it matters in regards to popularity and promotions. But for me I see that the outcomes are just as "fair" and exciting as individual calculations.

Like the video slots coming out for the first time 10 years ago, habituality, inherent in our human nature will ask for "the same way", meaning we feel we need to have the slot machine look like the way it did in the begining. But slowly we broke that bond with normality and now the video slots do not have the look of a machine standing in a row at a casino. Nor do the just have 3 reelsAND there are embedded interactive bonus features. WOW! We have come a long way... slowly.

In the same way I feel we are needing psychologically the same as we did yesterday in regards to one on one calculations. To me the difference is only a head trip. A collective calculation is just as valid as single... if in fact that is how it is done. It would seam easier and more secure to the operators and the players to have ALL payouts within a defined time or spin period that is large enough. AND If one calculation was used for multiple players then The slight shortcomings of the Pseudo RNG would be compensated for because the different players would be taking out results in one calculated sequence in an unorganized way. This would contribute to the randomness of the process.

I would LOVE a casino rep to do some investigating at his home office


But to actually know how it is done beyond speculation is immposible without expert knowledge.
 

steinhaug

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
And old post which still do not include the obvious idea.

Online casinoes works with an account, you do not get more accounts. They track your play, and wager and wins. (lets not forget the playcheck data).

A simple sollution to keep the players happy is load balancing. You give a random play, however you add a little magic with a simple if statement. If the user is supposedly a winner, and the next spin is a winner - let's spin again so hi stands 2x chance of losing. Likewise you are a loser for to long, spin the numbers atleast 5 times and serve the best win.

This methods are so easy to implement, and impossible to detect since the numbers are still random - however you are either unlucky or lucky at the time.
 
Top