How many spins have you lost consecutively

walmartman56

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Location
martinez, CA
Im asking this question because i recently played 150 games of 30 ball bingo at ignition casino and didnt win. I wrote to them asking how this could happen and was assured they abide by all rules and that a players trust is their main priority. Is there some kind of mathematical formula to follow to help you decide what games to play?
 

walmartman56

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Location
martinez, CA
I don't play bingo as I'd sooner stare at the wall, but as far as slots, you'd expect some return in a decent amount of spins. I've personally, maybe had around 20-30 spins with zero win, more with less than my initial bet.

Stick to accredited casinos where you can expect fair games.

Thank you for your post. I didnt see ignition on the accredited list.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
My respective record from my logs:

St*rb*rst 21
Thunderstruck 2 19
Raping Rhino 31
BDBA 25
Ruby Slippers 6 (yes, try and NOT get a win for 6 spins!)
Kronos 27
Power Stars 47
DoA 11
Twin Spin 16
IR 22
 

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
My respective record from my logs:

St*rb*rst 21
Thunderstruck 2 19
Raping Rhino 31
BDBA 25
Ruby Slippers 6 (yes, try and NOT get a win for 6 spins!)
Kronos 27
Power Stars 47
DoA 11
Twin Spin 16
IR 22

That SOAB game has (only once admittedly) managed a massive 52 win less spins and a whopping 96 with no join ups for me.

Although I see some 'belters' in your videos and some nice screenies from other members - It has become in recent sessions my nemesis and very close to joining my 'Never again' list.

I think it would be easier in future to simply Paypal you my deposit :p
 

richmcd

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Location
Worldwide
Im asking this question because i recently played 150 games of 30 ball bingo at ignition casino and didnt win. I wrote to them asking how this could happen and was assured they abide by all rules and that a players trust is their main priority. Is there some kind of mathematical formula to follow to help you decide what games to play?

What bet are you making? I'm afraid it depends on the rules of the game (I assume this is a game you're playing against the casino, not other players?). But 150 games without a win doesn't seem that low for bingo. Bingo/keno games have notoriously deceptive maths. Just because the number of balls in the game seems low doesn't mean the odds aren't astronomical. I think the statistic for the standard keno jackpot (80 balls, 20 drawn, match all 20 to win) is that if every human who has ever lived since the dawn of our race did nothing but play keno for their entire life, you still wouldn't expect the jackpot to have been won. It's quadrillions to one. And pays out at about 40,000 to 1, I think! It's easily the shittest bet you can make. The casino could let you make the bet for FREE and they'd still not really be risking anything. But at first glance it doesn't seem THAT much worse than a normal lottery, because the numbers you can see at the outset (20, 80) don't seem that bad.

So it really depends on what specific bet you're making. It looks like there are 9 spaces on a card. In the extreme case, if you're drawing 9 balls out of 30 and have to match all 9, the odds would be 9/30 x 8/29 x 7/28 x 6/27 x 5/26 x 4/25 x 3/24 x 2/23 x 1/20 which I make 1/13,656,825 (one in thirteen million, six hundred and fifty six thousand, eight hundred and twenty-five)!:eek: So no, losing 150 in a row wouldn't be a surprise!! ;)

I expect (hope!) you're playing something less extreme like that, but even a very modest seeming bet might actually be millions to one against.

Comparing it to runs of bad slot luck probably won't be the info you're looking for. They're very different beasts.
 

richmcd

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Location
Worldwide
Right. Your question intrigued me so I looked up the game. And the short answer is that the odds on this aren't quite as terrible as I'd expected, but they're still terrible. If you want some fun, better odds, and the chance of winning a jackpot, you should pick a slot, ANY slot and play that instead. If you like this kind of fixed payout, not very complicated game (seems like total drudgery to me, but to each their own), then print out a blackjack table and switch to blackjack. If you want more info, though, including some maths, read on...

For those that don't know the game, it's just bingo/keno with some slightly unusual parameters. A ticket has just 9 numbers. You choose how many tickets you want, and how many balls (out of a low-seeming 30) you want to draw (the choices are 20, 22 or 24). The game draws the balls and you get paid for every ticket you match ALL 9 balls on. I couldn't find a paytable, but from the experiment I ran (with play money! I'm not insane!), a 10c winning ticket pays $8, $2.70 and $1 for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games respectively. The huge difference in those payout values compared to the (seemingly) small difference in the number of chosen balls should already indicate how human intuition completely breaks where combinatorics are concerned (even more so than with slot variance).

You calculate the odds of winning using the combinatorial function. This is basically the number of different ways of choosing one set of things out of a larger set of things. For example, the total number of possible tickets (i.e., the number of ways to choose 9 numbers out of 30) is a little over fourteen million (14,307,150). The maths for calculating the precise odds of winning has a few more steps, but it's just variants of this function and simple division. I'm happy to explain it if you like - you can easily do it with a calculator, and even with a pen and paper if you have a little patience - but I'll just assume you want the results. I cheated and did it in 30 secs in Excel, which you can see below this post.

But basically, the odds of a SINGLE ticket winning are just over 1%, 3% and 9% for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games, respectively. Multiplying that by the payout gives an RTP of 93.9%, 93.9% and 91.4% for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games, respectively. The 20 ball game is slightly better (because of rounding), while the 24 ball game is absolutely awful - some of the worst online odds you'll see. If you're not familiar with RTP, basically it means that for every dollar you spend on the 20 ball game, you can expect to get 91 cents back. If it was a bank account, every year they'd take 9% of your money. Online slots tend to have a minimum RTP of 95%, while games like blackjack can be over 99%. But there's no chance of hitting a win bigger than 2.5x your stake with blackjack, so often the slot trade-off is better, sacrificing long-term returns for potential short-term gains. This game is the worst of both worlds.

I'm afraid this still doesn't answer your original question of how unlikely a 150 run loss is, because we don't know the details. Which version of the game were you playing? How many tickets were you buying? If you're buying 100 tickets, then that's like 100 slot spins at once. Instead of asking how many consecutive losing slot spins we've had, you should ask how many consecutive losing slot sessions we've had. But even that isn't much use, because of variance. There's no way to win a huge jackpot on 30 ball bingo, it's just a pure example of the reverse compound interest formula that makes gambling a losing proposition in the long run. If you play a large number of low value tickets at once it will just eat your money.

I know it's not really my place to say, but please stop playing this... It's not like slots where you're riding a variance rollercoaster, hoping to leap off at the top before the inevitable crash, this is just burning money. If this is the kind of game you like, at least switch to blackjack. The casino wasn't cheating you. It's just a shitty, shitty game.

*EDIT* I guess this isn't quite fair. I didn't realise you can buy individual tickets (it looked like you were stuck with 40-100). I guess if you're playing one ticket at a time, hoping for an 80x payout, then this becomes a super-high variance game you can theoretically get a long way ahead on (and 150 losses in a row would be pretty unlucky, but not that unlucky). But that's not a risk I'd be willing to take, not at these odds. And the 100 ticket version is definitely just a money pit.

30 Ball Bingo RTP.jpg
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
Thank you for your post. I didnt see ignition on the accredited list.
Ignition is a relatively new casino from the Bodog/Bovada group.

Ignition has never been accredited - but it probably would have ended up there if the owners of this group hadn't changed their affiliate terms without warning, which lead to the above 2 brand being removed from the accredited section a few weeks ago. :(
Shame, because as far as casino operators go, they are otherwise honest & reputable.

KK
 

Nicola

Closed Account
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Location
Malta
I remember having some wagering left at Best Casino earlier in the year, and I thought I would do 50 spins @ £10.00 on Creature of the Black Lagoon. I had 25 dead spins in a row, so I moved on feeling utterly sick. :mad:
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I remember having some wagering left at Best Casino earlier in the year, and I thought I would do 50 spins @ £10.00 on Creature of the Black Lagoon. I had 25 dead spins in a row, so I moved on feeling utterly sick. :mad:

What, you were allowed to bet £10 a spin while under wagering?? :confused:
 

theapple

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Location
far far away
What, you were allowed to bet £10 a spin while under wagering?? :confused:

they dont have any rules about max bet, and you can play all the games too. I just registered there a couple of days actually, and i liked their straighforward terms. Only made one deposit so far but one of my next deposits is probably going their way.

also im pretty sure i was able to cashout at some point, because it was showing separate cash and bonus amounts. After i finished my initial first deposit wagering, i still had like $20 winnings from 100 gonzo free spins showing as bonus money, but the rest turned into cash and i believe i was able to cashout even without wagering free spins winnings

Not entirely sure about it though, so some more experienced player could clear things up a bit, but i really liked the place because games were running smoothly and their T&C have no traps whatsoever. I dont think they have all netent games though, as some i wanted to play were missing at that time :oops:
 

walmartman56

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Location
martinez, CA
What bet are you making? I'm afraid it depends on the rules of the game (I assume this is a game you're playing against the casino, not other players?). But 150 games without a win doesn't seem that low for bingo. Bingo/keno games have notoriously deceptive maths. Just because the number of balls in the game seems low doesn't mean the odds aren't astronomical. I think the statistic for the standard keno jackpot (80 balls, 20 drawn, match all 20 to win) is that if every human who has ever lived since the dawn of our race did nothing but play keno for their entire life, you still wouldn't expect the jackpot to have been won. It's quadrillions to one. And pays out at about 40,000 to 1, I think! It's easily the shittest bet you can make. The casino could let you make the bet for FREE and they'd still not really be risking anything. But at first glance it doesn't seem THAT much worse than a normal lottery, because the numbers you can see at the outset (20, 80) don't seem that bad.

So it really depends on what specific bet you're making. It looks like there are 9 spaces on a card. In the extreme case, if you're drawing 9 balls out of 30 and have to match all 9, the odds would be 9/30 x 8/29 x 7/28 x 6/27 x 5/26 x 4/25 x 3/24 x 2/23 x 1/20 which I make 1/13,656,825 (one in thirteen million, six hundred and fifty six thousand, eight hundred and twenty-five)!:eek: So no, losing 150 in a row wouldn't be a surprise!! ;)

I expect (hope!) you're playing something less extreme like that, but even a very modest seeming bet might actually be millions to one against.

Comparing it to runs of bad slot luck probably won't be the info you're looking for. They're very different beasts.

I knew that if I posted this question I would get the AWESOME answers. I really appreciate the time and effort.:lolup:
 

walmartman56

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Location
martinez, CA
Right. Your question intrigued me so I looked up the game. And the short answer is that the odds on this aren't quite as terrible as I'd expected, but they're still terrible. If you want some fun, better odds, and the chance of winning a jackpot, you should pick a slot, ANY slot and play that instead. If you like this kind of fixed payout, not very complicated game (seems like total drudgery to me, but to each their own), then print out a blackjack table and switch to blackjack. If you want more info, though, including some maths, read on...

For those that don't know the game, it's just bingo/keno with some slightly unusual parameters. A ticket has just 9 numbers. You choose how many tickets you want, and how many balls (out of a low-seeming 30) you want to draw (the choices are 20, 22 or 24). The game draws the balls and you get paid for every ticket you match ALL 9 balls on. I couldn't find a paytable, but from the experiment I ran (with play money! I'm not insane!), a 10c winning ticket pays $8, $2.70 and $1 for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games respectively. The huge difference in those payout values compared to the (seemingly) small difference in the number of chosen balls should already indicate how human intuition completely breaks where combinatorics are concerned (even more so than with slot variance).

You calculate the odds of winning using the combinatorial function. This is basically the number of different ways of choosing one set of things out of a larger set of things. For example, the total number of possible tickets (i.e., the number of ways to choose 9 numbers out of 30) is a little over fourteen million (14,307,150). The maths for calculating the precise odds of winning has a few more steps, but it's just variants of this function and simple division. I'm happy to explain it if you like - you can easily do it with a calculator, and even with a pen and paper if you have a little patience - but I'll just assume you want the results. I cheated and did it in 30 secs in Excel, which you can see below this post.

But basically, the odds of a SINGLE ticket winning are just over 1%, 3% and 9% for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games, respectively. Multiplying that by the payout gives an RTP of 93.9%, 93.9% and 91.4% for the 20, 22 and 24 ball games, respectively. The 20 ball game is slightly better (because of rounding), while the 24 ball game is absolutely awful - some of the worst online odds you'll see. If you're not familiar with RTP, basically it means that for every dollar you spend on the 20 ball game, you can expect to get 91 cents back. If it was a bank account, every year they'd take 9% of your money. Online slots tend to have a minimum RTP of 95%, while games like blackjack can be over 99%. But there's no chance of hitting a win bigger than 2.5x your stake with blackjack, so often the slot trade-off is better, sacrificing long-term returns for potential short-term gains. This game is the worst of both worlds.

I'm afraid this still doesn't answer your original question of how unlikely a 150 run loss is, because we don't know the details. Which version of the game were you playing? How many tickets were you buying? If you're buying 100 tickets, then that's like 100 slot spins at once. Instead of asking how many consecutive losing slot spins we've had, you should ask how many consecutive losing slot sessions we've had. But even that isn't much use, because of variance. There's no way to win a huge jackpot on 30 ball bingo, it's just a pure example of the reverse compound interest formula that makes gambling a losing proposition in the long run. If you play a large number of low value tickets at once it will just eat your money.

I know it's not really my place to say, but please stop playing this... It's not like slots where you're riding a variance rollercoaster, hoping to leap off at the top before the inevitable crash, this is just burning money. If this is the kind of game you like, at least switch to blackjack. The casino wasn't cheating you. It's just a shitty, shitty game.

*EDIT* I guess this isn't quite fair. I didn't realise you can buy individual tickets (it looked like you were stuck with 40-100). I guess if you're playing one ticket at a time, hoping for an 80x payout, then this becomes a super-high variance game you can theoretically get a long way ahead on (and 150 losses in a row would be pretty unlucky, but not that unlucky). But that's not a risk I'd be willing to take, not at these odds. And the 100 ticket version is definitely just a money pit.

View attachment 68324
I welcome any input that you may have for me. And I will stop playing this game. Thank you for proving to me in numbers as to why I REALLY REALLY should not play. Im new here obviously and hope to learn more. Thank you
 

gambyx7

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Location
Europe
Adventure Palace - 23 (fresh now)...

Plus - there is nothing to see :) Maybe it woluld be nice that we see only winning combos :)

2152rb.jpg


BDBA - 25
 

luringenersmart

Banned User - multiple accounts
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Location
Neverland
Had over 50 on joker millions. Two times actually.. I even contacted riggdrasil about it.. They to seamed interested to know at what casino this happened.
 

Jazzbaz

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Location
Finland
I am pretty sure my recent play of Pyramid has yielded a new personal record of consequetive dead spins, but I didn't actually keep count of that. And so have to go with the old record of 45 in.... Starburst.

Yes, despite of the typical high variance monsters like reel steal, raping rhino etc. regularly handing out 25+ dead spins, Starburst still holds the crown.
 

Vicky

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Location
Australia
That was a pretty awesome experienced. So much just to kill time and enjoying life for money :)

Not so awesome because as every one here - I prefer to win, but I know that there is no gambling without such losing streaks. So I'm not complaining :D
 

asm

Experienced Member
PABinit
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Location
Finland
Pretty sure that in Space Wars, I've had over 50 dead spins. Then again, that game is dead spin city it seems, I think I've had two winning sessions in total from that money sucking vortex. Same with DOA which I'd guess would be around the 50 range, but at least that is offset by the occasional huge win.

Some NETENT games like (un)lucky angler also seem to give out high streaks of absolute zero.
 

nikantw

Banned User
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Location
EU
Sunday, not so long ago, I was at that “party” chasing that brunet with the red bikini all day, but never managed to get her! :oops:

More than 30 spins without any win, quite a few times. The worst part was that even the free spins would only pay less than 10x all day long!!:eek:
 
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