How Many Online Casinos Cheat?

[pokeraddict]

Thodo, where were you when the whole Absolute Poker cheating thing exploded? It seemed right up your alley.

 

[ThodorisK]

I am reading this thread now. Hey, you changed your mind? A casino has indeed interest in cheating poker players?

 

[ThodorisK]

Just to concentrate the facts in this thread, I copy here the facts which I posted in the thread about VC:

wagered= 9100$
hands=7483
averege bet=1.216$
(most of the bets were 1$, very rarely 2$, and if I remember well, less than 20 times 3$)
profit/loss=-148$

I made only 8 violations of basic strategy (by mistake), 2 of which prooved to be a better choice than basic strategy. I think the cost of these violations is not greater than 0-2$.

The lowest point my bankroll reached (the greatest loss I met) during this wagering, was at hand No 6696, where the stats were:

wagered=8150$
hands=6696
average bet=1.217$
profit/loss=-220.5$

 

[cyprean]

Game fairness does not equal to casino fairness

Cliff Notes: Game fairness does not equal to casino fairness


Royal Vegas casino (Fortune Lounge group member) uses a Microgaming software which is viewed to be very fair. However even though the games are fair, there are always room for the casino to steal the winnings at a later stage.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...onfiscated-8000-euros-fraudulent-claim.20552/

 

[kengam]

I haven't read through this whole thread but search out English Harbour and Odds on software and you will see that casinos can and do cheat. The management here defended them until the end, but have we ever seen the double up variation that they were trying to have us believe was in the works?


Here is a link to the epic and locked thread
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...proof-that-english-harbour-is-cheating.12185/

 

[ThodorisK]

Check out my new posts where I have refined my arguments, as well as a strange incedent at the beginning:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[ThodorisK]

Hm, it doesnt open, here it is again:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[Casinomeister]

Jeeze within minutes of your suspension being lifted (for being a troll), you post not only one URL to a thread at another site but FOUR to the same thread.

That's totally uncool. You should school yourself on how to behave in a forum community and then come back. Bone up on forum etiquette and quit being such a damn troll - maybe people will start listening to you.

I thought you actually were going to participate here in a normal manner - guess I asked too much

60 day suspension for being mega-annoying. If the members want you to come on back, they can PM me and I'll consider it. But for now - bye.

 

[SnowKatt]

I'm so glad I don't play cards. I really suck at cards.... On the down side, I'm at the mercy of slot percentages, in which case I rarely know what they even are... lol

 

[Dominka]

I wanted to have some fun and play online blackjack a little today.

I ended up playing more than I thought I would, although it was fun (here and there, heh ).

Can any mathematicians check out these numbers for me.
It should be simple number crunching. But I'm an architect, and not a statistician.

5200 eur wagered. avg bet 4.15. I wanted to bet consistently and raise whenever I win a couple. But that happened very, very rarely so those hands didn't play much of a role.
1250 hands, 1400 bets. I know all about the strat which minimizes the house edge very closely to even bets, and apart from a misclick or two it was all played perfectly. I was hoping for a possible gain with a little luck.
But the end result is a loss of over 300 eur.
What are the odds for that?


Dominka

 

[debbiek]

I was playing at lasvegas usa casino tonight. I noticed a dramatic increase in losses as soon as bet size increased to $5/spin. It's just so obvious, that you feel the casino software is cheating. You eventually lose because they don't want to take the chance of paying out any kind of substantial win. i don't even think $5/spin is alot.

Are these casinos that underfunded that they have the software altered as soon as bet size increases? I truly believe they do this as the losing pattern is steady right after you increase bet. I have played at all the mainstreet casinos many times now and have never won anything really big. i also don't feel there is a possibility because of how their software "behaves" when taking a bigger chance. It's really bad business because the bigger wins would be great advertising for them, but they don't see that.

 

[Simmo!]

I was playing at lasvegas usa casino tonight. I noticed a dramatic increase in losses as soon as bet size increased to $5/spin. It's just so obvious, that you feel the casino software is cheating. You eventually lose because they don't want to take the chance of paying out any kind of substantial win. i don't even think $5/spin is alot.

Are these casinos that underfunded that they have the software altered as soon as bet size increases? I truly believe they do this as the losing pattern is steady right after you increase bet. I have played at all the mainstreet casinos many times now and have never won anything really big. i also don't feel there is a possibility because of how their software "behaves" when taking a bigger chance. It's really bad business because the bigger wins would be great advertising for them, but they don't see that.

Las Vegas USA is RTG right? If I remember right, an operator who wants to change the percentages (apparently there are three options 93%, 95% and 98% I think it was) has to apply to RTG with a good reason for the shift and it can take up to 6 months for RTG to authorise & implement it, while I was also told that the selected % applies across the board to all slots (at least the Real Series ones anyway) in that licenced version of the software.

Second-hand (ex-employee) info from a little while back, but just throwing it into the pot.

 

[steinhaug]

i also don't feel there is a possibility because of how their software "behaves" when taking a bigger chance. It's really bad business because the bigger wins would be great advertising for them, but they don't see that.

Im with you bro, but isn't it strange that some of us are so sure of this while some other people for some reason 100% belive we just have bad luck all the time? (Except when in a landbased casino, I just never win in BJ online - And no - I don't do more hands online!)

This argument is getting old. In my opinion people want to be disillusioned! People accually enjoy bending over and taking it, for some strange reason I cannot understand.

The smarterst thing one can do is:
a) stop wagering in a MG casino after a good win, you'll never get ahead again
b) quit online gambling all together.

Sure, this only applies for high rolling. Low rolling seems to be working, if you want to waste a year with hours for ending +-$500 which is funny money in the end! (Look at the lost working hours...) Who accually enjoys spinning $0.20 anyway... Yeyy... I won $40, hurray! This is not where you see the "patterns" emerging in the gameplay (where you end up loooosing).

Have a good one I say,

 

[classymom]

Im with you bro, but isn't it strange that some of us are so sure of this while some other people for some reason 100% belive we just have bad luck all the time? (Except when in a landbased casino, I just never win in BJ online - And no - I don't do more hands online!)

This argument is getting old. In my opinion people want to be disillusioned! People accually enjoy bending over and taking it, for some strange reason I cannot understand.

The smarterst thing one can do is:
a) stop wagering in a MG casino after a good win, you'll never get ahead again
b) quit online gambling all together.

Sure, this only applies for high rolling. Low rolling seems to be working, if you want to waste a year with hours for ending +-$500 which is funny money in the end! (Look at the lost working hours...) Who accually enjoys spinning $0.20 anyway... Yeyy... I won $40, hurray! This is not where you see the "patterns" emerging in the gameplay (where you end up loooosing).

Have a good one I say,

I enjoy spinning .20 and I will yell Yeyy when I win 40.00 I was one of those people when I lived in Las Vegas who was disgusted when someone screamed when they won the jackpot on a nickel machine for 20.00 bucks. But as I have now realized if you gamble for the fun of it - its a good thing if you plan on getting rich - you may be in trouble - just my opinion

 

[dendrite]

It's clear to me that online casinos still have a long way to go in improving the regulation within the industry.

I'm not too sure that many casinos cheat players, it just feels that way sometimes. However, improvements in regulation are definitely needed - not only for the protection of players, but the industry as a whole needs it. Online casinos should be just as highly regulated as land-based casinos imo.

my ranting bit:

Long term, I think that the online casino industry needs to be moving towards being seen as an entertainment. A way to spend money that gives entertainment, just like theatre or cinema. Getting away from the way that casinos sell gambling as a way to make money would help players and the industry move forward. It may even result in US players being able to play online again.

I do have a question, though:

What regulation would you introduce?

With respect to slots, I feel that it's essential that all games have their payback stats clearly stated on each game, just as the pay tables are found on slots, there should be a button to look at the payback percentage.

All credit to Wagerworks for doing this and making it relatively easy to find the payback for each of their slots.

I wonder if it is possible or useful to go a bit further than just payback and get together a formal definition of slot variance and display this clearly for each slot too? Maybe it would be useful for players to know how much entertainment time (or spins) they should expect to get from any particular slot? Many players don't even know what variance is, but it makes a huge difference to how a slot plays and different people look for different variance in a slot.


off-topic:
Recently, I've been looking at some of the developments coming through and one idea (from Cyberview) is time-based gaming where a player pays for a certain amount of time on the machine and so knows how much entertainment they are going to get for their money. Having spoken to the company, I know that the patents for this type of play have been an important factor in why IGT have made a move to buy Cyberview up. Just as important as their server-based gaming patents. I wonder if we will start to see this sort of thing online soon?

 

[Jufo]

Can it be proven?

Im with you bro, but isn't it strange that some of us are so sure of this while some other people for some reason 100% belive we just have bad luck all the time? (Except when in a landbased casino, I just never win in BJ online - And no - I don't do more hands online!)

This argument is getting old. In my opinion people want to be disillusioned! People accually enjoy bending over and taking it, for some strange reason I cannot understand.

The smarterst thing one can do is:
a) stop wagering in a MG casino after a good win, you'll never get ahead again
b) quit online gambling all together.

Sure, this only applies for high rolling. Low rolling seems to be working, if you want to waste a year with hours for ending +-$500 which is funny money in the end! (Look at the lost working hours...) Who accually enjoys spinning $0.20 anyway... Yeyy... I won $40, hurray! This is not where you see the "patterns" emerging in the gameplay (where you end up loooosing).

Have a good one I say,

I have had similar experiences and observed some patterns too even though I haven't always lost. However there is a fundamental problem that it is human nature to observe patterns even when they don't really exist. Like a smiley face on the surface of the moon, who put it there!

I have been thinking that the streakiness and bad runs are the "nature of blackjack" and not so much on-line software. Still I constantly run in to results, which, according to calculations, should have 1:500 to 1:2000 chance of happening. A result with 1:2000 chance can happen of course and will eventually happen, but the problem is the frequency these kind of results occur.

So my question is:

If there are patterns and worsened odds with higher bets, can this be proven with enough data? And why has no-one been able to give any proof so far?

I have generated lot of data from my on-line play but one problem is that I can only access last 20 days of play history without asking MG to send my older play data. But if there really are patterns, then surely we could all make a group effort to expose them. If it turns out this "bad luck" is just statistical variance, then we at least know that these claims are without basis. But if it is possible to find something, then maybe it could be a new "English Harbour" case?
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...proof-that-english-harbour-is-cheating.12185/

I think that over long run the BJ payout % is very close to theoretical. But if there is any artificial streakiness added (including all those winning streaks!), then that is the same thing as cheating, simple as that.

 

[Jufo]

Other ways to implement casino house edge

Recently, I've been looking at some of the developments coming through and one idea (from Cyberview) is time-based gaming where a player pays for a certain amount of time on the machine and so knows how much entertainment they are going to get for their money. Having spoken to the company, I know that the patents for this type of play have been an important factor in why IGT have made a move to buy Cyberview up. Just as important as their server-based gaming patents. I wonder if we will start to see this sort of thing online soon?

I think that the way Casinos generate their profits by offering negative value games is unfair to players because players get punished by the more they play. You can win by playing only 10 hands/spins, but you have extremely small chance of winning by playing 100 000 hands/spins. The house edge is what always brings you down in the end.

That's why I would like to see a different scenario: A Casino offering 0% house edge games and charging an entry fee or monthly membership fee instead. For example you deposit 100$ and 5$ would be charged as "commission" but then you would have 95$ to play all games with no house edge at all! Or perhaps there would be 5% commission only when you win and do a cash out. There is Betfair Zero Lounge already but I would like to see a whole casino where no games have house edge but you pay a small fee to enter. What do you think of this idea?

 

[winbig]

There is Betfair Zero Lounge already but I would like to see a whole casino where no games have house edge but you pay a small fee to enter. What do you think of this idea?

It'll never fly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only reason Betfair has a Zero Lounge is because they make most of their money from the sportsbook?

 

[Simmo!]

Recently, I've been looking at some of the developments coming through and one idea (from Cyberview) is time-based gaming where a player pays for a certain amount of time on the machine

Actually you can kinda do a similar thing with Wagerworks. Each member can set their own limits using different criteria (max deposits, losses etc). One of those is to set a max. wagering amount per day or week. So you could set a max of say $1,000 and then spin at $5 so you know that you have 200 spins.

I do this at Virgin and it works - sometimes you are down, sometimes up, but it's harder to chase losses and quite often you see a profit as you are forced to stop. Not quite "time based" but close.

 

[joeypbg]

from kimss
Im with you bro, but isn't it strange that some of us are so sure of this while some other people for some reason 100% belive we just have bad luck all the time? (Except when in a landbased casino, I just never win in BJ online - And no - I don't do more hands online!)

This argument is getting old. In my opinion people want to be disillusioned! People accually enjoy bending over and taking it, for some strange reason I cannot understand.

From Jufo
So my question is:

If there are patterns and worsened odds with higher bets, can this be proven with enough data? And why has no-one been able to give any proof so far?

I have been playing online baccarat and have been using a system that i designed. I found it quite effective. I do not try to figure out if the machine is fair or not. For example in baccarat i have what i call a 1 win 1 lose run. This is a run wherein i bet on a hand and i win. then the next hand i bet and for sure i will lose. It doesnt matter where i bet i WILL lose. So i lower my bet on that hand to the minimum bet. next hand i will bet big again. then lower my bet to the minimum on the next hand. If however i win with that hand that i bet minimum on, I will bet minimum again because a 100percent you will lose on the next hand. You will encounter this type of run for sure as you play.

If you are asking me whether the casinos cheat or not I think you can figure it out for yourself.

_________________________________
if it's skewed then you're screwed! unless ....

 

[winbig]

I assume you retired from Baccarat? Not by winning, but by selling your "system"?

Now is your chance to learn the necessary skill set to win and win consistently at Baccarat. Su Eng betting System will teach you how. For 199 dollars US or peso equivalent you get the book and inside the book are the methodologies and tools you need to do this. So Order Now!

 

[joeypbg]

heh heh .not really. just been sharing info with a few guys. i still love playing the game. i don't really know how to market this as well as i should.

 

[debbiek]

"This is a run wherein i bet on a hand and i win. then the next hand i bet and for sure i will lose. It doesnt matter where i bet i WILL lose"

That's interesting you say that because I have noticed about 99% of the time when playing slots, that if you win something over your original wager, the next spin you will definitely lose. Sometimes it may be a small amount, but it general, you can take it to the bank it WIll lose. I used to lower the wager on the next spin because that was the smart thing to do, but sometimes I let the original bet ride.

I've also noticed that with the slots, if you win let's say $50, it will take it back the next 5-10 spins, very rarely gets on a roll. If the play was truly random, wouldn't this happen some of the time? It's extremely hard to find a "hot slot" online, but i've definitely seen this on land.

 

[joeypbg]

i have actually seen this pattern on most of the games. If you noticed in my post I never even mention whether to bet on player or banker ( what baccarat choices are supposed to be). Personally i see this as designed to beat those that are for example chasing their loses and have a tendency to double up after winning a hand.


______________________________________
if it's screwed then you're screwed! unless ....

 

[debbiek]

I definitely think the Main Street Group of casinos should currently be under investigation for unfair play. I've played at every one of their casinos in the last 2 days and they're payout is way under 70%. I sent a letter to their security telling them to close every one of my accounts.

Not one of the sessions were fair and they don't deserve any future business. That coupled with their slow payouts (one month), makes them a terrible choice for depositing. I just can't believe that this group is accredited and what's worse, people only play there because there's very little choice.