House Edge at Paigow poker for Odds On Casinos

gaming_mouse

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Odds On (or Vegas Technology) casinos like Millionaire, English Harbour, etc. have a new paigow poker game, which is not discussed on the OddsOn page at wizardofodds.

The game is played using the standard 5% commission.

1. Is the house edge here the same as the house edge discussed on
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?

2. If not, how do you calculate it?

3. Is using the house way the optimal strategy here, or at least close to optimal?

Thanks,
Jonah
 

dickens1298

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LA, California
Since this is basically an even money proposition without the commission, the 5% commission IS the house edge.

Put another way - I bet you a dollar for flipping a quarter. You lose a dollar if it comes up heads, but you win 95 cents if it comes up tails.

My friends generally like to play Pai Gow in Vegas, because then they can bet table minimums and drink all night long. :)
 

gaming_mouse

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Location
LA
dickens1298 said:
Since this is basically an even money proposition without the commission, the 5% commission IS the house edge.

Put another way - I bet you a dollar for flipping a quarter. You lose a dollar if it comes up heads, but you win 95 cents if it comes up tails.

My friends generally like to play Pai Gow in Vegas, because then they can bet table minimums and drink all night long. :)

Dickens,

This is incorrect. House edge for PGP is typically 2.73% when the player is always forced to be player, as opposed to banker.

Basically, the reason is that about 40% of hands tie, in which case no commission is paid.
 

tennis_balls

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Location
Albuquerque, NM
i clicked "house way" on this one and look what they suggested: :eek: :eek: :what: :what: :eek:

their "house way" seemed ok other than on this hand

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thetic

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Aug 10, 2006
Location
Scotland
This one is even worse than their suggestions over what should be house way!

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Fairly certain that Jacks are not wild so dealer does not have a flush straight and so my Queen kicker should win???

Have forwarded this to the Casino to check into but still no acknowledgement of my email or response!

Apologies for the Unregistered across the screen. My Print Screen button is not working so had to go download some software when this hand came up!
 

KasinoKing

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Their "house way" seemed ok other than on this hand
I believe 'best strategy' is to keep low pairs together if you have a King or an Ace for the low hand - but Jack high... :eek:

Fairly certain that Jacks are not wild so dealer does not have a flush straight and so my Queen kicker should win??!
That is definitely way out of order! :what:
 

thetic

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Scotland
I have now received a response from the Casino and they have advised that the low hand wins in a flush.

If anyone has any experience or more knowledge of Pai Gow (looked at Wizard of Odds and saw no mention of the low flush winning) that can shed some light on it, it would be appreciated.

Not too concerned as it should balance itself out with getting "worse" flushes than dealer in long run, was just worried some bug in the system that had not been picked up on.

EDIT: Found one of the Wizards' appendices that shows probability of a flush getting beaten gets lower the higher the kicker is so must be Golden Casino have a different set of rules on this. I am aware that many games have different variations from casino to casino but certainly would like to know if anyone has heard of this one before...
 
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aka23

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Jun 11, 2006
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Planet Earth
I have now received a response from the Casino and they have advised that the low hand wins in a flush.

If anyone has any experience or more knowledge of Pai Gow (looked at Wizard of Odds and saw no mention of the low flush winning) that can shed some light on it, it would be appreciated.

Not too concerned as it should balance itself out with getting "worse" flushes than dealer in long run, was just worried some bug in the system that had not been picked up on.

EDIT: Found one of the Wizards' appendices that shows probability of a flush getting beaten gets lower the higher the kicker is so must be Golden Casino have a different set of rules on this. I am aware that many games have different variations from casino to casino but certainly would like to know if anyone has heard of this one before...
I think Golden Casino support is making stuff up to justify their game. Standard poker rankings are used aside from A-2-3-4-5 being the second highest ranking straight. I'd stay away from Odds On Pai Gow.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Having played Pai Gow Poker since its creation, I can 100% guarantee that the low hand does NOT win in a flush, and never has. That is absolute BS.

Other than the addition of bonus features to Pai Gow Poker, the only change that has ever been made is to allow the Joker to count as an Ace (the original version only allowed the joker to be used in straights and flushes).

As for house way - there are many different variations depending on the house's preferred strategy. I can't tell which variation is being used here by the casino, but sure as hell I would personally have put the pair of 5s up front instead of J 10.

BTW, the Wiz himself suggests the following:

Low pair and low pair: Split unless holding a king or better.

http://wizardofodds.com/paigow/paigowapx2.html

The Flamingo Hilton, however, uses this house way:

Two pair: Split the two pair except for the following three situations
Both pairs are 6's or less. ....


http://wizardofodds.com/paigow/paigowhw3.html

The Golden Nugget also keeps two pair in the back unless at least one pair is 7s or higher.
 
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bpb

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2 notes

1) Low flushes don't beat high flushes in any game using poker hand rankings that I've ever seen. The only "unusual" Pai Gow rule is that A-2-3-4-5 is the 2nd best straight (A-K-Q-J-T being the best). They have a bug in their software. Pester support until they acknowledge this, refund your wager, and apologize.

2) The house edge in Pai Gow comes not only from the 5% commission on wins, but also from the fact that the dealer wins ties (copies) on either hand. While the 5-card hand doesn't copy often, the 2-card hand copies far more frequently. Even if there was no commission, there would be a significant house advantage. In fact, even if the house paid you an extra 2% on each of yours wins, there would still be a house edge on this game.

If I ran a B&M casino, I'd almost certainly run a promotion on occasion offering a 2% "bonus" on wins rather than taking a 5% commission. The increased action from gamblers assuming they had an edge would almost certainly make up for the lower house advantage.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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Location
Heaven
The only "unusual" Pai Gow rule is that A-2-3-4-5 is the 2nd best straight (A-K-Q-J-T being the best).

Good point, forgot to mention what you said above (because I automatically consider A-5 a high straight/straight flush). A deuce is the *lowest* single card in Pai Gow Poker under *all* circumstances. An Ace is the *highest* single card in under *all* circumstances.
 

thetic

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Scotland
2 notes

1) Low flushes don't beat high flushes in any game using poker hand rankings that I've ever seen. The only "unusual" Pai Gow rule is that A-2-3-4-5 is the 2nd best straight (A-K-Q-J-T being the best). They have a bug in their software. Pester support until they acknowledge this, refund your wager, and apologize.

Cheers, I'm on the case...
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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Location
Heaven
I thought suit always comes before card value.

Suit plays no role in determining value of hand. A-J-9-5-2 in spades, for example, is exactly the same as A-J-9-5-2 in diamonds. The only thing that would distinguish between these two hands are the rules, which state that the banker (usually the house) wins ties.

This is the very reason why a player should opt to be banker on as many occasions as possible if the house offers this opportunity.
 

tennis_balls

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here's a hand I had with Rival software today. I was quite surprised (pleasantly in this case) by the way the house formed its hand.

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tennis_balls

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Albuquerque, NM
another hand at Rival

this was the "house way".........no thank you

i do feel the pai gow was completely fair at Rival (even if the house way is screwy)

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thetic

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Location
Scotland
Apologies in advance for the length of the post.

Following earlier post I have been chasing with Golden Casino about the low flush beating the high flush in Pai Gow. Didn't want to post here until now as waiting on a very healthy payment from them and didn't want to upset them too much!

In short the casino said 1st thet low flush beats high flush hence the loss on the high hand but seemed to change their tune halfway through and say that flushes were not ranked and therefore the high hand was a PUSH (would still have been a loss overall). However I pointed out that the high hand should have said PUSH rather than LOSS as it did in the screenshot. To prove this I went back in to play some more and on very 1st hand managed to get a screenshot showing PUSH which I forwarded to them as further evidence!

Before you read I must clarify that found the gaming to be very fair and only problem I had was this one "glitch" over a $5 wager!

The following is correspodence that has gone back and fore and still have not got a response to my actual query.

Apologies again for the length.

Dear Stephen,

This is my last email on the matter and I will let it rest after this but I do not believe I have had a satisfactory response yet.

A tie is not a loss, a tie is a tie. If the other hand had been won then this would have been a push and my stake would have been returned. It would make sense to show it as a tie and still the overall result is a loss on the hand. I have resent the screenshot I took which shows that it is not just win/loss that is shown for the high/low hands but PUSH comes up also!!

This is still going on the basis that you do not rank flushes and therefore the high hand was a tie between dealer and player. I have never heard of this rule before in any form of poker. Is it just flushes this applies to or do High hands, Pairs, Two Pairs, Three of a Kinds etc. result in ties when both dealer and player get them? The initial response I got was that the flush with the lowest "traditional" ranking won the hand but you then shifted to saying that flushes tied!

I really can not believe that you are trying to justify this one in the manner you have done.

I would however like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries (although not answer them) and I would appreciate your final comments on the above. NOTE: I HAVE NOT RECEIVED THESE 1 WEEK ON

Thanks once again.

Best regards,
Graeme Stuart.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]"

Dear Graeme,

Thanks for contacting us. OK, , because it was tie. Which , according to the rules, is a loss, it was recorded as a loss.

Regards,

Stephen
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Dear Stephen,

You do not seem to understand my query. I understand that the Dealer wins the Tie, however when a hand is tied it shows on the screen as a tie rather than both hands losing as is on screenshot. If what you say happened did happen I would expect to see push on high hand, loss on low hand and I would lose the hand overall!!

I am a little exasperated because I do not think this has fully been checked, more that someone is looking for answers to justify it without checking.

Regards,
Graeme.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]"

Dear Graeme,

Since the flushes are not ranked and therefore , its a tie with the house's flush, Dealer wins all ties, you lost high hand to a tie. You lost the 2nd highest hand to A, Q combo. You lost both hands to the house. No push

Regards,
Stephen
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Dear Stephen,

To make the low hand as strong as possible. If you have a flush in Pai Gow, house way is you take the strongest cards to make up the low hand if you have more than 5 suited cards in your hand.

This explanation still does not explain why it showed that the high hand lost rather than tied/pushed.

Kind regards,
Graeme.

----- Original Message ----

Dear Graeme,

Why would house take the queen of spades off the flush, therefore lowering the value of the high hand if that wasn't the case.

Regards,
Stephen
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Still not satisfied, surely if this was the case it would have low hand loses, high hand pushes/ties and the overall result would be a loss. As you can see it shows both hands as losses so it is ranking the hands!

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

Dear Graeme,

Thank you for contacting us. After extensive research on this subject, it's been determine that the flushes are NOT ranked, and as such, it treated as a tie if the dealer has a flush as well and the dealer wins all ties. Think of it this way. If you had say, 7 clubs and selected the house way, the computer will automatically take the 2 highest cards and place them in the 2nd hand.

Regards,
Stephen
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Thanks Hector,

I truly appreciate your patience with me but I don't think that this answers my query yet! Apologies if this was not clear (reading back through the previous correspondence I haven't clarified it so can understand where the confusion has come in).

I was expecting to draw the hand not win it. I lost the 2-card hand but i thought I had won the 5-card hand as my flush had a queen kicker against the dealer's j kicker! Therefore should have won the high hand and lost the low hand which results in a push??

Kind regards,
Graeme.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]"

Dear Graeme,

Pai Gow Poker

Pai Gow Poker combines elements of the ancient Chinese game of Pai Gow and the American game of poker. It is played with a traditional deck of 52 playing cards plus one joker The joker is used only as an Ace, or to complete a straight, a flush, or a straight flush.

The dealer starts the game by rolling three dice. The total of the dice determines which player receives the first set of cards. Each player receives seven cards and creates two hands simultaneously: a high hand and second high hand. The players high hand is made up of two cards. Both hands must be higher than the bank hands to win. If one hand is higher and the other is lower, it is a tie. IF both of the players hands are lower than the banks hands, the player loses.

Pai Gow Poker is essentially playing two separate poker hands according to traditional poker rankings. The house dealer will explain the ranks and assist you in arranging your hands, but is not responsible for wins or losses.

Payoffs are even money, and the house collects a 5% commission on all winning wagers.

Hope this one will do.

Regards,
Hector Eloy
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Hello,

I have had a look at the 2 websites and also your rules and I can not see any mention in any of these that a flush wins with the lowest kicker in it unlike normal poker.

Can you point me to exactly where this is stated?

Thanks & regards,
Graeme.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]"

Dear Player,

You can check the following web sites:

Old / Expired Link

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Also you can go and see it in our software by going into a game and selecting

Help in the upper right corner it will pop up.

Regards,
Hector Eloy
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Hello,

Can you point me towards any rules you have for the Pai Gow as I have done some more research and it seems this is an unusual interpretation of the Pai Gow rules and can't come across any other place where low flush wins over high flush

I was pointing it out as much to let you know there may be a bug in your software so would appreciate it if you can confirm the games rules and point me in their direction.

Kind regards,
Graeme Stuart.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]"

Dear Graeme Stuart,

Thank you for contacting us I have completed a review of the hand play that you provided. Unfortunately, When there is a flush, low win the hand, So, the 2,4,5,6, J will win.

Regards,
Stephen
Customer Care

Golden Palace

----- Original Message -----

Hello,

Have signed up with casino and started playing today (and having fun!).

However, the last hand I played in my last session I got a flush and so did the dealer. However I think I have a better kicker than the dealer. Seems to be a possible glitch in the system. I have attached a copy of a screenshot and I will not play again until you check so you can easily track the hand by looking at my last one!

Can you check into this and let me know what you find.

Thanks & regards,
Graeme Stuart
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Ridiculous. Flushes are always ordered by rank of cards. There is absolutely no justification for their claim.

Let me call the attention of the software provider to this thread. Obviously GP's support has no clue as to the rules of Pai Gow Poker, and perhaps other games as well.
 
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