Casino Complaint HofmannEs VS Fortune Room Casino

HofmannEs

Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Location
Essen
A private message was sent to Fortune Lounge rep at 03:25 PM 20th September 2013, still no response, still no reason to make a PAB yet.
Please stop making stories
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
A private message was sent to Fortune Lounge rep at 03:25 PM 20th September 2013, still no response, still no reason to make a PAB yet.
Please stop making stories

They don't visit the forum 7/24 so please be patient. FL is one of the better MG casino groups and unless fraud is involved they usually do the right thing. Anyway, stop making enemies of members here. Nobody is making up stories against you but similarly, out of mutual respect, you shouldn't be firing accusations at others. Most of us wont be pampering you. We just want both the player and casino to be treated fairly and we wont take your word for everything.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
I remember the times when it was allowed to discuss the issues on the forum and making the PAB at the same time. ... Suddenly everybody become fraudsters?

You're always welcome to contact Bryan if you have requests for changes to the PAB process, or you could post it in the Link Outdated / Removed forum. Either option would certainly be more constructive than a random grumble buried away in someone else's thread.

Insofar a fraud goes perhaps you need to spend a little time looking through the PAB Archives. You will see that:
  1. fraud cases have always been part of the overall PAB statistics.
  2. fraud cases have become more common over the years -- a fairly steady increase -- largely due to better detection methods on the casino side.
  3. certainly not "everybody" is a fraudster. Again, look at the archives. Fraud is around 30%, give or take.

Finally, don't be a troll. If you think we're such shite then go elsewhere and be happy there. Taking shots at us by sprinkling your dirt around the forums is not constructive.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I also remember the time when Bryan had to tighten up the rules about discussing ongoing PABs because operators began to feel the procedure wasn't fair on them, and it also entrenched positions on both sides making a resolution more difficult.

Gambling Grumbles tends to allow more in the way of discussion during their own mediation procedures, and they often have different outcomes to a PAB. There are operators that are willing to work with Gambling Grumbles, but not CM, and vice versa. Fortune Lounge however IS willing to work with CM.

It would seem that other sites have Fortune Lounge on their warning lists or black lists, yet Beating Bonuses have a number of threads on how to "do" the boni there, despite classing them as "high risk". Many members there bear a grudge because FL are particularly adept at catching them out, and it seems they view "gnoming" as acceptable advantage play, whereas here it is viewed as "crossing the line" that divides advantage play from fraud.

Someone over at BB even said one of their multi accounters went so far as to set up his own notary office in order to get around the increasing trend for requesting notarised documents. I can't quite figure this out as surely one needs to be properly qualified and vetted to be listed as a notary and perform these duties to the satisfaction of those relying on the service to authenticate high value business transactions.

If a rep does not reply to their PM after a reasonable time, then a PAB can still go ahead. When the form has been completed and given the OK by Max, it is sent to the rep, and Max then takes care of managing this side of communications.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I also remember the time when Bryan had to tighten up the rules about discussing ongoing PABs because operators began to feel the procedure wasn't fair on them, and it also entrenched positions on both sides making a resolution more difficult.

Gambling Grumbles tends to allow more in the way of discussion during their own mediation procedures, and they often have different outcomes to a PAB. There are operators that are willing to work with Gambling Grumbles, but not CM, and vice versa. Fortune Lounge however IS willing to work with CM.

It would seem that other sites have Fortune Lounge on their warning lists or black lists, yet Beating Bonuses have a number of threads on how to "do" the boni there, despite classing them as "high risk". Many members there bear a grudge because FL are particularly adept at catching them out, and it seems they view "gnoming" as acceptable advantage play, whereas here it is viewed as "crossing the line" that divides advantage play from fraud.

Someone over at BB even said one of their multi accounters went so far as to set up his own notary office in order to get around the increasing trend for requesting notarised documents. I can't quite figure this out as surely one needs to be properly qualified and vetted to be listed as a notary and perform these duties to the satisfaction of those relying on the service to authenticate high value business transactions.

If a rep does not reply to their PM after a reasonable time, then a PAB can still go ahead. When the form has been completed and given the OK by Max, it is sent to the rep, and Max then takes care of managing this side of communications.

Very good post Vinyl :thumbsup:

If the bolded statement above doesn't convince the doubters, then I don't know what will.
 

MisterBJ

Account suspended until further notice - please co
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Location
Atlanta
I don't know why this is even an issue, to keep pressing the OP to file a PAB. We already know the outcome of this. The end results is only going to make some us deposit at Fortune Room even more. LOL
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Very good post Vinyl :thumbsup:

If the bolded statement above doesn't convince the doubters, then I don't know what will.

This is what surprised me the most. I came close in suggesting the possibility of a "corrupt notary", but thought that they would still have had to have entered the profession after having undergone a whole raft of checks. If it really is possible for some ordinary person to just set themselves up as a notary, then the whole concept of requesting notarised documents from suspect players could be dead in the water. The determined fraudsters would have already thought of this and have their own "in ring notary" ready and waiting to notarise the output of whatever Adobe product the multi accounter chose to use.

This makes me think again about that earlier case where even notarised documents were dismissed by the casino from a player with a username reminiscent of the Wimbledon Ladies final when I was a young teen. A legit notary by all accounts, seemingly checking out, but was this the notary to which the BB member was referring?

If this is all in the BB public forum, God knows what they are discussing in the private one. Their mods appear to be asleep at the wheel, as anyone, including the FL rep, can take a wander over there and read all of this.

Getting into the BB private forum seems just a case of signing up at 10 of the casinos promoted there, and "doing the boni", and then asking to be let in after a few useful posts. I understand that the REAL dark stuff isn't there either, but it seems that a slip up by a member, just as in the public forum, might leave a clue as to the next method the multi accounters are up to.
 

bsilva028

Banned : multi-account fraudster
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
portugal
This is what surprised me the most. I came close in suggesting the possibility of a "corrupt notary", but thought that they would still have had to have entered the profession after having undergone a whole raft of checks. If it really is possible for some ordinary person to just set themselves up as a notary, then the whole concept of requesting notarised documents from suspect players could be dead in the water. The determined fraudsters would have already thought of this and have their own "in ring notary" ready and waiting to notarise the output of whatever Adobe product the multi accounter chose to use.

This makes me think again about that earlier case where even notarised documents were dismissed by the casino from a player with a username reminiscent of the Wimbledon Ladies final when I was a young teen. A legit notary by all accounts, seemingly checking out, but was this the notary to which the BB member was referring?

If this is all in the BB public forum, God knows what they are discussing in the private one. Their mods appear to be asleep at the wheel, as anyone, including the FL rep, can take a wander over there and read all of this.

Getting into the BB private forum seems just a case of signing up at 10 of the casinos promoted there, and "doing the boni", and then asking to be let in after a few useful posts. I understand that the REAL dark stuff isn't there either, but it seems that a slip up by a member, just as in the public forum, might leave a clue as to the next method the multi accounters are up to.


vinyl
sorry for my ignorance but
what means the "BB"?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Becoming a Notary Public in the UK

I have found this guide on the internet, an excerpt from a Notaries own site in answer to a number of queries received from those whishing to become one.

The overwhelming majority of Notaries Public are qualified solicitors or legal practitioners. A Notary Public in London, or elsewhere in England and Wales for that matter, must first complete the Postgraduate Diploma in Notarial Practice.

To the best of our knowledge, the only place offering such a Notary diploma is Cambridge University. The course is conducted as distance learning via the internet and with group teaching sessions at Madingley Hall in Cambridge. It lasts for a two year period, and is open to solicitors and barristers in general private practice, and to those with a recent qualifying law degree and Legal Practice Certificate. All Applicants should hold an up to date and complete Certificate of Exemption obtainable from the Faculty Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

There are three core subject areas to study. The area is Roman law, which is covered in year one, along with Private International Law.

Notarial Practice forms the basis for the second year of study.

There are written assignments of 2,000 words for both Roman Law and Private International Law, followed by an examination, and three assignments for the Notarial practice course of 3,000 words each.

The final assessment stage to become a Notary Public is a two hour written exam held in Cambridge.

Even if you make it past this, there is still a period where the newly admitted notary has to be supervised by an experienced one.

It seems that in the UK at least, the scope to just set up as a genuine notary is seriously limited. This leaves the possibility that setting up as a fake notary is what might be going on. There is, of course, the following list of recognised Notaries Public in England and Wales.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


If a player has had their documents verified by a genuine notary in England or Wales, they should be on this list. Operators should, of course, be using this list, not the contact details supplied by the player, to validate the authenticity of the seal. I would presume that similar lists are available for notaries elsewhere, and as such would be useful for players faced with such a request, as well as operators verifying the seals.
 

gagamel

Professional smurf hunter
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Location
Switzerland
In my opinion some players make a lot of mistakes.
1. I play for the first time online or landbased and I win--> now I always win
2. I play 10 sessions after my win and I lose 9 of them --> the casino let me win and now I`m a junkie and can`t stop
3. After a big win I lose --> Well, if you play slots your RTP is about 95%, that`s normal. If you win (100 --> 1000 or more), that`s not normal, this is called luck. If you lose then it`s an unlucky session. Wrong time and wrong place and your bad luck. But in long term you will always lose in casinos, that`s a fact.
I play for 25 years now and I lost money in the most years . But I don`t play for making money, I play for entertainment, I like it, that`s all.

The problem nowadays are the fraudsters, people who believe to make some money in the gambling industry. These people are the reason why I have to give all the documents to the casino, why I have to play through the bonus for 50 times, why the TaC are so restrictive and so on and on and on.
There are a lot of black casino sheeps around and CM is a good platform to inform the gamblers not to gamble in these casinos.
But in this forum are also a lot of fraudsters, and I saw a statement from Max that 30% of the PAB are from fraudsters. Makes me a little sad for all the members here in the forum, including myself.

Now back to topic: The OP is a german guy who don`t want to make a PAB, because the casino didn`t answered his mail. Well, maybe he has a lot of money to burn or he tried to kid CM or the casino. I can`t find a stagegy in his line of action.

Hope you can understand my writing

Greetings
Sascha:)
 

HofmannEs

Banned User: complaint fraud, Forum Rules violatio
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Location
Essen
Too much excitement here my friends, again, no offence.
I am still waiting rep's private response to me, that it's decisive for making a PAB, Maxd already gaved me free hand on it.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
vinyl
sorry for my ignorance but
what means the "BB"?
I think he means Beating Bonuses - a portal and forum specifically aimed at "advantage players".
Care should be taken by anyone using that site, as they promote a lot of casinos that are rogued here at CM.

KK
 

fortunelounge

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 7, 2003
Location
South Africa
Edit: This is what Gambling Grumbles had to say about FL just 2 months ago:

"We have said it over and over and over again: Stay away from any casino which belongs to the Fortune Lounge Group. It doesn't matter if it is 7Sultans, Vegas Palms, Vegas Towers, Platinum Play, Desert Dollar, Royal Vegas, Poker Time, or Giggle Bingo -- don't play there.

Francisco S of Brighton, England, learned that lesson the hard way. He played at three Fortune Lounge casinos, getting a bonus each time, and winding up losing his deposits. Okay, he had no problem with that, gambling is gambling and you can always lose. What bothers Francisco (and Gambling Grumbles) is that when he played at Vegas Palms he won and it not only refused to give him his winnings but also kept his deposit."

We are quite aware of the comments on Gambling Grumbles.

If you look at all the complaints on Gambling Grumbles they relate to players whose accounts were locked and winnings confiscated. Here on CM members know that we do not just lock accounts and confiscate winnings without very good reason and after extensive investigations. The players complaining in that forums would have been subjected to the very same investigations.

We made a conscious decision (for several reasons) not to participate in the Gambling Grumbles forum.

Regards

Wim
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
We are quite aware of the comments on Gambling Grumbles.

If you look at all the complaints on Gambling Grumbles they relate to players whose accounts were locked and winnings confiscated. Here on CM members know that we do not just lock accounts and confiscate winnings without very good reason and after extensive investigations. The players complaining in that forums would have been subjected to the very same investigations.

We made a conscious decision (for several reasons) not to participate in the Gambling Grumbles forum.

Regards

Wim

From what I read at many forums - you not only confiscate winnings - you also confiscate players' deposits. Tons and tons of players' deposits. And then you refuse to discuss. And you don't discuss anything at this forum too. Look at this thread- you just ignored the OP and his complaint.
 

fortunelounge

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 7, 2003
Location
South Africa
Hi hakapuku

That is quite true. When a player attempts to defraud one of our casinos we will, in most cases confiscate winnings and deposits.

I have not ignored the player or his complaint. I have already responded to his PM and as soon as I have all the facts I will first repond to him via PM and then post in the forum (like I always do)

Regards

Wim
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
From what I read at many forums - you not only confiscate winnings - you also confiscate players' deposits. Tons and tons of players' deposits. And then you refuse to discuss. And you don't discuss anything at this forum too. Look at this thread- you just ignored the OP and his complaint.

This is a far more serious issue, and deposits should always be sent back after bets are voided.

The cases at Gambling Grumbles will have been decided on the players' evidence alone given that the operator in this case does not participate. This, unfortunately, means fraudsters are less likely to get exposed as their evidence cannot be verified against that of the operator, and they are not likely to tell Gambling Grumbles the full story.

Keeping deposits should be very rare, and only where it is impossible to verify the rightful owner of the funds, nor possible to send it back to source, such as with MasterCard and methods like UKash.

Deposits should NEVER be kept when it is merely "advantage play" exploiting a loophole in the terms, and the standards here are that in such cases, the player should be paid and then booted out.

Keeping deposits can open the door to chargebacks by offering a justification for exercising the right with the card company under consumer banking regulations. Once it becomes more acceptable to charge back because a casino has kept the deposit after voiding the bets, it is easier for frauds to pretend that their charge backs are nothing more sinister than exercising the same rights, rather than them charging back all losing deposits and trying to get paid off the winners.

In almost all cases that come here, we see deposits returned at some stage in the proceedings. It's possible that in many of the cases at Gambling Grumbles, the players did eventually get their deposits back, but "forgot" to update Gambling Grumbles about it, hence the report is based on only the initial complaint.

From a quick look at the main forum at BB, I get the impression that Fortune Lounge is over represented, and hence possibly a top target. This would then lead to an unusually high number of cases where players got their bets voided reaching the various fora. Perhaps 8 sister casinos with a welcome bonus at each is what has drawn BB players there in the past.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
I've worked with Wim for several years now on many dozens of PAB cases. In my opinion they are thorough and fair when it comes to their handling of player issues. It is true that FL has a somewhat aggressive policy towards fraudsters but then they're trying to deter such activities and I'd say that the confiscation of deposits is most certainly an effective deterrent. The idea that a fraudster should be treated like any other player is foolishness and the FL group are well within their rights to make exceptions, and examples, of them.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I've worked with Wim for several years now on many dozens of PAB cases. In my opinion they are thorough and fair when it comes to their handling of player issues. It is true that FL has a somewhat aggressive policy towards fraudsters but then they're trying to deter such activities and I'd say that the confiscation of deposits is most certainly an effective deterrent. The idea that a fraudster should be treated like any other player is foolishness and the FL group are well within their rights to make exceptions, and examples, of them.

The problem is that it is the casino that is often judge and jury in such cases, and there is no guarantee that they are right in every case. Whilst it might make fraudsters think twice, it probably does little to deter the determined ones, but is a policy that can be used to create bad PR for the operator, which in turn makes the fraudsters look less bad. I would suspect fraudsters would have factored in the risk of having deposits confiscated, and taken measures to minimise their losses. These measures would likely be along the lines of ensuring that they can use the chargeback weapon of last resort through the structuring of their deposit methods, and not necessarily as obvious as using a credit card and depositing £100 or more.
 
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