Help solve husband and wife debate...

[Zoozie]

I slightly disagree with this statement (although it is mostly correct). I think the payout actually decreases - just a little - the more lines you play.

I do not give up. It is 100% correct.

When you play 1-line you calculate payout by iterating through all combinations and add the wins and then divide by the number of iterations.

When playing 2 lines you do the same. Line 1 will still do the same as before, however line 2 will also be iterating through the exact same combinations but in a different order. So the line wins for line 2 will be the same as line 2. The is no doubt in this and I proved it mathematically besides both mine and Gerilege's simulations show it and it is mentioned in ITG reports for their slots.

What you talk about is correlation/variance. It is true that you can not hit 5 wilds at both lines at the same time. But EV/payout% is the same.

It is identical to buy two lottery tickets that share numbers. You can not have all numbers correct on both.

Convinced yet?

 

[SlotsWizard]

Convinced yet?

Yes!

From a high-level point of view I thought it should work out that way, so I must have made an error somewhere in the Harveys program I made last year. I always question my results when I don't have proof to compare it to, but you explained it perfectly when you said that the other lines are looping through the same combinations just in a different order ... duh! I should have known that!

 

[GOCC]

yes, I will go with predetermined.

Example : Roulette Machines in UK Bookies

My friend is hooked on them. As soon as it starts spinning he can tell me with 80% certainty what number it is going to land on. It doesnt really help as his bet is already on

You are incorrect

I will quote Ladbrokes software.

When you place your bet there is no conncetion to the RNG at the other end of the telephone line. The machine is connected to a telephone socket and when you press bet, a number is requested. At the other end of the telephone line is an RNG creating a random number about once a second.

If you go into a shop and press bet at the same time on numerous machines, all the machines will generate the same number.

With regard your friend being able to predict the number, again on ladbrokes, their is 3 pre programmed routines for whatever number has been chosen. SO the sequence is

Place Bets
Press Bet
Number Selected
Program Selected
Program run

Believe me, it is not predetermined

 

[GrandMaster]

I slightly disagree with this statement (although it is mostly correct). I think the payout actually decreases - just a little - the more lines you play.

If you only play 1 line then you would get the true full payout %, but each extra line you play decreases the potential return a little bit, due to the layout of the reels, which makes certain things impossible. For example, it is impossible to get five wilds on two paylines on the same spin (assuming there is only 1 wild on each reel, which is normally the case).

When I analyzed Harveys - before looking at the bonus round - I got a theoretical return of 67.6082% but an actual return of 65.7731% when all 25 lines were played.

It is of course possible that I made an error in my analysis program and therefore my reasoning is incorrect. If anyone wants to analyze Harveys, I dug the reel layouts out of the archives and attached them to this post. It would be interesting to see if the results of the mathematical formulas for the theoretical return, match the actual return when all lines are played - I don't think they do.

The payout percentage is the same, regardless of the number of lines. The expectation is additive. Assuming say 95% payout, if you bet $1 on line 1, you expect to win 95c on average, same on line 2, if bet $1 on both, then you expect to win $1.90. Of course, you won't be able to get the top payout on both lines simultaneously, but this is compensated by the fact that you are less likely to have no win or a small win on both lines.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The payout percentage is the same, regardless of the number of lines. The expectation is additive. Assuming say 95% payout, if you bet $1 on line 1, you expect to win 95c on average, same on line 2, if bet $1 on both, then you expect to win $1.90. Of course, you won't be able to get the top payout on both lines simultaneously, but this is compensated by the fact that you are less likely to have no win or a small win on both lines.

Yeah, Zoozie cleared it up for me perfectly. That post would be one of my most embarrassing ones ever. I blame it on lack of sleep!

 

[3Dice]

Yeah, Zoozie cleared it up for me perfectly. That post would be one of my most embarrassing ones ever. I blame it on lack of sleep!

I'm sure Zoozie said this a couple of times before too, but here's a good way to look at multiple lines ..

When you play e.g. 25 lines instead of 1, you keep the EV, but you increase the winfrequency per spin with 25 .. as you quite obviously now have 25 chances of getting a win .. what you also do however .. is divide the payout by 25 (as you paid 25 times as much for the spin) ..

So the result is that the wins will be more frequent, but not as many times your betsize .. which is exactly what the variance of a machine means.

As a player guide, you can use the line selection to choose your variance .. if the total betsize is the same, then 1 line will mean few wins but big ones and 25 will mean many wins but smaller ones ..

Greets,

e.