Help solve husband and wife debate...

bengoria

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Location
Phoenix, AZ
My husband and I have enjoyed playing at the Microgaming casinos but have an ongoing debate. Are the bonus features preprogrammed or are they based on how you pick? We were playing Moonshine for $1 at First Web casino on Sunday and hit the following bonuses within just a few spins:

16x4 $162.56
6x1 $3.12
8x4 $37.44
11x4 $369.96
14x3 $49.68
4x1 $14.00
9x3 $7.20
3x1 $4.52

Total $648.48

My husband insists that it was his brilliant picking strategy and I say it was all preprogrammed and it didn't matter which squares he picked he would have hit the same amounts.

Any thoughts on the matter to resolve this debate?
 
Any thoughts on the matter to resolve this debate?
Give Microgaming a ring & ask them! :p

Unfortunately this is just one of many things which no-one outside of the MG company itself can be sure of.
My personal opinion is - it doesn't matter either way!

KK
 
KK is right.

But it would be interesting to know how many of the games are pre-determined if since we know the VP double predetermined feature.

It is not only at MG, I have strong evidence WagerWorks Enchanted Unicorn feature is also predetermined etc.

However it does matter if the predetermined picks are uniformly random, but it is a waste of your time though.

Zoozie
 
I used to think it was pre-programmed....until I played Hitman, where the amount you win has different minimum and maximum win boundaries depending on the person you pick in the "calculator" bonus round.

I say that because it can't know which person you will pick, so if it pre-determined the highest possible prize, and you picked a person with a lower "maximum bondary", it wouldn't work.

It may vary of course, game to game.

As an aside, this thread might help in future "husband vs wife" debates ;)
 
what a coincidence

Last night Rich and I were watching a slot machine documentary. The programmers for the Vegas casinos said EVERYTHING is predetermined. He went as far to say that the only reason why they have reels with stuff like fruit , sevens, characters etc is to give someone something to look at while gambling

He also said the second you put your money in, the computer chip is activated to either win or lose. It makes no difference what kind of game it is.

Even if there is a bonus round. There is no strategy for most. The outcome is predetermined before you pick your choice.

Now what I find very very interesting is Alladdin. Do you remember seeing all of my WS this weekend from that game. I didnt even post all of the 25 free spin WS, it would of taken up 2 pages. This is the exception to the rule. Im kind of leary of saying anything because I dont wanna jinx it or have an RTG person see it. This cant be a coincidence because Ive been testing this for months because I never get the free spins lamp......Until Now.......

Let's say you get the bonus and you have to choose 3 lamps. Do not use both sides, by that I mean either click 3 from the left side or 3 from the right side. If you dont get the free spins, go to the other side next time. I know it sounds crazy but it worked for me every single time when in the past, I use to mix it up. The only iffy thing is the lamp in front. For the most part, 99.999, it took turns between sides

Other than that, this documentary swears up and down that it's predetermined. I use the same strategy from alladdin on MG's like cashalot and stars and stripes and it doesnt work. It just works on Alladdin.

I have too much time on my hands. Just try it and if it doesnt work, by all means laugh at me!
 
yes, I will go with predetermined.

Example : Roulette Machines in UK Bookies

My friend is hooked on them. As soon as it starts spinning he can tell me with 80% certainty what number it is going to land on. It doesnt really help as his bet is already on
 
yes, I will go with predetermined.

Example : Roulette Machines in UK Bookies

My friend is hooked on them. As soon as it starts spinning he can tell me with 80% certainty what number it is going to land on. It doesnt really help as his bet is already on

But "Hitman" can't be pre-determined - it's impossible as it can't know what the prize range is until the player picks a person out in the bonus round.
 
But "Hitman" can't be pre-determined - it's impossible as it can't know what the prize range is until the player picks a person out in the bonus round.

It can. The software selects a coin denomination with a +/- variation of x coins. The multiplier feature then matches as closely as possible to the pre-determined amount +/- the allowed 'variation'. The day someone posts a top coin value with a top multiplier - I eat my hat, and everyone elses :D Alternatively, and here's one for the REAL conspiracy lot - if it meant to give you a load of coins, and you picked the lowest possible - it makes up for it shortly afterwards on the reels or with subsequent features.

Hobobiker's experience of Cleopatra in UK B&M's has confirmed my theory that 'free spin' bonuses are pre-determined, which is a real bummer... particularly on Cleopatra which out of the lot I rated as the 'fairest'... Ho hum.
 
It can. The software selects a coin denomination with a +/- variation of x coins. The multiplier feature then matches as closely as possible to the pre-determined amount +/- the allowed 'variation'. The day someone posts a top coin value with a top multiplier - I eat my hat, and everyone elses :D Alternatively, and here's one for the REAL conspiracy lot - if it meant to give you a load of coins, and you picked the lowest possible - it makes up for it shortly afterwards on the reels or with subsequent features..

I just thought - there's a simple way to get a feel for this... Just play it in 'fun mode' and keep selecting the low end characters. I'll put my shirt on you always getting up towards the top end in coin value, and good multipliers!!... Giving you, ooooooh, more or less a low end/medium hig character win with a 2x multiplier... Hmmm...
 
On somewhat the same note....I have a dumb question. If you are playing at an RTG casino and the random jackpot is ready to pay...will it pay no matter what the size of the bet you make? In other words does anyone know if it would pay you if you were paying $.01? Even if there are 20 lines? Just my active imagination at work..and I'm bored!!!;)
 
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I'm just going to do a quick Excel thing to work out the potential coins for Hitman...

EDIT: It definitely works, only the lowest 'target' at maximum multiplier fails to meet the minimum required for the highest characters minimum win. Therefore, all the other characters would work - with the exception of the two very top prizes of 300,000 and 360,000 coins (all the rest are interchangeable). So by not picking the HIGHEST target, you may miss out on the jackpot - but it's more than likely the same whichever one you go for. Damn damn damn.... The more I read this forum - the less I like slots :D :D


Note to self: Change name to Pokester...




Note to self: New name sounds rude... Change name to Black Jackster














Note to self: New new name sounds rude - give up gambling.
 
So let me get this straight. You guys are saying that at the moment someone hit the spin button, the winning amount (if any) is determined and the spinning of the reels are just for show ?

Sorry but i don't believe that. I tought the winning percentage was determined by how much the reels are weighted and how many amount of symbols there is per reels.

If the winning amount is predetermined before the spin, what's the point of having weighted reels ? We made a huge thread about cracking the slots with all the probablity of payout and found out that they are indeed paying what they claim they are, around 95%.

What's the point of having slots with 25 symbol on reel 1, 30 on the 2nd, 40 on the 3rd and so on if it's just for show ?
 
So let me get this straight. You guys are saying that at the moment someone hit the spin button, the winning amount (if any) is determined and the spinning of the reels are just for show ?

Sorry but i don't believe that. I tought the winning percentage was determined by how much the reels are weighted and how many amount of symbols there is per reels.

If the winning amount is predetermined before the spin, what's the point of having weighted reels ? We made a huge thread about cracking the slots with all the probablity of payout and found out that they are indeed paying what they claim they are, around 95%.

What's the point of having slots with 25 symbol on reel 1, 30 on the 2nd, 40 on the 3rd and so on if it's just for show ?

Talking about features mainly I think... Of course, the slot reels are pre-determined as well, but by the RNG... and indeed the 'symbols' are just 'for show'. But yes, features mainly I think.
 
That's what he said

He said "the only reason why they have symbols is to give you something to look at" This guy has been a programmer for years. It's on the travel channel called "busting vegas" and "Vegas sucker bets"

The ONLY exception is Video Poker, that is the only game that cannot be predetermined because they all use one 52 card deck and you get to change your cards by holding or not. On slots, you push a button and really have nothing to think about.

BUT..When in the Trop one time, I had a conversation with a VP slot attendant and he told me that on the "Jacks or Better" slots, if you play the first 3 hands without changing a thing(even if you want to hold something, dont), it does something that makes you win and gives you better hands from that point on. I doubt it will work online but Im gonna try it in fun mode and come back to tell you if it worked.
 
My friend had a theory that on a real fruit machine we just keep playing, hold nothing, collect nothing and eventually we will win the 30 jackpot. Sure enough, eventually every 2nd hand we were getting some sort of win but we were gambling for the jackpot. That theory cost us 20 each haha:D
 
It can. The software selects a coin denomination with a +/- variation of x coins. The multiplier feature then matches as closely as possible to the pre-determined amount +/- the allowed 'variation'.

Yeah but, no but, yeah but....

Lets say it "pre-determines" you win 100 coins, but the maximum win on the smallest bonus option is 80 coins, and you pick it. You can't possibly win 100 coins. So what does it do? It cant pay you the 100 coins so it has no choice but to redetermine what you win, surely?!

Actually, the "slot reels mapping" thread may have the answer...the guys in there can trap the incoming data, so they could probably spot packets of data coming in during the bonus round.
 
Hobobiker's experience of Cleopatra in UK B&M's has confirmed my theory that 'free spin' bonuses are pre-determined, which is a real bummer... particularly on Cleopatra which out of the lot I rated as the 'fairest'... Ho hum.

This is not correct! Cleopatra is a perfect example of how 5-reel slots should be.
Every spin (also in feature mode) is uniformly random over each reel. I even got the ITG internal lab papers on it specifying how it works and a mathematical description of how to calculate win from the bonus game in a similar way I do.
The papers proved IGT knows exactly knowns what they are doing and they have been doing it for many years before MG figured out how to make
fair non-weighted 5-reel slots.

Zoozie
 
This is not correct! Cleopatra is a perfect example of how 5-reel slots should be.
Every spin (also in feature mode) is uniformly random over each reel. I even got the ITG internal lab papers on it specifying how it works and a mathematical description of how to calculate win from the bonus game in a similar way I do.
The papers proved IGT knows exactly knowns what they are doing and they have been doing it for many years before MG figured out how to make
fair non-weighted 5-reel slots.

Zoozie

In Vegas, maybe... Maybe even online. There's no possible way though that a UK B&M slot can pay out more than 500 on a single spin/feature. So it either must cap the winnings at 500 - or pre-determine the amount.
 
In Vegas, maybe... Maybe even online. There's no possible way though that a UK B&M slot can pay out more than 500 on a single spin/feature. So it either must cap the winnings at 500 - or pre-determine the amount.

I can not see how it is possible to cap the winnings for the total feature win.
Unless that if you in 1000 etc, you will only get paid 500 as you say (capped)

What if you hit 5 wilds outside the feature game with a line bet of 0.1? This would pay 1000. This would be a total bet of 1.5 which should be possible?

This is the possible payout% configurations for cleopatra (by changing the reels)
98.02
97.42
96.21
95.02
94.01
92.47
90.01
87.48
84.97

If you somehow can find the payout% and it match to one of these, you can be sure you are playing a non-modified version.
 
How do you achieve that Z ? Playing 9 lines?

Number of lines does not matter for payout% for non-weighted 5-reel slots (I can not remember how many times I have said that now :D).

The payout% numbers I gave are the different payout% settings "Cleopatra" can be set at. It is the only possible payout% choices the controller of the slot can configure it to. It is the same for B&M and the online version.

When Cleopatra was released Virgin had the 96.21% (you could see this under game info) and later it was downgraded to 95.02%. As you can see this match
exactly the factory documents I have.

So no matter how you play it, you will get the 95.02% payout as it is now. Except that I think it has a bug that if you play extra line bets on some lines, the win is not calculated correct - it is only possible to have different line-bets on WagerWorks slot. So if you do that, check the win when you win on the lines with extra bet.
 
But "Hitman" can't be pre-determined - it's impossible as it can't know what the prize range is until the player picks a person out in the bonus round.

I suppose each potential `pick` can already have a predetermined value set simmo, unless of course the computer is going to ultimately give out the same win value regardless of which you pick. Its not beyond the realms of possibility, i too have seen documentaries like this about slots but they wernt on line ones just normal pub slots. Still i used to believe those were random to a point and now i know their not. there is a very good chance online ones aernt either but well never know for sure. not unless a documentary comes out asbout on line slots :D lol)
 
Number of lines does not matter for payout% for non-weighted 5-reel slots

I slightly disagree with this statement (although it is mostly correct). I think the payout actually decreases - just a little - the more lines you play.

If you only play 1 line then you would get the true full payout %, but each extra line you play decreases the potential return a little bit, due to the layout of the reels, which makes certain things impossible. For example, it is impossible to get five wilds on two paylines on the same spin (assuming there is only 1 wild on each reel, which is normally the case).

When I analyzed Harveys - before looking at the bonus round - I got a theoretical return of 67.6082% but an actual return of 65.7731% when all 25 lines were played.

It is of course possible that I made an error in my analysis program and therefore my reasoning is incorrect. If anyone wants to analyze Harveys, I dug the reel layouts out of the archives and attached them to this post. It would be interesting to see if the results of the mathematical formulas for the theoretical return, match the actual return when all lines are played - I don't think they do.
 

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