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Non-Bonus Complaint Help please advise. Self exclusion and losses.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by MWIN2016, Jan 7, 2017.

    Jan 7, 2017
  1. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    I'll start by saying im a compulsive gambler, with some mental issues. I will not name the sites concerned until I have given them a proper chance at resolving the matter.

    In October 2015 I excluded from Site A (incidentally after losing a big four figure sum in a day on a credit card, ofcourse drunk) for a period of 5 years. I simultaneously excluded from a number of sites, and was completely gambling free for a while. However I returned to it about 15 months ago.

    Most recently I've been playing in my means and despite a couple of huge blips, have been satisfied with the high quality sites such as casinoland and trada- relatively under control.

    Seeking a bonus and more specifically cashback....I signed up to Site B (unaware ofcourse that they are part of the same group as Site A) five days ago.

    I won £214 from my initial £20 deposit. This was processed, as I sent my ID (still not flagged).


    Last night I got super drunk and lost approximately £1000 with them. I'm ashamed yes I took money that didn't belong to me via PayPal as I chased the losses (I'll have to face the shame and consequences of that shortly). I was suicidal for a while, until I noticed a familiar name on my online statement as I figured our what to do. The holding company of Site A had put money into my account and taken it.... Then it clicked Site B was owned by Site A! How and why I was able to get an account in the first place is beyond me ...surely they have some responsibility given my previous losses and how they publicize responsible gambling all over TV?

    I emailed and rang them up and this morning asking for a refund of all deposits minus my withdrawal.... Since I realize had I won £1000 no doubt I wouldn't have received it.

    The customer rep wasn't much help, couldn't refund, used your money, etc. However the conversation did verify that I wouldn't have received my funds had I won, especially such an amount 'Your account would have been flagged in the next few days- takes a few days sometimes'. Got me more angry.

    Then I sent off an email to the managers email.... Currently awaiting a response. It was a bit harshly worded with the threat of going to the gambling commission, Ecogra and small claims court (I was angry at myself, but also them). Thankfully they are regulated.


    I'm confident of based on what I read that with the will return the money, its a huge organisation, though not hugely accredited- all bets, deposits and withdrawals are voided surely? All legitimate casinos would behave in this way I have read.

    Am I right to be optimistic? I was told net deposits are £814 (I can't check since my account was blocked after I rang them).

    If they don't resolve this promptly am I right to do a chargeback, will I get it and will the bank agree? The gaming contract is nulled and voided.

    I ofcou accept responsiblity the drink, compulsive gambling issue and my underlying bipolar for this also.

    However the point remains. No doubt had I won £1000, or made any further withdrawal I would have been flagged on the system and I wouldn't have received the winnings (I've never disputed anything in my long gambling career)... As i say this was confirmed by the rep I spoke to who said my account would have been flagged shortly (it can take a while).

    Any help and advice is appreciated. Thanks for reading.
     
  2. Jan 7, 2017
  3. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    UKGC regulations state that bets of a SE'ed player have to be voided and the account returned to its original state as if no bets have been placed.

    We have seen casino groups interpreting this in different ways. Most return the deposits, some keep them. The regulations do not state that it is mandatory to return deposits, only the above which is quite a weak formulation.

    However, they also state that a licensed operator has to put procedures in place that a SE'ed gambler cannot register another account. At most groups this has become meanwhile instant the soon you try to register, still some however will do crosschecks only after you submitted a withdrawal or do them in regular intervals meaning it can be days before they realize you have SE'ed at Site A.

    Either way, if you do not receive a satisfactory answer then see if they are accredited at CM and then PM their rep for assistance. In case that fails you can try a PAB which is a free mediation service offered here at CM. Click on "Player Arbitration FAQ" on the top for more details.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  4. Jan 7, 2017
  5. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    As much as I 90% tend to side with players, sorry but you're not going to like my answer on this one, maybe I've misunderstood things a little, if that's the case then ignore my post, If not I apologise for my truthfulness regarding my feelings on this one.

    I think you've used this ruling as a loophole after dropping a HUGE bollock!

    We've all has those 'under the influence' sessions when we sober up, we think "WTF! have I done" however the casinos didn't pour the booze down our necks.

    I feel for anyone who suffers with any form of illness, whether a short or a life term thing but sadly we cannot blame that either. If Casinos really wanted to push the boat out I suppose they could say "Where does it say in our T&C's that players with illnesses are entitled to refunds"

    I feel my way of thinking has been swayed by other cases where players have lost too much and then pulled the Self-excluded get my dosh back stunt so I may be being harsh a little but looking at the surface of your case, sadly this is how it comes across.

    To stay withing UKGC regulations you may get lucky this time and the casinos hand maybe forced to fulfill the refund of deposits, I would however at least learn from this moving forward and tread very carefully in the future.

    In closing I will promise my opinion and thoughts are not personal and as I say mainly based on previous experience and situations encountered on here. I do however wish you the best of luck for an amicable outcome!
     
  6. Jan 7, 2017
  7. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
     
  8. Jan 7, 2017
  9. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    Not at all sir, I'm not sure what is implied. Regardless thanks for your wishes. I hope so too, I'm a bit calmer than I was earlier.

    Maybe in some ways you are right, with the alcohol.....but point remains surely if I had won they would have pulled the self exclusion stunt. I would bitterly but obviously accepted the loss had it been a fair gamble, have done every time in the past. But it wasn't.

    I actually upon reading more and more agree that they will likely cooperate since they still neglected their duties in terms of what the most basic procedures licensees should be adhering too...that they will reverse the deposits, though it may take a couple weeks I guess.

    Oh unfortunately the mental illness is real though I'm working on it....not so successfully at times but I hope I get there. Bipolar. However I accept its some what irrelevant.

    Ultimately I know I have a problem hence why I self excluded for 5 years from their main site....surely they should uphold the exclusion it, seeing they certainly would have uphelded it had I won. Now that is relevant I believe.

    Thanks for your input once again. Hopefully it works out OK, and more so your advice...I can't live life like this for too much longer. Regardless of outcome I need to put a stop to this once and for all.
     
  10. Jan 7, 2017
  11. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Unfortunately as we see with the EMSEB issue, the flaccid UKGC rules exacerbate a serious issue. While slapping themselves on the back for forcing pointless autoplay rules upon casinos and players, they have epic fails as regards SE. Most casinos exercise due diligence and will flag your account before you get chance to deposit. Some groups don't and use it to their advantage to take no-risk deposits - win and they won't pay when they miraculously flag you upon cashing-out, lose and they at worst refund the deposits.

    IF the casino has put in writing you wouldn't have been paid then your purchase of chips was void. Simple as. Go to the casino and point it out, if that fails go to your payment provider. If that fails use the County Court system.

    Whether the player is trying it on or not is irrelevant - the system is wrong to allow it. Close this loophole in the UKGC rules and EMSEB and stories like the OP's would stop overnight.
     
  12. Jan 7, 2017
  13. mimi26

    mimi26 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    nurse
    Location:
    uk
    Can you name the casino?

    there may be people here who can help
     
  14. Jan 7, 2017
  15. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton

    Couldn't agree more but the temptation or risk (for want of better wording) for extra "Under the radar income" will win over the simple and obvious solution which has been staring them in the face from the start :(
     
  16. Jan 7, 2017
  17. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    Thank you for your advice. But that's just it Buddy, I wasn't trying it on. I had no idea that they were the same group. I only signed up to it to get cashback via one of the major cashback sites. E.g. deposit and wager £20ish get that as cashback. Then the compulsive gambler takes over....

    Btw What is EMSEB?

    Unfortunately I don't have it in writing though the CS woman on the phone said my account would have been flagged in the next few days. Irrespective I couldn't/wouldn't have been able to withdraw winnings from yesterday- no doubt that.

    If only I could turn back- typical compulsive gambler thinking. Whilst I'm confident I'll get the money, the headache of all it, stress, etc.....meh. Though perhaps finally this time I'll quit for good.

    Anyway is the bank the payment provider or visa?

    Thanks
     
  18. Jan 7, 2017
  19. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    Not just yet, I do wish to give them the opportunity to settle this matter amicably and promptly first.

    Though thanks. I been reading all day on the forum, and the holding site concerned have been guilty of this before- seems like they like a problem gambler returning.

    I also read advice on how some got their money back from them. But yeah thanks....if it isn't sorted by the end of the week will post the name.
     
  20. Jan 7, 2017
  21. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    What's the obvious solution?
     
  22. Jan 7, 2017
  23. osulle

    osulle Ueber Meister CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    life
    Location:
    Northern hemisphere
    I don't get it:confused: Why did you start a thread looking for help and advice when you already know what you are doing? You could have very easily waited until you got the official response from the casino and then started a thread detailing your experience. If you named the casino then there maybe somebody on the forum that can assist you. As far as I can tell you are using this thread to bring pressure to bear on the casino. i.e. pay me my money back or I will name you.

    I do hope you get your money back but you really ought to do something like install Gamblock or have somebody else help you with your finances so you don't get into the same mess again in the future.

    I wish you luck.
     
  24. Jan 7, 2017
  25. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Won't go into great detail as this has been discussed on here numerous times, however to summarise, examples not limited to but inclusive of could include...

    * A system upon attempted registration which detects matching/previously registered date of births, physical addresses etc.

    * A Disclaimer/ pop up / "Important Notice" which is not buried away in their endless pages of T&C's detailing the SE rules (Sister sites etc) (a Simple 'check box' before being allowed to continue could solve this)
     
  26. Jan 7, 2017
  27. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    Thank you. You are right, I was just panicky when I started the thread. My head was all over the place (I was suicidal like many a compulsive gambler). And who could I tell, first place I saw for some support

    I do not wish to go public if at all possible and necessary to get this resolved amicably.

    I sort of do know what I'm doing now, though needed to know about chargebacks mainly. Which were explained earlier. Thanks for advice and wishes.
     
  28. Jan 7, 2017
  29. osulle

    osulle Ueber Meister CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    life
    Location:
    Northern hemisphere
    The first one although not impossible is hard to do but the second suggestion could be easily implemented and all affiliated casinos should do it.
     
  30. Jan 7, 2017
  31. osulle

    osulle Ueber Meister CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    life
    Location:
    Northern hemisphere
    You are most welcome. There is a quit gambling section on this forum which could be helpful for you as it contains advice as well as stories from other gamblers who quit gambling because of addiction problems. http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/quit-gambling/

    I do understand the panic that you felt when you lost all your money. I have been there a time or two when I had a couple of drinks and wouldn't wish that sinking feeling that you messed up on anybody. There is help out there. I really wish the UKCG would implement a voluntary database of problem gamblers who want to be SE'd from all casinos that fall under the UKCG in the UK at least. This would surely be a great aid for problem gamblers because they wouldn't be able to sign on to any casinos once they are on that database. Just a thought.
     
  32. Jan 7, 2017
  33. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    Indeed, imagine the confusion and subsequent stress that could so simply be avoided by implementing a list of all associated sister sites in the T&Cs.

    In fact it should be at the top, rule 1.1 and in bold letters, or even as a side banner that pops up when filling out the registration form.

    It would take casinos all of 5 minutes to implement, but of course we know they won't. As long as they can get away with the slack laws in place and exploit ambiguous guidelines and loopholes, they will continue with this win/win scenario, unfortunately :mad:
     
  34. Jan 7, 2017
  35. MWIN2016

    MWIN2016 Dormant account

    Location:
    manchester
    Oh right yeah, I believe both are more than viable as adopted by numerous other sites. I mean no way could I probably get past other sites or sister sites I have self excluded from based on my details alone I believe.

    But Im sure this particular site are doing it on purpose. There is no way I don't think they didn't know I wasnt excluded.

    I say that for specific reason, namely no doubt my name (unusual one) would have popped up on their database especially when processing the first withdrawal, along with the same address, IP address, dob and photo. Other sites wouldn't miss it.

    Though my file probably had a nice sign next to it that indicated my losses at the holding site and perhaps indicated I was a problem gambler.
     
  36. Jan 9, 2017
  37. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    EveryMatrix Self-Exclusion Bullshit - a license holder renowned and infamous for allowing their casinos and White Labels to take deposits from excluded players by not checking them upon sign-up. If the player loses they walk off never knowing they wouldn't have been paid, because they don't exercise due diligence until withdrawals are initiated. If they win the casino then uses SE as an excuse not to pay, and often keep the void deposits too unless the player ripped-off kicks up a fuss. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you look down the bottom of the casino you're having the issue with and find it's an EveryMatrix one - they specialize in this scam, even had a County Court Judgement against them recently when they tried it on with the wrong player....
     
  38. Jan 9, 2017
  39. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    Many of the people with compulsive gambling issues NEVER make a cashout. They carry on until bust, or can't wait a few hours or days while verification takes place.

    Identical name and date of birth should be enough to trigger a temporary lock until the player can provide further proof he is not the same person as the SE'd player.
     

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