has online gaming gone to the dogs?

Are you being served better or worse by online casinos now compared to when you started?

  • More or less the same. I see no significant change.

    Votes: 11 7.2%
  • I'd say better. Maybe you need a vacation.

    Votes: 4 2.6%
  • A bit worse maybe but not a big deal IMO.

    Votes: 26 17.1%
  • Worse, much worse. Maybe we both need vacations.

    Votes: 104 68.4%
  • "Online Casino"?!? I thought this was a pizza delivery service.

    Votes: 7 4.6%

  • Total voters
    152

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Ok, I'll admit that's a bit of a click-bait title, but the intention behind it is genuine. Allow me to explain.

In my work in Complaints I find that I'm dealing with a lot more pissed off players than I used to. They often don't get much satisfaction from the casinos they frequent. More and more these players -- and me too when I'm trying to help them -- are hitting brick walls when they seek to have an issue resolved. And that brick wall often seems to be some form of corporate BS.

Perhaps the casino has farmed out their Customer Service to a call center in Mumbai and players are forced to run a seemingly endless gauntlet of CS reps who don't know anything and can't make the decisions necessary to get things resolved. Result? Pissed off customer.

Or the casino has implemented ridiculous KYC rules that have nothing to do with customer safety or satisfaction and everything to do with the casino making the withdrawal process as painful as possible in the hopes that Joe/Jane Average Player will get so frustrated that they just reverse the withdrawal and end up playing their winnings away. Result? Pissed off and poorer customer.

Or the casino's legal department has jumped the shark and forced the CS people to claim that they can't talk to anybody but the player because of "data protection laws". See here for how much bull-crap that is: Casino Industry Myths: The General Data Protection Regulation ("GDPR") - Casinomeister - Forum Result? Player pissed off and issue unresolved.

Or the casino has set up an "internal complaints department" that is supposed to handle all player complaints. This is the old "self regulating" shell game that has been repeatedly proven to be exactly what it is: BS. If there is money on the table at Casino X and a person employed by Casino X is in charge of deciding what happens to that money then the end of that process is fairly predictable: a pissed off customer because most times, one way or another, that money will end up flowing back to Casino X. To the surprise of absolutely no one.

I could go on but I think I've made my point: as the casino industry has become more and more "industrialized" -- as our fearless leader puts it -- the customer has simply become a revenue stream. With few exceptions the personal touch is long gone, the mantra of "customer care" is chanted ad nauseum when the opposite is the norm, and the vast majority of the online casino business has just become a big fat money hoover for anonymous casino group owners and shareholders.

Or maybe that's just my jaded view after 13 years of processing player complaints. Is it? See the poll above and let us know what you think. And feel free to comment below.
 
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L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Hi Max,
I dont know what to answer, I'm having more the feeling that were just doing the opposite. We are open, transparant and 24/7 available. Support can make their own decisions, as well as for supervisors who are on the shift as well.
I skip my vote here :)
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
I hear you. I tried to make it clear that there were exceptions but I guess that got a bit lost in the wash. The fact that you are here and responding to players puts you head and shoulders above the rest, IMHO.
 

Deeplay

New World Order
webmeister
CAG
mm1
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Location
The biG Eu
It is much worse today. I have been gambling on and off since around 2005 maybe a bit earlier. And gone are the days of any kind of personal service what so ever. Today we the players are just a number - nothing more. CS for the most part is useless and give stock answers. The new generation of games are either clones or awful. Remember when people would actually look forward to the new monthly MG releases or NetEnt. These days it hardly makes a headline.

Sure some things are better in the UK. You dont get stiffed on reverses, and for the most part you get paid (when you win) without any long delays. But thats where it ends. I have been waiting and waiting to hear from Unibet on documents provided over a week ago. No reply other than they are still in a que. Same answer over and over. I dont wanna make my post about that but its just an example.

I know they are a few really good reps here on CM but I fear they are a dying breed. And I suppose from a casinos pov it makes sense. Using a much more globalist approach - there is no need for the personal touches anymore. Even the highly esteemed Videoslots who yes are very active on the forum - are also faceless- no name just "team video slots" all very cold very impersonal. And yet as players we still give them our hard earned money.

I get a feeling many brands have kind of given up on the UK market - and it is not going to get any better imo. It is not what it used to be. Its more now of a very slick corporate operation where you are known only by numbers. No sense of loyality needs to be instilled because there is always going to be another round of fresh players. And as a side note even though I know this thread is not about this. Affiliate streamers (we know the bad ones) have done immense damage to the industry as a whole.

I know im into my last year of online gaming. The new games are badly put together or insane volatility. The older games have been revamped are for the most part unplayable - MG being one of the worst for destroying epics such as TS2 and IR. Classic games of a bygone era. Maybe im just too old and this is a rant of "in my day..." but honestly I cant see it getting any better. CM has been a shining light for years - but times are changing and casinos less and less need to rely on forums and direct interaction with the player base. And why should they when they have certain streamers banging out £10 to £150 quid spins winning £xxxxxxx each session. All very lame and im almost done with it.
 

slotmaster

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Location
Ontario
I have to go with yes. It is awful to play online now with the everything said above. Country restrictions,Tech issues, deposit and withdrawal issues and awful Pay backs now.

Way different than 5-6 years even as back then you would hit smaller amounts to keep you going or a small withdrawal. Now it is a slog to even get $100 up or you don't hit anything and it's all or nothing.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
I think that casinos don't care any more. They have the customer base they want, and as mentioned above, have affiliates doing fake streams bringing in the £££'s.

What I have noticed over the past couple of years, on here, but other places too, casino reps just run away when theres the slightest bit of criticism against them. There are of course a couple of exceptions, but even the so called 'top' casinos on here do it too. There are certain ones who deliberately try to deceive their customers, yet whatever they do, people keep playing there. If they can get away with dodgy stuff then they will keep doing it, if it increases the profit.

Reps become unresponsive and nothing is done, yet the casino keeps it top rating (again, not just here but in other places too). If there is no fall out for their actions and they get to make more money, then it's obvious they will keep doing it.

I'm going through something with LeoVegas/Legs11 at the moment where I have been lied to multiple times, do they care? No of course not. 3 years ago I could have sent the rep a PM and got it sorted, haven't bothered this time as I know it's a waste of time. The ICO is going to be informed though, and the only way of changing attitudes is to report casinos to the regulators.

I could name loads of casinos who have reps on here who do things wrong, and have no interest to sort it out, as it will hurt the bottom line.

Then you have the game providers who drop RTP's. I have seen it said they do this because the casinos say they won't serve their games if they don't. Bullshit. If all providers said no, how will a casino operate without games? I could understand a small provider doing it, but do PlayNGo or NetEnt really believe if they don't offer lower RTP's then any casino would drop them?

Pragmatic Play, who have their roots in dishonesty, have all but admitted Roshtein's half a million win on one of their slots was fake. That didn't stop them using it on facebook as a promotional post. Will they care about a bit of negative publicity on forums, no, because they know people will still play there and will still be promoted everywhere.

KYC/SoW is just another excuse for casinos to keep customers' money if that customer can't provide, to the letter, what they are asking for. They then lie about the reasons they are 'allowed' to do this, and run away when they are asked questions.

When autospins etc are banned later this year, we will see more people moving to the unregulated market, as they will have just as much chance of getting paid.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
It's pretty dire out there at the moment.
The beer is being watered down almost everywhere now with the house edge on many slots being raised by 50% or even 100% or more. Most new slots are garbage nowadays and as we have seen with Playtech and Microgaming, much of the industry is seemingly content to rest on its laurels.
Players like the chance to win big x stake - trouble is, to get those wins (unless very fortunate) you need hours and hours of time to play and an almost limitless budget. Any guesses as to whom that criteria applies?
Then as people witness these big wins, guess which mantra the slot developers adopt?

Bonuses with any realistic chance of conversion are rare nowadays - try (as a new customer) getting a simple 100% with only 25 or 30x playthrough!

GAMSTOP has been both a success and a disaster as no action has yet been applied by banks and processors to ensure deposits cannot reach the criminal scum who run the shithole casinos and casinomir et al.

Petty regulation has also intervened and seems mainly mooted by do-gooders or anti-gambling lobbies and minimal or no consultation with the end users, viz-a-viz us lot. So we have talk about £2 max stakes, auto-play removal, spin speeds etc.

Then we have the illogical misapplication of SoW rules which have provided the casinos with a very convenient stick to beat players with, now reversals are abolished.

Hardly a single casino exists which has full understanding of the GDPR and this has frustrated common-sense and unfettered disputes resolution. It is used as an excuse, a shield, to insulate casinos from the inconvenience of their anti-player actions being challenged.

So yeah, it's been a generally crap couple of years.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Oh and just to prove the point about reps, just seen the Pragmatic Play thread is closed as they requested it to be. Funny that after I criticized them over using Roshtein's 'win' as a promotional tool.
Nothing stopping you or anyone else starting another TopGame Pragmatic Play thread. :) CM even stated so. They may be able to control their thread, but not others' threads.
 

rshkrn

Experienced Member
PABnoaccred
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Asia
The country specific laws and restrictions seem to have made this far worse over the years, the providers and games in general have been able to keep my quest for gambling and entertainment at a somewhat constant level, even after a really looking time
 

shadow123

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Location
midlands
As far as games are concerned, I dont think there is a problem, some sites have thousands, surely it cant be that hard to
find some running at a decent RTP that give reasonable playtime and entertainment.When I first started online gaming i doubt
whether any casinos had a hundred and a new release from MG was eagerly awaited and a big event.
Regarding the relationship between players and casinos, basically there isnt one anymore, some pretend to be friendly but
its just a business like any other, they only exist to make money.
Generally CS is abysmal, they have no interest in helping just have stock answers for delays ect, everything is handled by faceless
teams who are impossible to contact,none of this happened a few years ago,then they valued customers and loyaltly was rewarded.
The blame for all the shit we get now has to be placed firmly with the UKGC,issuing regulations that do nothing to help anyone
and allowing casinos to take advantage where they can,delaying payments in the hope of the player losing when they cant withdraw.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
Much, much. MUCH worse!
Honestly I'm getting so sick of all the bullshit these days that I may soon stop playing and posting altogether :(

As a player I'm getting shafted at just about every casino, by them lowering their RTPs for short term gains.
No decent bonuses anymore, just pathetic 10% or a few free spins.
I've been waiting nearly 2 MONTHS for Rizk to approve my SOW documents, while holding on to my £200.
Providers keep on withdrawing my favourite games - especially Netent, MG & RIval :mad:

As an affiliate I have been shafted so many times that I have lost count - most recently by those KINDRED evil stealing b'stards (32Red & Unibet).
Nearly all the players I referred to what were once good casinos have stopped playing - probably because of the same bullshit mentioned above, that I am facing myself.
I'm getting close to quitting this business as well.

If it gets much worse the casinos might as well start a pizza delivery service, because they will run out of mugs to put up with all the crap we see nearly everywhere these days.

KK
 

Lemon

Aaaaah! Lemon fresh :)
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Location
Skinton-on-sea
I can't speak for the rest of the world but my belief is that in the UK it's going to get worse and very quickly when the new UK regs come in. They've gone too far - way beyond the notion of protecting players - and the result will be catastrophic. Lots more operators will see the UK as a hostile market or not financially viable and pull out, leaving a handful of big names remaining, including the LBO chains, which for the most part are a bunch of shitbags. Players will spend much less money, divert their gambling spend to other forms of gambling or just simply quit altogether.

Revenue will drop overnight when the new regs come in; it cannot do anything else can it really? I mean, it's hardly going to go up is it? RTPs will start to be lowered because that's the only language betting-chain bean-counters understand. Operators will spend less money promoting new games and game studios will reduce R&D spend and stick to safe, easy-to-produce slots that don't offer anything in terms of innovation, all of which will alienate remaining players further and send the industry into further decline and inevitably an irrecoverable tailspin.

In many ways people spending less money on gambing is good for the UK economy and society as a whole. But as the industry shrinks in the UK there are bound to be job-losses, and players who are persistent enough will seek out unregulated markets to continue what is for most people, a mere hobby or source of entertainment.

I don't really believe the UKGC have considered all angles or sought the opinion of a wider selection of people when setting out the new regs. I do believe however that they will be taxing much smaller profits in the future and that will almost all be down to reduced slot revenue.

I guess we'll find out in less than 8 months eh?
 

orion

Experienced Member
PABnonaccred
Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Location
deep south of Eu
much worse.
I agree 100% with Deeplay. In his post I can find exactly my actual feeling and my situation.

I'd like just to add one thing: ONE of the reasons of this getting worse has to be found in the regulation of the markets imo.
Markets regulated means less competition. Lack of competition leads to the creation of "cartellos" (trust), where the casinos are in a comfort zone, just serving all together the same (awful) watered beer.
These days, nobody takes care of the customers (players) anymore.

I may add that UKGC seems the only national body that at least TRIED to do something for the players (even if we see they did many mistakes). On other markets, nothing has been done so far, they are just collecting money, in the easiest and laziest way.
I mean a lot of money.
 

News Hound

Casinomeister News
Staff member
CAG
MM
Joined
Feb 15, 2019
Specifically speaking about the UK - All that misguided regulation and over regulation will do, is drive players who play responsibly, who in the main are the majority, to offshore jurisdictions. Jurisdictions whereby players will find very quickly they have little to no protection from a regulator.

The UKGC needs to step back as do all the protagonists screaming for low maximum bet limits and see what actual damage they will be doing. Instead of protecting people that gamble, they will be forcing the very people they want to protect into a virtual sea full of sharks and piranhas.
 

Deeplay

New World Order
webmeister
CAG
mm1
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Location
The biG Eu
Specifically speaking about the UK - All that misguided regulation and over regulation will do, is drive players who play responsibly, who in the main are the majority, to offshore jurisdictions. Jurisdictions whereby players will find very quickly they have little to no protection from a regulator.

The UKGC needs to step back as do all the protagonists screaming for low maximum bet limits and see what actual damage they will be doing. Instead of protecting people that gamble, they will be forcing the very people they want to protect into a virtual sea full of sharks and piranhas.

But also on the flip side this could be a very very lucrative market for a casino wanting to set up offshore without the intention of ripping people off. Many hurdles would need to be overcome when it comes to game choice - payment methods. But if UK online gambling collapses as I think it will over the next 18 months especially if max bet limits come into force - then there would be a very wide gap in the market.

I would play at an unregulated casino if they had legtimate games and were known not to screw on payments or deposit methods. Sure it would always be a risk but it was a risk before the UKGC came to life. But as of now there is no place offshore I would trust. But in time that could change.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
As a player I'm getting shafted at just about every casino, by them lowering their RTPs for short term gains.
No decent bonuses anymore, just pathetic 10% or a few free spins.
I've been waiting nearly 2 MONTHS for Rizk to approve my SOW documents, while holding on to my £200.
That is exactly what I was meaning in my post above.
2 months to approve some documents? Seriously?
What an absolute joke any casino is who take that long to do anything.
It's a breach of their LCCP if they waited till the withdrawal.
If it's over 30 days they are supposed to have sent it off to get approved by the NCA.
Videoslots did it with Stevie recently, refused to pay, saying regulations said they couldn't. Then paid her. So were they lying initially, or did they break regulations?
NYSpins/Voodoo seem to do it regularly. Rep doesn't bother responding.
Casumo do it all the time, rep didn't give a shit.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
But also on the flip side this could be a very very lucrative market for a casino wanting to set up offshore without the intention of ripping people off.
I agree. There is a massive market opportunity for a casino not licensed within the UK to step in, operate to the same standards we currently get, ie fast withdrawals etc, trustworthy, and take the market share of customers who have/are going to leave the UK.

Same for sports betting. I did a survey about possibly £100 a month spend limits on my forum, and 90% said they would look at gambling outside the UKGC rather than supply SoW documentation to lift the limits. That might not sound bad, but most these people have been gambling for the past 20-30 years, they aren't young people who understand how to use a VPN, yet a lot will stop using UK bookies if that measure comes in.

If you asked me 18 months ago I wouldn't have thought for a second I would be thinking about playing at a non UK licensed casino, no I would happily do so if I knew one a trustworthy one. I would also happily promote them.
 

News Hound

Casinomeister News
Staff member
CAG
MM
Joined
Feb 15, 2019
But also on the flip side this could be a very very lucrative market for a casino wanting to set up offshore without the intention of ripping people off. Many hurdles would need to be overcome when it comes to game choice - payment methods. But if UK online gambling collapses as I think it will over the next 18 months especially if max bet limits come into force - then there would be a very wide gap in the market.

I would play at an unregulated casino if they had legtimate games and were known not to screw on payments or deposit methods. Sure it would always be a risk but it was a risk before the UKGC came to life. But as of now there is no place offshore I would trust. But in time that could change.
Yes, there already are some decent sites established and operating out of Curacao for example, but they are few and far between. The vast majority of operators offshore to the UK will be rubbing their hands in anticipation and glee, wishing for further punitive measures in the form of UK regulations to come into play.

Unlike you and other members of the forum here and elsewhere, that do their research before they decide as to where to play. The vast majority of players will be choosing their online casino comparatively blindly, just as long as they are not restricted by 'No Autoplay' or 'No ridiculous bet limits'

This is where problems will be seen. Not forgetting the fact that many operators will decide to join others who have already given up their UK licence.
 
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