Guts - defending their manipulation of player logs.

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
M8, You make a very good point. Something ive been stewing over all evening. And when you put it together with what actually happened you may
conclude that I arrived back to my game with pending free spins , which then ended and the system then wiped the credits and the history.
So lets say this is/was the case. Lets say that this fits in with what concluded that evening. And if it is the case, and I got shafted by a rule ive never heard of, nor has any other casino in 15 years ever pulled me up on. We now need to consider, WHy don't the logs show my real game play and game order?? Why do logs show me as ending my session some hours earlier. If this rule has been implemented, then how are we to determine our true game history?

PS- As I am VIP at several casinos, many right here at meister, I have completed chats with my VIP managers and discussed this issue regarding unplayed games. It didn't concern either party nor was it considered unusual as game history at these casinos shows me storing free games consistently. 32red has a rule that only states that should I not complete free games today I must do so the next day. that's a far cry from stealing a players money and spin features.

I find this highly unlikely to be fair, maybe in the earlier years of your play but this sort of ruling has been around for a good while.

Players over the years have obviously taken advantage and that is where the term/condition developed from.
 

Harry_BKK

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
M8, You make a very good point. Something ive been stewing over all evening. And when you put it together with what actually happened you may
conclude that I arrived back to my game with pending free spins , which then ended and the system then wiped the credits and the history.
So lets say this is/was the case. Lets say that this fits in with what concluded that evening. And if it is the case, and I got shafted by a rule ive never heard of, nor has any other casino in 15 years ever pulled me up on. We now need to consider, WHy don't the logs show my real game play and game order?? Why do logs show me as ending my session some hours earlier. If this rule has been implemented, then how are we to determine our true game history?

PS- As I am VIP at several casinos, many right here at meister, I have completed chats with my VIP managers and discussed this issue regarding unplayed games. It didn't concern either party nor was it considered unusual as game history at these casinos shows me storing free games consistently. 32red has a rule that only states that should I not complete free games today I must do so the next day. that's a far cry from stealing a players money and spin features.

Crikey, if you are so adamant that you are in the right then talk to Yits on the phone as he has offered, if you are not happy after then go ahead and PAB. CM will have then access to your full gaming logs and will be able to determine if any foul play has occurred. Simples Meight. :D

Every casino, at least all multi-platform ones and probably most MG download ones as well have the clause. Otherwise the bonuses would be open to widespread abuse sending a casino into sure bankruptcy.

Just imagine one of the larger casinos with 50.000 players and all are taking a nice 100% bonus offer, let's say for Christmas or Easter, up to 200$. They chose a slot, play until they hit the bonus round, cha
 
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scarletmuse

Dormant Account
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Location
Perth
M8, You make a very good point. Something ive been stewing over all evening. And when you put it together with what actually happened you may
conclude that I arrived back to my game with pending free spins , which then ended and the system then wiped the credits and the history.
So lets say this is/was the case. Lets say that this fits in with what concluded that evening. And if it is the case, and I got shafted by a rule ive never heard of, nor has any other casino in 15 years ever pulled me up on. We now need to consider, WHy don't the logs show my real game play and game order?? Why do logs show me as ending my session some hours earlier. If this rule has been implemented, then how are we to determine our true game history?

PS- As I am VIP at several casinos, many right here at meister, I have completed chats with my VIP managers and discussed this issue regarding unplayed games. It didn't concern either party nor was it considered unusual as game history at these casinos shows me storing free games consistently. 32red has a rule that only states that should I not complete free games today I must do so the next day. that's a far cry from stealing a players money and spin features.

Enough "mate". If VIP stands for 'Very Ignorant Person" then I have no doubt that you would be rated as such on dozens of sites. Paired with your dedicated, loyal 15 years of casino experience has really shaped you into the respected, gentlemanly player that you are. And without your valuable membership, I'd fear seeing some of my favourite casinos shut down since you are singlehandedly keeping them in business.

I have been wishing you well all this time only because you know what, I'm not a jerk. Just had a quick visit to your profile and even before I was able to read through your meaningful and credible forum posts, the statistics were clear enough evidence that my very first comment about you not deserving to have been treated with the respect and courtesy shown to you by Yits... And, IMHO, nor from any of the other Site Reps that have dealt with the only posts you seem to like making-complaints! Of 50 posts, I found only one that wasn't a complaint/arrogant demand/screenshot of rude, disgusting chat behaviour/attempts to single-handedly rip off every site you play at really.

You claim to have been so ripped off and duped and scammed out of honest money and that you have a clear grasp on the intricate details of casino operations and legalities. Credit yourself with VIP qualities, act and talk like every casino rep should basically honour every ridiculous request you make or use manipulative behaviour to try and 'catch them out' with sarcasm, rude language and a delusional sense of self-worth. Then, when an offer is eventually given to you out of kindess regardless of your attitude, I bet even you have a moment where you can't believe you got away with it-again. And then, even when advice, help and above and beyond service is shown to you, you can't even be bothered to click the 'Thanks' button more than three times in two years.
 

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
Y I bet even you have a moment where you can't believe you got away with it-again. And then, even when advice, help and above and beyond service is shown to you, you can't even be bothered to click the 'Thanks' button more than three times in two years.

Mind reader lol, braver than me to actually post it though :thumbsup:
 

crikeym8

Multiple forum accounts - flaming and being a PITA
PABnoaccred
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Location
Moorabbin
32red terms

4. Unfinished Games

In the event that you are unable or fail to finish a multi-stage game before signing out of the Site you must complete that same game the next time you sign in to the Site.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CasinoRoom
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-23. In the event of aborted games for any reason whatsoever, all players’ transactions are always accurately recorded on our system. Any "unfinished game rounds" are restored when returning to the game.

.....................................................................................................................................

SlotsMagic........................................

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Nothing in terms.

.............................................................................................................................

Casino Lavida

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


No mention of unfinished games or bets.

.......................................................................................................................

NEDPLAY

Outdated URL (Invalid)

4. Unfinished Games

4.1 In the event that you are unable or fail to finish a multi-stage game before signing out of the Site you must complete that same game the next time you sign in to the Site.

............................................................................................................................................


Just some im VIP at, not one has restrictions regarding this so called unfinished bets rule so many claim is across the board in the casinos.
And ive contacted YITS and im expecting a call soon.
 

crikeym8

Multiple forum accounts - flaming and being a PITA
PABnoaccred
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Location
Moorabbin
Every casino, at least all multi-platform ones and probably most MG download ones as well have the clause. Otherwise the bonuses would be open to widespread abuse sending a casino into sure bankruptcy.

I find this highly unlikely to be fair, maybe in the earlier years of your play but this sort of ruling has been around for a good while.

Players over the years have obviously taken advantage and that is where the term/condition developed from.

Yep, say no more!
 

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
Was not going to respond but you caught me in the right or should I say wrong frame of mind.

'There are none so deaf than those what will not listen' (Del Boy Trotter)

No one (member wise) has told you what you can or cannot do.

One last try however...

Carry on down this route and using this playing 'tactic' and I 100% (not 99.9%, 100%) guarantee you will have problems 'down the road' may not be today, maybe not next week but you will get penalised, whether a small withdrawal confiscated or account(s) closed.

It is against the terms and conditions of several casinos, whether you found it or saw it with you own eyes, please trust me IT IS AGAINST THE RULES!

Do not say we didn't try to warn/help you.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
As far as boni are concerned, Microgaming patched this possible exploit many years ago. If you have an unfinished game when you bust from a bonus, the WR is not wiped, it causes a form of carry over. It is one cause of the odd issue that some players have reported of making a fresh cash deposit and seeing some or all of their cash turn to bonus funds. This is down to how the Microgaming wager tracker works by converting 10 units of bonus to real money every time a set amount is wagered. If this happens, the usual cause is that the system believes you have an unfinished bet. However, there is also a bug that can cause a bogus unfinished bet to reflect on an account, and this has caused a few problems between player and casino in the past.

Browser based multi provider casinos may be more vulnerable to such an exploit, so they probably use more robust detection and enforcement. Many will not allow bonus funds to be transferred into a game thought to be particularly vulnerable, which makes it impossible to even break this rule. Some of the disallowed games on other sites have other forms of vulnerability, so are either banned outright, disabled by the software when a bonus is in play, or will only allow real money to be transferred to the game.

Generating game logs in a browser based multi provider environment is not as simple as on a single provider game server, which is probably why game logs don't always match the order of play - for example an unfinished bet played off right now might actually be recorded in the log from the earlier session that created it, which would make the timeline in the logs differ from what the player actually experienced.

Oddly enough, way back in 2005, the original Intercasino software was immune by design from such an exploit. It would never permit more than one game to be open at a time, and would always force the completion of an unfinished game before any further play could take place.

It seems the industry itself later introduced this vulnerability by wanting to allow players to spend faster by having several games open at once. The instability of the internet then demonstrated this potential exploit to players as they routinely found themselves thrown out of the software, and finding that their old incomplete games were silently stored until they happened to open them again later. A few must then have worked out how this could be used in the days when casinos did not have an inbuilt function to track wagering on a bonus, but players had to guess, or ask CS to run a simple query from their end that just summed up the wagers made since the bonus was credited and compared this to the required WR. CS simply did not check any further, and would not notice any signs of such an exploit. The operators were probably just as clueless, and maybe even the software provider had not considered the possibility.

However, this is now 2016, and this trick is almost as old as grinding a bonus on Blackjack for a small but consistent +EV outcome. Both are consigned to the history books.

Now, it's errors made in pushing the boundaries in game design that can create opportunities for players, and nightmares for casinos. Unlike botched marketing promos, casinos will not necessarily spot game engine errors during an audit before processing a withdrawal. Even marketing errors only get spotted when so many players descend upon the offer that the casino is certain to notice that something is up.

Microgaming made a pretty big error in a new slot, The Dark Knight Rises, which had a brand new idea, and new game engine, for operating the free spins. It was a stupid error because the same idea had already been used for building pick bonuses on a couple of earlier games. It was live for about a week, but it seems it got noticed because a couple of players managed to do very well out of it.

Funnily enough, errors that favour the casino can take months to get fixed, and players who bring the error to the attention of the casino usually get fobbed off with the old "it's random, you were just unlucky" excuse for their results.

Maybe the answer is for casinos to go back to basics and emulate the original Intercasino and insist that all incomplete games be finished before a new game can be started, and have the software rigidly police this. The downside is that this would mean going back to players only being able to play one game at a time, rather like in a real land casino.

The software providers should consider offering a bounty to anyone who can demonstrate an exploit to them, a bounty that is a better option for a single player than using the bug as an exploit themselves, but cheaper for the casinos than only discovering the bug because a collection of players have been making a profit from it.
 

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