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Guts - defending their manipulation of player logs.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by crikeym8, Mar 21, 2016.

    Mar 21, 2016
  1. crikeym8

    crikeym8 Full Member PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Moorabbin
    I wish to have the gaming provider of this casino do an audit on my Guts account. In the past ive had another casino request an audit from the providers , which resolved an issue that to that other casino helped both partys rectify the issue. Now thats how you would think any sensible establishment would behave.

    But Guts seem more hell bent in trying to discredit my claims that all credits where removed from my account upon the completion of a free spins feature on a regular game. Not only do Guts claim i wasnt playing that game, they also claim the game i played prior was a progressive game.

    Now Guts want to play smart buggers here, well ive downloaded the logs, from their casino, and it clearly shows that the whole session of a game has been deleted and replaced with a progressive slot log. Which wouldnt be unusual, if it wasnt for the fact i played that game 90 mins and two machines earlier.

    I have to add, i accepted a deposit bonus, and did not go over the allowed $6.25 limit. But when this issue came up, i noticed the bonus history showing my bonus had been lost. Well, that alone could maybe be assosiated with my problem, but no, this sheila was so confident i was crapping in her ear she refused and went on defending her logs, her back end office and the information she had in front her. So wouldnt it be benificial for Guts to forward my audit request , rather than brush it off as nonsense , or is it because they are aware of their customers play logs being tunicated.

    Now Guts should know, that there are several ways for a player to determine if what they are doing is being logged correctly or players are having their account manipulated.

    Ill mention just this, the fact i was earlier playing a progressive i was able to locate the time stamp of the mini jackpots i won. Also we can use the timestamp of the single $345 win on another game and then work back from there with the bet denomination of one game which in my luck was different to the next game (EX $1 a push compared to a $1.25) , but i also logged out a few time and luckily enough i did a screen print one of those times i logged in for another chat i was having.. Also, game sessions are rarely the same period long. And to top it off, i played those crappy free spin things many casinos give at sign up at the very end after my funds disappeared thinking that might refresh the credits , many a time at casinos credits can sometimes need a push to make them update..

    Gutz may want to know, An issue at another casino 18 months ago was taken seriously by that casino and was possible for them to rectify loyalty points that stalled or only updated at certain times or updated points on a casino linked to them . After many weeks it was proved that because i had another account at one of their other casinos with the same user details was the reason for the error. It also stopped members from creating alias names in the micro gaming tournaments section.


    I wasnt sure if to place all the screen shots in here yet, or casino banking logs , play logs, screen shots, netlimiter connection logs, my routers, my banks deduction logs, paycash purchase receipts, paycash usage logs for deposits or the fact that GUTZ own software clearly showing my last game played for the night was the same game they state i never played.


    Just to show what i played there last.

    Guts - defending their manipulation of player logs.: last.jpg,Mar 21, 2016
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  2. Mar 21, 2016
  3. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    I'm a Canucklehead
    I'd suggest, if you can't readily rectify this with a rep via pm, and you feel in this case, you are 100% correct, look into a PAB - since GUTS is accredited here, you can be sure maxd will approach the casino and look into both sides unbiasedly.
     
  4. Mar 21, 2016
  5. mac72

    mac72 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    gamble
    Location:
    n ireland
    I for one would be very interested to see the proofs of the conflicting information.
     
  6. Apr 3, 2016
  7. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Narnia
    It's your word against the casino's but the casino has logs. They have more evidence to support their claim.

    "...well ive downloaded the logs, from their casino, and it clearly shows that the whole session of a game has been deleted and replaced..."
    You state that the logs show clear evidence of manipulation. Do you have evidence to support this? I.e. a screenshot showing the clearly manipulated logs?

    "So wouldnt it be benificial for Guts to forward my audit request , rather than brush it off as nonsense..."
    It sounds like you want a 3rd party to verify the authenticity of Guts' game logs.
    I am not too sure if Guts offers that option.


    Mate, from what I've read, I think it's likely you just forgot how much credit you had. :thumbsup:
    And that can be an easy thing to do at Guts because there's some delay in the actual credit you have and the credit you see in the top right corner.
    And that's where Guts is at fault; having a delay on the credit updating can confuse people.
     
  8. Apr 4, 2016
  9. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

    Occupation:
    .
    Location:
    .
    If you were in the UK you could make a subject access request and demand all information and data on you and your account for that session. If they were to have deliberately altered it because you asked for it that would be a serious criminal offence.

    But I think you live in Australia? Is there any similar law there? There probably is.
     
  10. Apr 4, 2016
  11. Guts - Yits

    Guts - Yits Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    Malta
    Hi there crikeym8, I've asked CS for internal chat logs - if any inadequate response was provided I'll check into it. On your individual account notes, I can see an agent saying there was a dispute about game payouts, and that logs were checked and seem to be correct - and that it was a bit hard to understand the exact accusation when you contacted them. If that's not the case, we'll get to the bottom of it.

    Just to get this straight, as I cannot ascertain exactly what games you claim to have or not have played, with the information you wrote down here? Are you claiming you played only Jewel Blast? Or that your winnings from there were voided? Please outline in a few bullet points what you think exactly happened. Please do not claim we have manipulated logs (we are not a malevolent secret society of anarchic hackers, I assure you)- kindly just outline exactly in clear terms what you believe has happened. If it makes it easier for you, I can even give you a phone call upon request, and we can talk it over directly.

    The screenshot you post is indeed of Jewel Blast, and in the "last played" section it states only Jewel Blast was played by yourself. However, we are experiencing problems with that "last played" section of late and many accounts, my own test account included, are displaying incorrect data there. With your permission, I can impersonate your account login, by portaling through your account to verify if the "last played" section matches with your exact log to see if this is affecting you? In any case, the most accurate way of checking your recent activity is by going to "my account" -- > "transactions" and filtering through there. The last played feature is being looked into.

    In any case, I can see from your game logs you played jewel blast but not at the end of your session - you did apparently play some other titles (I won't detail what they were publicly, unless you ask me to) of which some were progressive. Your screenshot is taken at 20:48 20/03 UTC, A full 7 hours and 10 minutes after you lost your real funds + bonus funds and completed your session, and had not played any real money wagers since that point.

    So, to sum up:

    1) The last spin recorded on Jewel blast was during your first deposit bonus wagering, before you carried on to play the aforementioned other games. It was a $5 bet, from which you won $44.20. You had a locked balance of $405.20 at that stage. The date and times are in UTC, screenshot is provided. If last played displays that game only, we apologise for that, but you explicitly claim that you never played any subsequent game - so we go to the next stage and see that...

    2) Your logs then show that you went on to play a netent game, wherein you won a further few hundred dollars.

    3) and then you went on to play 2 microgaming progressive jackpot games, got your balance up close to $1,000 and continued to wager with you locked funds - unfortunately, you went on a losing streak after getting your balance up high, and terminated playing one of those progressive jackpots at 13:32:28 UTC on 20/03. You had $0.25 left in your balance at that stage.

    4) You managed an additional 9 spins on starburst with said $0.25, before ending at a flat $0.00 at exactly 13:38:33 UTC.

    5) You deposited a further 4 times in the 8 days following the events you describe here, and duly claimed a deposit bonus on each of these transactions. This is despite claiming that you were cheated on the 20th (correct me if I'm wrong about that - it's just what seems to be the claim presented here as well as to customer support) and that we manipulate logs by deleting data and falsely attributing wagering to games you never touched? It is, however, true according to our logs that you refrained from playing the aforementioned Microgaming progressive slots during these subsequent bonus wagers. You did not, however, play Jewel Blast during this subsequent period either.


    To sum up:

    1) I am not saying that something may not have gone wrong, I know that sometimes stuff like that can happen and would like to verify it 100%.

    2) If you want an official response from Quickspin, Netent and Microgaming coupled with our internal logs, that is your prerogative and we have no problem requesting just that from those 3rd party providers, whose logs we have absolutely no control over and cannot be manipulated by ourselves.

    3) We are not crooks nor do we manipulate logs intentionally to put random Australian punters at a disadvantage for absolutely no good reason - all it would mean is we would lose our license, me and all my colleagues would lose our livelihoods and live on a meagre dole allowance until we resettle and - last but not least - it would make us scumbags. Logic defies this accusation - if logs have gotten mangled in any way, we would not hide it but investigate it and rectify it.

    4) If you wish to PAB about this, I prefer if you do it after we take on the above points and you remain unsatisfied - but whether you choose to do it now or later I am supportive of your choice, but must stress that all evidence I have at hand indicates that there are no log discrepancies - not to mention that you carried on playing multiple times after the incident took place, and that the IPs and and 3rd party data all add up at first sight.

    If you wish to receive a phone call, please do let me know. I assure you we'll clarify whatever is or isn't amiss.

    BR

    Yits




     

    Attached Files:

    9 people like this.
  12. Apr 6, 2016
  13. crikeym8

    crikeym8 Full Member PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Moorabbin
    I decided to play a couple of times and this is what if found to be the case. Should I win a free spin feature on a game and not start them and go to another game, and then when I decide to come back to that game and play off the free spins, however long I end up playing the game then the session is not restarted, but instead added to the previous session in which I left. So whatever the case, there are serious issues regarding the session timestamps and how they are allocated. I have not seen this type of issue at other casinos, AND YES< that's the way I play, I like grouping up spins on a couple games and coming back later on.


    So whatever the case, the logs displayed, cannot be taken seriously. And besides, What happened to my winnings from the free spins feature??? GUTS says I played them back, but in reality, when last free spin ended the system reset I lost all credits.
     
  14. Apr 6, 2016
  15. scarletmuse

    scarletmuse Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Lady of Leisure
    Location:
    Perth
    I was very curious to view this thread just now and have actually reread it couple of times! Given Guts' reputation on CM and also in my own experience, I was intrigued to see the details. Though, I am by no means a high roller VIP of Guts but I do play there a little bit and have so far found all aspects from service/gameplay/banking etc pretty smooth, efficient, friendly and enjoyable.

    Obviously I'm not in, nor have ever been in your boat crikeym8, so I am not directly commenting on your situation or making assumptions, nor offer advice or knowledge on the matter. I hope you find a resolution of sorts.

    But it's really gotta be said that the standout of this thread is Yits' response and what a credit to the customers and the casino you are.

    Irrespective of who is right/wrong or whatever, to see Yits effort with a detailed, calm and non-assuming response giving the customer the benefit of the doubt and going beyond to provide support following such a poorly explained, accusatory, angry and blameful complaint is a great example of a casino proving I reckon you could trust them and that aren't in the habit of manipulating anything. If anything, your comments use more manipulation-threats, demands and such. Even your habits online could be viewed negatively with the switching back and forth gameplay between slots/sessions/screengrabs etc. Also, why would any legitimate casino choose to dodgy up your logs in particular-where is the value in that? It's not like it's 6 figures or anything

    When asked for dot point clarification, the comment back lacks any form of real structure that could help solve this issue, nor demonstrate any manners such as a "thank you". Regardless of your opinion and belief of the truth, to be honest, I'd be bloody grateful to have a complaint taken this seriously and politely if I had straight out berated them on here over a few hundred bucks.

    Gosh, I have had genuine complaints/issues in the past with some sites that I have patiently, politely detailed and explained via email/PM etc kindly requested assistance and maintained good rapport throughout conversations that have received much less reply than you got, if any at all. I am still waiting on one right now but I guess my own tactic is more you catch more flies with honey.

    Good on you Yits, very professional and hope this gets sorted out smoothly!
     
    3 people like this.
  16. Apr 6, 2016
  17. crikeym8

    crikeym8 Full Member PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Moorabbin
    Mate, you where not on the receiving end of chat conversation on the day. Maybe the support staffer was having a bad day, maybe she actually believed what she was spruking, but to state that she has dealt with similar situations like this before and my claims have no merit, well after that, I don't really give a rats ass if I come across as a little brutal. If it was handled better, if she actually took the issue seriously, if she had of offered to have someone look into it then this post wouldn't have made it to paper. I can post all sorts of evidence and rub it right in, but the point of this post is to have it looked into. I have a pretty good idea where the fault or bug lies. And it is a bug, or a combination of playthrough %% requirerments and other factors. Untill then, maybe hold back your boot kissing until you get all the facts.
     
  18. Apr 6, 2016
  19. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    On a side note, you are not doing yourself any favours by doing this, more so if you have an active bonus in play.

    It is a big 'No No' at most, if not all casinos these days under the 'Un-finished Bets' T&C, (for obvious reasons)

    Winnings can (and have been from what I hear/read) be voided by doing this. Tricks like this in the past have also contributed to our ever growing list of 'dis-allowed' or zero contribution games which we hear of daily.

    No malice, no accusations, just a 'heads up' just in case ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
    5 people like this.
  20. Apr 6, 2016
  21. Mouche12

    Mouche12 Kitty Lover PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Translator and facilities manager
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Hi crikeym8, but why not discuss this further with Yits, on the phone as he suggested, or provide a more detailed explanation? I would like to know too what exactly has happened and how it will be resolved (and resolved it will be, knowing Guts). Keep us posted!
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Apr 6, 2016
  23. scarletmuse

    scarletmuse Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Lady of Leisure
    Location:
    Perth
    Hi jonmincher, Well said. I also wanted to thank you for clarifying the 'Unfinished Bets' T&C for my own knowledge actually! That gave a name to the 'thing' I had initially wanted to include in my original post when I mentioned chopping and changing games all the time but I wasn't sure of exactly what it was or how to articulate it. But now I know, that is the experience I had months ago and at the time I did not realise it was a rule per se. I was watching my balance when I hit that final spin knowing I had finally met the WR when suddenly it just dropped from $1400 down to about $9. I frantically screengrabbed and reread the fine print and searched all the info, cleared my cache whatever I could do to fix it. So, after speaking with LiveChat, it turned out a game was still open in Gemix. I had played the day before for a few spins when the page had actually crashed and internet/server connection errors had forced it to close and I wasn't enjoying it anyway so I just moved on, forgot about it and continued playing as usual. I wasn't even aware of the unfinished round and that it could affect my winnings. Thankfully I was able to reload the game, let the round finish and my balance returned! But as you said, easy for it to be voided or potentially even labelled bonus abuse perhaps? I also thought progressives were usually disallowed on most bonuses, some sites don't even let you play them or a warning box appears before opening a non-contribution game. All the best to crikeym8 and resolving his case.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Apr 7, 2016
  25. scarletmuse

    scarletmuse Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Lady of Leisure
    Location:
    Perth
    Firstly 'mate', please do not patronise me with your condescending reply. Interpreting constructive criticism and honest feedback must be lost on you along with the ability to clearly string together a valid and cohesive argument to actually clarify the issue you have gone through.


    I clearly stated that I was not making assumptions on your situation and I wished you well in your efforts to try take down a large, accredited, trusted casino. I also said I am not nor have been in your situation, therefore do not know the facts to offer credible advice instead I simply wanted to put forward my take on what I gathered from the thread. And to be frank, without the 'facts' and intricate I.T/intelligence data and knowledge that you possess, it read to me like a genuine attempt on Guts' behalf to rationally investigate and discuss your claims alongside slurs and complaints from a disgruntled punter. Yits took the time to put your activities into a descriptive, timely and clear format-as opposed to the usual copy and paste with no real insight and you didn't appear to have the courtesy to reciprocate his efforts.

    Since you don't "give a rat's arse" and think anyone not protesting beside your imaginary picket line is simply "boot kissing" also makes it look very grudge-like on your behalf. Also, 'mate', I am sorry but it would be hard for anybody who hasn't personally experienced the same phenomena you have had with Guts to indeed 'get all the facts' when they are presented in such an incoherent, inconsistent manner.

    I am glad I was not at the receiving end of the chat conversation and sympathise for the rep if your approach to chat was similar to this thread. They are there to provide support and help for us when the usual resolutions fail and we need personal service to sort it out as opposed to an FAQ or such. Yes, some sites do have pretty average assistance staff that don't seem helpful or rely on copy/paste to drive the solution but you were fortunate enough to have Yits' efforts offered to you. No matter what the situation, that doesn't give anyone the authority to be plain rude. If your claims are genuine and indeed are some deeper manipulation scandal-do you really think the chat support crew on any site would be equipped to handle such claims? Being a CM member you should know that when chat reps can't or don't help and traditional support/resolution tactics fail, that there are other appropriate avenues available to you-offered thanks the hard work and dedication of those behind this site-in which to seek guidance and rectify problems before spurting grievances publicly..And given the info on hand, these could also potentially end up being false claims of misconduct that proves a tantrum-esque response to losing your money. I have visited some dodgy sites in the past and read some pretty vague T&Cs but I think Guts has a little more going for it than some scheming conman hacking into players accounts. Again, all the best to you and if you have uncovered some major fault, well done and thanks for calling it out and preventing it from disadvantaging others in future, but really, calm down. Respect the support offered to you and address it like a mature adult who can work together with others amd provide relevant information for the best possible solution for all instead of akin to a soapbox warrior renegade with a vendetta.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Apr 7, 2016
  27. crikeym8

    crikeym8 Full Member PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Moorabbin
    To be honest I have never seen any terms relating or banning unfinished bets or what I call free game storage. I just did a search of 32red and other sites and they only state that any unfinished multi games must be completed next time you sign in. But there is another problem with that rule , what about playing four screens and four games at once?? Wouldn't the terms be breached by failing to finish of games on games that are idol?
    Personaly I see no problem with it. Ive still spent the same amount trying to get free games, so why shouldn't I use them when it suits me?? But ike I said, I cant find any casino terms that ban it. However some casinos wont allow you to start another game without completing previous. Thanks for letting me know thou. Interesting.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Apr 7, 2016
  29. crikeym8

    crikeym8 Full Member PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Moorabbin
    Took your advice m8. will chat with him on fone, cheers
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Apr 7, 2016
  31. scarletmuse

    scarletmuse Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Lady of Leisure
    Location:
    Perth
    That was my experience too crikeym8-I could not find any such T&C that explained what had happened when it did and when I resolved it via LiveChat I didn't think to question it as I had a few connection issues throughout all of my gameplay and I just chalked it up to that, glad to have my balance back to the extra digits:cool:

    But then jonmincher's explanation summed it up and I realised!

    I do have a little worry sometimes and I echo your thoughts relating to your points about free games and bonus usage. I never play until I am clear and confident on all requirements and do my utmost not to lessen my chances of winning/cashing out/earning loyalty and so forth. But what if somehow, maybe I might play something or click some link or whatever--all in good faith and then later find out there is a clause somewhere that would classify that action as fraud or abuse and then be denied the winnings/right to membership or whatnot!

    As for multiple games at once, a luxury I have no experience with, my computer is a bit of a relic and can't handle it at all, so usually stick to one:rolleyes:

    Hope your chat went well with Guts or will go well if it is still pending!
     
  32. Apr 7, 2016
  33. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Imagine the scenario.....

    You open a new or existing casino account and deposit the most you can afford, also at the same time taking a nice 100% deposit match.

    Lets say you deposit £200 so now have a healthy balance of £400 before any bets are made or you start to play.

    You now open game 'A' and set your stake to a £2 spin (which even for 'none Hi rollers' is realistic with this starting balance)

    Spin until the 3 scatters drop/feature triggers and then exit the game.

    You do this for 10 or more games, making a note as you go and now have 10 bonus rounds at £2 a spin ready to go!

    If you play them out you still have a huge wagering requirement ahead of you and chances are with the house edge and if some of your 10+ features pay poor you won't benefit as good as you could.

    You decide not to play them out and leave them, but play 'normal' with the rest of your balance and bust out.

    Your associated wagering will now be cleared (zeroed out)

    You now return to the 10+ games and play out the features/bonus rounds, all winnings are now straight cash with no wagering and fully withdrawable.

    Something the casinos can allow - I think not!
     
    5 people like this.
  34. Apr 7, 2016
  35. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    All easy to find out and of course not allowed :rolleyes:

    Guts Bonus T & C 's, paragraph 19

    Winnings from "free spin" or "bonus" features initiated with bonus funds but completed after the bonus has been wagered, lost or forfeited will be removed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    4 people like this.
  36. Apr 7, 2016
  37. scarletmuse

    scarletmuse Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Lady of Leisure
    Location:
    Perth
    Ahh..

    The scenario and corresponding T&C make absolute sense but, in my example of the balance dropping due to the open game-there were actually no FS rounds awaiting play.. Live chat simply instructed to load the game and close it again and all should return to normal. I did ask her if there was any issue/reason for it and if I needed to play a spin or so to continue and she said no, can just close immediately. When I opened it, it was a normal game with nothing on the wins/reels/balance etc. And to be honest, I didn't really care after it resolved my issue once I had my hard-earned winnings (it had been a very looong weekend :laugh: ) And the I.T errors I assumed caused it didn't make me think that particular T&C was applicable in my instance. Hmm.

    I almost would of thought it possible, that if a user did this, then when FS round game was loaded, some sort of pop-up warning and disallow the play like you sometimes get when you open a game that is excluded or use a new reward at the same time etc etc.
     
  38. Apr 7, 2016
  39. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    I didn't think it would apply to you scarletmuse.

    My post was directed to "crikeymeight" as he seem to have that play style. I am surprised his winnings were not confiscated on previous occasions when playing with a bonus :eek:
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    2 people like this.

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