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Guts & Betspin

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by theslotsking, Jul 21, 2016.

    Jul 21, 2016
  1. theslotsking

    theslotsking Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    it
    Location:
    Australia
    Hi all,

    ** Not a complaint but a question**

    Last year I closed my account at Guts due to self exclusion. I was not aware of the relationship between Betspin and Guts. While my account was closed at Guts I had made deposits at Betspin and subsequently lost. Five months later Betspin closed my account once they realised my Guts account was closed.

    Both of my accounts are now reopened. I spoke with a csr at Guts who advised had I won at Betspin while my Guts account was closed my winnings would have been void and no deposits should have been made at Betspin. I was told to contact Betspin.

    Spoke to a rep at Betspin who advised had I won the winnings would have been paid and I could have kept playing at Betspin with no issues up until Betspin closed my account.

    I am not after a refund of the deposits I made at Betspin but the whole thing makes no sense as I am receiving mixed messages from Guts and Betspin.

    Anyone else had any similar experiences?

    Thanks
     
  2. Jul 21, 2016
  3. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK mmawardee CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    Scores, dozens, hundreds, gazillions of them :eek: :rolleyes:

    It has been more than a pain in the b*tt for over 1 year and no casino group had a clue how to correctly handle SE's, nor a plan how to implement procedures to automatically prevent players from signing up and playing at a "sister site", nor a common way of handling cases where it was detected too late, mostly after the player submitted a withdrawal.

    The UKGC states clearly:

    - SE has to be for a minimum of 6 months and across all casinos in the same group.
    - Should a player still manage to sign up and play then the casino has to void all bets/winnings/losses and reinstate the account as if no bets were made. (in my and most CM members view this means you are left with the deposit value which should be refunded)
    - most casinos refunded the deposits, some didn't by sneaking in some words into their T&C's

    However, in the past weeks MT Secure Trading Ltd. (Guts/Betspin/Rizk/Instacasino etc) implemented automatic crosschecks within their group which prevents players from making a deposit in the first place if they are SE'ed at a sister site. Took some time but they finally have something in place.

    All will be different once the UKGC introduces the central SE data base (planned for 2017) which all UK licensed casinos have to sign up to. This will mean that a SE at one casino will SE you from all UKGC licensed casinos for the chosen period, no matter what casino group they are part of. The onus will be then on the player to think very carefully before executing a SE .
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
    2 people like this.
  4. Jul 21, 2016
  5. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    True as Harry says about MT Secure Trading doing the auto cross check which is a good thing for those that do SE.

    As for the OP I think its clear what Betspin were saying based on how things were back then. Nothing really to be confused about.

    They have been numerous cases at other groups where players who are SEd from 1 site within a group found themselves denied winnings
    at the point of cash out. But there is no legislation saying players who are SEd and somehow join within a group while on SE can not be paid as a far as I know.

    All sites in MT Secure Trading group are first rate never had issues with any of them. Support though does vary some being better than others.
     
    2 people like this.
  6. Jul 21, 2016
  7. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK mmawardee CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    Complete loophole in the UKGC regulation:

    - no rule that winnings cannot be paid
    - no direct or clear rule that deposits shall be returned

    The regulation only clearly states that bets and winnings or losses associated with those bets shall be voided and the account returned to its original balance.

    So plenty of wiggle room for inventive casino operators.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Jul 21, 2016
  9. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    True ... but as said many times by others. People should only SE in cases where they do have a gambling problem.
    TAB I do use this but would never SE these days. So many getting caught up in this web ...

    swings both ways though as they are some players who will try use to get depos back. So clear set legislation is obvs needed on this.
    And as we hit 2017 with the new SE rules I think it will be covered. But also 2017 wait for the slew of posts from people suddenly not
    being able to gamble anywhere in the UK because of the UKGC site wide closure for those who SE. gonna be an interesting one to follow for sure.

    I will have the popcorn out for sure !
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Jul 31, 2016
  11. The Blue Anchor

    The Blue Anchor Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    I am having a similar problem.

    I SE'd from Guts and Betspin in early 2015 for 1 year (or so I had thought)

    I re-opened my a/c with Guts last month, given my SE period had expired and Guts were happy to do so. I played, deposited and then took a break until tomorrow (pay day!).

    In the meantime I tried to open an a/c with Rizk. However, they blocked me and told me given I my SE from Betspin was permanent (not a year as I had thought) - I was blocked from all MT SecureTrade sites.

    This is all very confusing and I have emailed Guts for clarification as I fully intended on playing again with them tomorrow. I would prefer to keep my Guts a/c open but if what Rizk is saying is correct, then I guess they should never have re-opened it last month.

    I now only TAB on sites not SE - however, the SE policy between sister sites really should be consistent.
     
  12. Aug 1, 2016
  13. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK mmawardee CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    Best is to PM the Rizk rep, the famous CaptainRizk :D .... i am sure he will look into it to see what periods exactly you SE'ed and act accordingly.

    Should you have done the permanent SE at Betspin, which is 5 years, then there won't be much anyone can do, neither Rizk, nor Guts. But Guts would have to return your deposits from last month.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Aug 1, 2016
  15. me_and_ed

    me_and_ed Meister Minion CAG MM

    Occupation:
    Selling out
    Location:
    Vancouver
    My accounts at Guts and Betspin are closed, had no issues depositing and withdrawing at Rizk.
     
  16. Aug 1, 2016
  17. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK mmawardee CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    The SE (fiasco) rule that a SE from one sister site will SE you from all group sites only applies to UK players as that is in the UKGC regulations. You in Canada play under the MGA regulations which are much less restrictive.

    And you are saying "closed". Does it mean you closed them or your SE'ed? That would be quite a difference.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 1, 2016
  19. me_and_ed

    me_and_ed Meister Minion CAG MM

    Occupation:
    Selling out
    Location:
    Vancouver
    I never use those ugly words in the same sentence so you may have a point there, and I did not know about the other rules...:thumbsup:
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Aug 1, 2016
  21. Captain Rizk

    Captain Rizk Accredited Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Bullshit battling Superhero
    Location:
    Malta
    Hey Blue Anchor - can you PM me your e-mail address that you used to sign up at Rizk and i can check what is happening here.
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Aug 1, 2016
  23. The Blue Anchor

    The Blue Anchor Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    What I want to do is carry on playing. My a/c with Guts has re-opened today but I am waiting to clarify with them before playing again - Guts are quite careful with this, so I'd be surprised if they did make a mistake in re-opening my a/c. Have also PMd the Rizk rep as suggested. thanks!

    update - after logging in to Guts and going on live chat to clarify, they have re-blocked my a/c. No answer from them yet on what the situation is. Glad I didn't play again before going on chat - they really need to sort this out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  24. Aug 1, 2016
  25. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    Problem is if by mistake you did ask for a life time exclusion no way will they re-open it. Even if it was a genuine over sight. SE is causing all kinds of problems this year for many. And its clear SE in the past was used by many not so much in relation to gambling problems but rather either getting pissed at loosing and hitting the SE button or wanting simply to take a break. Thats why SE should only be used in the case of gambling problems. For anything else its TAB or DL.

    But not everyone reads forums so tons of players wont have a clue. Some real education needed on this in general so that players everywhere understand exactly the implications of SE. It would also aid the casinos in the long run whos lists of players unable to deposit due to SE must be growing longer by the day. Maybe a few less adverts on the "when the fun stops STOP" < on almost all UK casino adverts these days ;) And a more educational approach needed to inform players what they can do to enjoy gambling safely without finding themselves locked out.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Aug 1, 2016
  27. The Blue Anchor

    The Blue Anchor Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    The points is Guts did re-open my a/c and were quite happy for me to play there. They have only now blocked my a/c because I asked them to clarify what Rizk had told me.

    I appreciate I should be repaid my deposit (around £500) if Guts did re-open in error last month, but I'd much rather not be SE'd and keep the a/c open.

    Guts have now said they will revert in 24-48 hours.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Aug 2, 2016
  29. Guts - Yits

    Guts - Yits Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    Malta
    Hey,

    Was just alerted of this thread - been looking at your account and liaising with CS managers & central admin to dig.

    This is what we have surmised, thus far:

    1. You excluded yourself from Guts on the 12th of February 2015 - for a 6-month duration. This was when Guts was still on the Every Matrix platform, and there were no automated API calls to trigger the exclusion on the newly founded, and partly teething, internal system on Betspin.

    2. You registered on Betspin on 27th of February 2015 - shortly after they launched. You shouldn't have been able to - and told a CS agent exactly that in chat.

    3. Betspin did some digging, spoke to guts to check everymatrix records and saw you had indeed self-excluded for 6 months. Shortly after, you were naturally sent a full refund - BUT, here's where things screwed up as far as I can see: The team at betspin (as I said, they had literally just launched, were teething) implemented self-exclusion on your betspin account, but instead of marking it as 6 months, they made it permanent. Back then, Betspin was the only casino on our shared platform, and some of these cross brand triggers did not carry across perfectly after launch of more casinos on the platform (Guts included) After-effects of this culminated in some of the really problematic cases that caused a bit of a storm on CM a good few months back, most of which were eventually resolved, and refunded in full where applicable.

    4. You actively requested your Guts account to be re-opened, following the correct procedure (i.e. waiting the necessary time, and actively writing in, for the manager to review and approve) - and got it reopened recently. You played and lost 3 deposits on July 1st 2016 - whereupon you actively excluded yourself for another month.

    5. I'm a bit in the dark on your Rizk details, I'm sure the captain can jump in and provide an update soon.

    Let's wait on the captain - and I'll escalate internally too. All will be updated on thread, and no matter what, we shall strive to do the right thing - I think most people on forum can vouch that we do that when we do indeed do something wrong, so please bear with us and rest assured all shall be handled. Apologies for any hassle caused.

    BR

    Yits

     
    3 people like this.
  30. Aug 2, 2016
  31. Captain Rizk

    Captain Rizk Accredited Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Bullshit battling Superhero
    Location:
    Malta
    For Rizk, because you had an active Self Exclusion at Betspin then your account was immediately blocked as it should have been when you tried to register as you have a permanent self exclusion at Betspin which is why your Rizk account remains closed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Sep 29, 2016
  33. adamtheaddict

    adamtheaddict Well-Known Member

    Occupation:
    fruits
    Location:
    Kent
    I must give a quick shout out to the chat rep at betspin, i think his name was Marius or something close to that.
    Deposited money and it dissapeared into the system somewhere and got stuck, the bank said it had gone but chat reps knew they hadn't receieved it yet & suggested i wait until they do so they can then refund it. Which is fair enough, you can't see what you can't see. Only it does leave me very short to many any further deposits anywhere.

    The chat rep sent it to the processing department for inquiries, but while waiting for a reply went out of his way while still in chat to try and find the problem. and did so successfully, and pushed the stuck transaction through. and now the deposit shows up on my betspin account.

    They really are a superb outfit. a big Thanks to that CS rep for going out of his way where many casino's would just leave it to the processing team to get back to me.
     

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