Guess Who's Cashout Terms Include a 15X WR On All Deposits

[bernynhel]

GUESS THE CASINO

The following pasted from actual casino's T&Cs under cashouts:

Also take note that any player that deposits and requests a withdrawal without having wagered AT LEAST 15 times the amount deposited will have their withdrawal declined.

I've never seen this until I went to cash out and was blocked from using eWalletXpress (my deposit method) due to "no faxback on file". In the cashier area there was a link to view and print a faxback form in the deposit area for using credit cards but no mention of it for ewallets.


The following is what happened with Live Chat from the same joint - upon closing chat no transcript was available:

Live Chat said the faxback wouldn't be required and the cashout wouldn't be blocked once ID documents were rec'd, which I had emailed earlier. But that "withdrawals were only processed if submitted between 12:00am and 11:59pm EST Mondays" so I go read the T/C and nothing about Monday payouts but I then saw the 15X dealio! I go back to the Live Chat and the person there had also typed that deposits were required to be wagered 40X before cashouts were accepted!! So I pasted the 15X line from the T/C and Live Chat says "where do you see that?" I say "in you T/C under "cashouts" and I pasted the URL. Live Chat says, " OK"'

Can anyone guess where this is? Hint: a RTG platform site

Or know another casino's T/Cs ridiculous enough to top it? I depoisted $75 and was just cashing out $150, I thought! Also, the max cashout amount is $1,000.00 per month!

 

[Rusty]

I don't know but it seems the Casinos have learned a new trick to deny payouts.
See the warning on Party Casino and then the fiasco with Casino Cubed.
2XWR on a deposit is plenty enough.
5x or more is a scam.

 

[cynthial]

Absurd, simply absurd. They don't deserve the title "casino". We need a new description for places like this. Something like Cachino or Fleece-ino. Do tell the name of this clip joint so me and mine can stay clear please.

 

[bernynhel]

Absurd, simply absurd. They don't deserve the title "casino". We need a new description for places like this. Something like Cachino or Fleece-ino. Do tell the name of this clip joint so me and mine can stay clear please.

lol Yeah, huh! The site is Saturn Bingo, bingo and RTG casino. Here's what the CEO had to say about it:

From: ceo@saturnbingo.com
To: (deleted by bernynhel)
Subject: FW: ID Documents Attached and Faxback Request - Account: (deleted by bernynhel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:11:11 +0800


Dear William

Thank you for sending us your documentation which looks to be in order.

Wagering requirements on your cash deposit are primarily in place to protect our business from the high level of fraud directed toward online gaming sites, and from which no protection or accountability is accepted by either the issuing banks , ewallet or credit card companies.

As a business we need to have policies in place that limit our liability in relation to processing fraud, requiring player turnover is a procedure that in a small way helps us do that.

We don't require 2 weeks to process an ewallet withdrawal we simply mention that fact because in our experience ewallet companies that handle US based gaming clients have been known to take that long.

Its always best to read a sites polices before deciding to make a deposit and play, perhaps this site is not for you, but we are a long standing and respected player in online gaming and make every effort to accommodate our players, however player turnover requirements (playover turnover requirements?) however erroneous they may seem, is an area that we require our players to conform to.

Best Regards
James
CEO

And my reply:

Dear ceo@saturnbingo.com:

Your "player tournover requirements" do not seem erroneous in the least. I know exactly why they are in place. That level of WR, generally attached to match deposit bonuses, is generally why I do not opt to participate in them. A 15x requirement for straight deposits is, to say the least, unique. I have set out to determine just how unique by throwing it out in a discussion here:

Link Outdated / Removed

Whether or not you require 2 weeks to process a cashout, do so solely on Mondays between 12:00 AM and 11:59 PM require a 15X or 40X WR are all moot points. I simply played back the balance, my first and last. Yes, the site is not for me.

(deleted by bernynhel)
Los Angeles

That'll definitely be the last time I don't read the T&Cs before fooling around with a site I don't know. I didn't before depositing knowing full well that all
kinds of sillyness could exist but not that sillly!

 

[chuchu59]

They live on Saturn all right. WTF? 2 weeks processing time for cashouts. Min withdrawl $100 although the max you can win on their $25 free chip is $50 and to withdraw that you have to deposit at least $50 and wager it 40 times. 15X WRs on deposits without bonuses. They dont have to worry about money laundering because there isnt going to be much to launder after wagering 15x your deposit. These have got to be some of the most predatory terms I have ever seen. It's a wonder they ever get any business.

 

[AussieDave]

It's a wonder they ever get any business.

I'd say customers play with them until they get to do a withdrawal and then hit this brick wall.

I'm just as guilty as other peeps for not read T&C's.

This just brings it home to why one has to take that extra 10 - 15min to read this stuff before depositing.


Cheers
T

 

[bernynhel]

I'd say customers play with them until they get to do a withdrawal and then hit this brick wall.

I'm just as guilty as other peeps for not read T&C's.

This just brings it home to why one has to take that extra 10 - 15min to read this stuff before depositing.


Cheers
T

Man, I learned my lesson. As soon as Live Chat said WDs were Mondays only after my WD didn't go through, I made a bee line straight to T&Cs and when I went to type in Live Chat that there wasn't anything in the T&Cs about Monday only WDs, I saw that Live Chat had added the 40X WR baloney on all deposits after I just got through reading 15X in the T&C - which I thought was already nuts as is - I knew right then and there that this joint was WAY too deep in the monkey business for me to get any more involved with. Then the CEO emails me and tries to play it off like this BS is business as usual. Yeah, I deposited and played at quite a few places without reading the T&Cs - usually after hearing good things about a site here from CM members - but to deposit and then find out I dove into that kind a vat-o-s**t. Well, ya never know so now I do and serves me right!

 

[liquuid_fusion]

I thought Party Casino was pretty bad for encouraging more gambling ("you do not seem to have wagered enough, sir") but this just takes the piss. You wouldn't expect much more from a rogue RTG though.

 

[rockycatt]

ill never load that crapper site onto my pc

 

[silkprint]

Jeepers

 

[Stovetopp]

BEWARE!!

One of the newly added accredited casino here has a 10 times initial deposit before withdrawal too...I can't remember which one because I immediately uinstalled...But it was definitely an RTG platform casino as its the only type we can play here from USA

 

[Kenny Lingus]

They live on Saturn all right. WTF? 2 weeks processing time for cashouts. Min withdrawl $100 although the max you can win on their $25 free chip is $50 and to withdraw that you have to deposit at least $50 and wager it 40 times. 15X WRs on deposits without bonuses. They dont have to worry about money laundering because there isnt going to be much to launder after wagering 15x your deposit. These have got to be some of the most predatory terms I have ever seen. It's a wonder they ever get any business.

What is truly a wonder is why a software provider would allow a casino using its software to operate under these BS terms. IMO, RTG software is the classic example of a whore business, period.

When you see stuff like this, is it any wonder that the Virtual Group or so many of the viciously rogue casinos use RTG software?

 

[jetset]

I would think this was more of an operator decision.

BTW this site is owned by Saturn Gaming out of Berkshire in the UK.

Other sites believed in the same ownership stable are:

Athenabingo.com
Aztecbingo.com
Bingoisle.com
Bingomalti.com
Koalabingo.com
Lowlimits.com
Starbingo.com

Not sure if they all have the same policy, but it would seem logical to assume they do.

Unreal....!

 

[Rusty]

I would think this was more of an operator decision.

BTW this site is owned by Saturn Gaming out of Berkshire in the UK.

Other sites believed in the same ownership stable are:

Athenabingo.com
Aztecbingo.com
Bingoisle.com
Bingomalti.com
Koalabingo.com
Lowlimits.com
Starbingo.com

Not sure if they all have the same policy, but it would seem logical to assume they do.

Unreal....!

Certainly it is an operator decision but it is up to the software providers to protect their brands.
They could choose to who they sell their software and pull the license from rogue operators - if only they had ethics.

 

[jetset]

That would be great in the best and most professional of worlds but unfortunately I don't think providers do too much policing of their licensees and their T&Cs.

That applies particularly to RTG judging by the regular hassles that come to light on these pages.

It usually has to be a pretty bad - or very public - issue for the software providers to get involved, and they would appear content to simply continue hauling in their royalties and fees rather than indulging in time-consuming patrols of their licensees' T&Cs and/or player complaint portals.

They could, of course, at least watch T&C change watchdog portals like KWblue's and the PABs here to keep a regular finger on the pulse.

That said, there are a few providers who will take action if specific issues are brought directly to their attention.

 

[chuchu59]

It may be just wishful thinking but recently there has been a steady stream of top-notch RTG casinos joining the fray. Is it pure coincidence or is the RTG software provider starting to come to their senses for the long haul. IMO they started off really badly with the Safebet seal followed by a host of rip-offs in Windows, Virtual and the Vegas Strip group. I do hope that all business will now be with the RTGs in the accredited list which is already more than a dozen and no players will ever patronise the crooks again. Actually, other than over-generous bonus offers what can they offer that the accredited ones cant?

 

[bernynhel]

Certainly it is an operator decision but it is up to the software providers to protect their brands.
They could choose to who they sell their software and pull the license from rogue operators - if only they had ethics.

Ain't it a little late to still think that RTG is concerned about their rep when The Virtual Group operates 16 RTG sites that, by now, must have tenure status on the CM Rogue Online Casino List and must certainly soon be eligible for nomination to the Rogue Online Casino Hall of Fame?

 

[KasinoKing]

It may be just wishful thinking but recently there has been a steady stream of top-notch RTG casinos joining the fray. Is it pure coincidence or is the RTG software provider starting to come to their senses for the long haul.

I think a lot of these new reputable RTGs have been born from some of the other reputable casinos who were forced out of the USA market. The vast majority will keep this strictly secret because the major brands of software do not allow their operators to have sister casinos on different software.
The classic case was Intertops who tried to do this openly, but in the end they were forced to close their old MG casino in favor of an RTG with no country restrictions.
In other words, I don't believe it's anything to do with RTG "raising their standards", though I sincerely wish it was!

KK

 

[Simmo!]

1x WR on deposits isn't unreasonable in light of the frauds that go on (once again we all suffer because of the idiots), but anything more is taking the p*ss. That's rogue-worthy practice. Plainly unethical, ridiculous and deceitful IMO.

 

[rockycatt]

thank heave we got the miester here to rouge these S.O.B'S punish the rouges and reward the fair guy's

 

[bernynhel]

...The classic case was Intertops who tried to do this openly, but in the end they were forced to close their old MG casino in favor of an RTG with no country restrictions. In other words, I don't believe it's anything to do with RTG "raising their standards", though I sincerely wish it was! KK

Then who's operating Intertops Green? Cuz I just logged in and found a $25 comp and it's still called Intertops and it's still MG. Oh. I see they're "relocating" on August 31. Nevermind!

 

[vinylweatherman]

First we had the cashable bonus. This was designed to trap your money to a WR by offering a carrot to the player (the cashable bonus).

Next came the phantom bonus. The difference here was that although a similar WR applied, you could no longer eat the carrot.

This is the next logical step. Why even bother to show a carrot to the player when you can whip out a big stick after the fact and STILL make them wager more, despite never being offered a carrot.

A WR of these magnitudes is bugger all to do with money laundering, it is about setting a -EV trap that even works on those players that avoid bonuses due to the restrictive terms they come with.

The next step would be to restrict the amount that can be deposited in one go, BAN further deposits until the balance is zero, and retain the WR on deposits without bonuses. The final piece of this new & improved rip-off would be to make the MINIMUM withdrawal greater than the MAXIMUM allowed deposit.
Players would not only have to wager an unbonused deposit, say, 15x - they would have to WIN a multiple of their initial deposit in order to keep the winnings, or even get their deposit back.

Casinos that impose WR on deposits without bonuses are going to be MORE likely to receive a "chargeback" from a player who has deposited, NOT claimed any bonus, won a little, and expects to be able to keep these winnings, and who sees this as merely a rule made up to ensure winnings can never be withdrawn. The player's case for a chargeback would be simple, they played with REAL money with little chance of receiving the winnings because the high WR would make it a mathematical improbability.

Most gaming jurisdictions would not be too keen on permitting an operator that FORCED a player to continue gambling with an initial bankroll that was 100% their own money to the extent that they were very likely to lose everything.

If casinos are so worried about exposure to fraud, WHY do some positively encourage such large initial deposits from NEW players in the first place.
Offering a bonus that maxes out only on a deposit of, say, $20000, is going to create huge exposure to fraud if it was easy for the player to get their $20000 back. Perhaps these casinos that offer bonuses for such large deposits never really intend the players to see their money again (through onerous terms and conditions), so that even if it was fraudulently deposited, the worst that happens is that they have to give back what the player lost.

 

[GGW Laurie]

I cant understand any type of W/R on a fresh (no bonus) deposit at best, just plain stupid imo.............laurie

 

[bernynhel]

I cant understand any type of W/R on a fresh (no bonus) deposit at best, just plain stupid imo.............laurie

And since I had only mentioned it in the thread starter and no one has as yet commented, I'm posting to remind everyone that in addition to the 15 WR on all fresh deposits (thanks VWM) (or 40 WR, depending on who is working in support that day) Live Chat had also informed me that Saturn Bingo cashouts may only be submitted on Mondays between 12:00 AM and 11:59 PM!!!

 

[joyceflorida]

the two casinos i know of from the saturn operation is orchid and oneclub. Why aren't these casinos rogued? They are listed on this site as "proceed with caution".