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Grand Virtual complaint

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by operarocks, Mar 19, 2006.

    Mar 19, 2006
  1. operarocks

    operarocks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    opera singer
    Location:
    Seattle
    They have stolen over $2,000 from me. Below is the complained I've filed with the OGA, who ALSO has not responded in any way shape or form to my compaints. I will be refiling another a complaint and also complaining to the Kahnawake Gaming Commision regarding this situation:

    I have created one account at what I now understand to be several "sister" casino sites. Casino Elegance, Casino Treasure, Imperial Casino, Casino Glamour, Casino Fantasy and Casino Sakana.

    I busted out on two of these sites. On Imperial Casino I managed to win around $1,400 and on Casino Elegance I won approximately $750. The casino has locked all of my six accounts and refuses to pay me either the $1,400 or the $750 I won in addition to holding a $50 deposit and a $100 deposit I made on Casino Treasure and Casino Elegance. When I contacted their customer service I was told only that the operations department had decided to permanently block my account with no explanation of why this had happened. When I responded and asked why this had happened I received this response:


    According to our record, all of your six account were created on the
    same day and received NETeller bonus.

    It's our policy that abusing the promotions by creating multiple Player
    accounts will be barred from using the Casino for life.

    Please read the following policy.

    "Abuse. Players must play as individuals and in the spirit of enjoying
    the Casino real-money Games as fun and exciting entertainment. Players
    may not abuse the promotions by creating multiple Player accounts or
    acting as part of a syndicate to defraud the Casino, nor may they cash
    out winnings without participating in legitimate real-money play and
    satisfying bonus requirements. Any Player deemed by Casino Management
    to be attempting to abuse the promotions will be barred from using the
    Casino for life. Decisions regarding abuse will be made solely by
    Casino Management and all decisions are final. Casino Management may
    and will bar Players without indicating the reason. "

    I played this group of casinos because I enjoyed the software and because I was referred to them by a friend who told me that they were very prompt in paying any winnings. I feel taken advantage of that these casinos are unethically stealing over $2,000 from me which is quite a bit of money, I'm also very disappointed because I was very excited to have won money for once playing online. I did not play any of the restricted games (I only enjoy playing blackjack really).

    I responded with:

    "I will address every aspect you point out:

    "Abuse. Players must play as individuals and in the spirit of enjoying
    the Casino real-money Games as fun and exciting entertainment. Players
    may not abuse the promotions by creating multiple Player accounts or
    acting as part of a syndicate to defraud the Casino, nor may they cash
    out winnings without participating in legitimate real-money play and
    satisfying bonus requirements. Any Player deemed by Casino Management
    to be attempting to abuse the promotions will be barred from using the
    Casino for life. Decisions regarding abuse will be made solely by
    Casino Management and all decisions are final. Casino Management may
    and will bar Players without indicating the reason. "

    I did not create multiple accounts at any of your casinos, I do enjoy playing blackjack and figured I was simply getting the best value by signing up at several sites, that was not me trying to abuse bonuses, just shopping for the best deals. I have participated 100% in real money play, I had no abusive habits such as withdrawing before all wagering requirements had been met, I did not act as part of a syndicate. You have no standing on which to say I am an abusive player. I do think however you are an abusive casino who is unwilling to pay any winners. Again, unless you can specifically tell me what I did that was against your terms and conditions (and creating an account at each of your sister casinos is NOT against you published terms and conditions as they are each their own entity) I demand that you pay me my full cashout on the two sites that I won on and refund my deposits at the other two sites where you have locked my account. I have violated no policies, and you have no right to treat me this way. It is extremely frustrating to finally win at a casino only to have them seize my money in a gangster, renegade fashion. If you wanted to exclude me from participating on your sites, you could have easily chosen to block me immediately upon signup rather than waiting to lock my account as I deposited. The creation of my additional accounts happened after my initial cashouts and should have had zero affect on the cashouts I had already requested. For all of these reasons your actions have been impolite, unethical, and incorrect.

    I alos wish to point out that you responded with CasinoLux's terms and conditions which aren't even applicable to this situation due to the fact that I did NOT open an account at Casino Lux.

    I demand that you pay me my full cashouts on the two sites I won, and refund my full deposit on the two accounts you seized my money from me. I also have noted that you have refused to provide me a phone number where I can contact a manager to discuss the situation directly. Again, if you do not pay me my full amount on my two owed cashouts and refund my deposits 100% on my other accounts, I am prepared to launch a fullscale complaint with the OGA, and post the contents of these emails and your absolute refusal to answer any of my points or provide a contact number to discuss this issue further. I insist that this be escalated directly to a supervisor or a manager, and I insist to deal with him directly and by telephone as well as email if you continue to refuse to pay me."

    Ironically, they provide a link to Casino Lux which is a casino I haven't even played at.

    It is clear that their only complaint is that I have made an account at more than one of the casinos they operate, but that is nowhere listed in their terms and conditions, nor is it clear to the player.

    It seems clear that they are taking advantage and stealing money from players because it would be very simple to block an account on sign up by running an email address, name, or street address through a database to see if any other matches exist. I used the same phone number, address, neteller account, personal information, etc on each casino and there is absolutely no way that the casino can construe that I was trying to present anyone else than myself at the casino.

    I expect my accounts to be unlocked, a full payment of all of my winnings, and a refund of my deposits on the two sites where I had not yet had an opportunity to play.

    I have already written the casino several emails and threatened to go to the OGA as well as complain on several player advocacy sites such as Casinomeister that my friend suggested. They have responded to my emails to tell me basically that I was out of luck, and they have refused multiple times to provide me with any sort of phone number to discuss the matter further, or to forward it to a manager so that I may discuss it with them.

    They will not answer any of my relevant questions, such as if they made the decision to lock the new accounts I've created, that should have no bearing on the first sites I played from that I had a pending cashout from.

    They also blatantly lied by telling me they'd reopen my first account (which would obviously include paying me my winnings) and then reneged on that offer.

    I want my full payment of my winnings and my deposits on my two locked accounts refunded. I've pitched a bitch as well, got a response to which I asked some additional questions and then got no further response.

    These guys will take your money if you give them any reason whatsoever.

    Do not play on:

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    or any other that is on Grand Virtual software.

    Their licensing agent is a joke, its been more than a month now and they haven't responded to my complaint, their customer service as detailed above is clearly terrible, and they blatantly steal deposits and winnings.
     
  2. Mar 19, 2006
  3. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    This sounds very similar to a case in which The Wizard banned Gambling Federation recently (see this week's Casinomeister News under Casino Cautions)

    I would recommend you take this up with the Grand Virtual rep on this site who has been helpful and efficient in assisting players in the past. This may be an over-hasty decision by an inexperienced Support person.

    Unless these people specify that the "multiple accounts" rule embraces every casino in their group or using their software, and not just to the more conventional "multiple accounts at one casino" then they are obliged to pay you in full (I'm assuming you have complied with the T&Cs and have no fraudulent record)

    And if they do have a rule that prohibits players from opening accounts at more than one of their casinos and/or licensees, then they need to have this upfront and in bold, along with a list of the casinos to which it applies.
     
  4. Mar 19, 2006
  5. tennis_balls

    tennis_balls Dormant account

    Occupation:
    fish n chips promoter
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    dude

    you opened an account at 6 different casinos owned by the same firm on the same day??? now that's gambling!
     
  6. Mar 19, 2006
  7. giga2

    giga2 Banned User

    Occupation:
    Household
    Location:
    israel
    They owe me money from September 2004 and I warned then that they should be avoided


    I made also one or two casinos in the group if I remember well

    I won at Casino Lux $5875 and they returned only my deposit back.


    I published my case at the winneronline.com forum and then I figured out it happened also to couple of more players from my country Israel.


    One of the player fought for his money better than me and got paid after the Casinomeister and others helped him.

    I have not got the money from them as yet and I hope now people will better believe that on large cashouts these guys are dangerous


    Here is the link to the full story at winneronline.com

    You must register/login in order to see the link.



    Do you think I still have a chance to get my winnings from them ?
     
  8. Mar 19, 2006
  9. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    :)

    Forget all about the "OGA" - it's owned by Grand Virtual - and Kahnawake too, who are an industry joke as far as "licensing" goes.

    Contact the GV rep here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/affiliatedweb.html

    ...and here's a potentially relevant thread from a dispute I had:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...d-virtual-recent-resolution-an-old-issue.html

    I'm pretty sure I know how this one will pan out, but let's wait and see what happens.
     
  10. Mar 19, 2006
  11. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK

    My tip is not to accuse a casino of being thieves, etc., when they still have $2k of your money and you want them to pay it. Feel free to abuse them after you have been paid.

    But until then, accusing them of being thieves, even if they are, is not going to help you achieve what should be your goal, that is getting your $2k back.
     
  12. Mar 20, 2006
  13. operarocks

    operarocks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    opera singer
    Location:
    Seattle
    That is good advice, except that I've been dealing with them for almost two months. I've PAB'd, complained to OGA who they are licensed through as well as the Kahanawake gaming commission, and been lied too regarding the status of my account, flat-out ignored in my last three emails, and they also refuse to provide any kind of contact number so I can discuss the situation with a manager directly. I've PM'd the Grand Virtual operator, who told me she'd look into the matter when she's done travelling. If they pay me, I'll update the thread to say so, but considering the track record of what has already happened, I feel players deserve a warning.
     
  14. Mar 20, 2006
  15. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    You've pitched a bitch?
    So what does Bryan say?
     
  16. Mar 20, 2006
  17. AffiliatedWeb

    AffiliatedWeb Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    VP of Marketing
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Status on OperaRocks

    Hey Everyone,

    Operarocks and I have communicated via private messages. I have escalated this issue to our Customer Service Manager today. I just heard about this problem today. I will be on an airplane most of tomorrow, Monday, but I should be able to follow up Monday evening (European time). I am sure it has something to do with the multiple accounts, but I will do my best to straighten it out.

    I am sorry for the delay from the Customer Service Department. I have talked with the Customer Service Manager and she is investigating the representatives that handled the matter.

    Giga 2, I looked at the winneronline posting. If you are Marcelos, we resolved that issue with Casinomeister already. The resolution is in the winneronline posting. If you are Dadoni, the last we had spoke I had recommended you pitch a bitch with Casinomeister who had the data about your case to make a decision (also in the thread). When I contacted him about it, he said he knew your username but had not heard from you. The ball is in your court. If you are neither of those individuals, I would be happy to research your problem. Please private message me with your account username or the email address on your account so I can find your information in our system.

    Best Regards,
    Jennifer Joyce
    VP of Marketing
    Affiliated Web Attractions
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  18. Mar 20, 2006
  19. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Good to see you involved with this one Jennifer, and I hope that if these allegations are true your colleague in Customer Service will be kicking ass on those members of staff who ignored this player - that's a cardinal sin when a casino has a legitimately aggrieved player.

    If the player's allegations are correct here, it seems to me that you guys need to take a very careful look at your T&Cs regarding this question of what constitutes multiple accounts.

    This player is tenacious (as he or she should be under the circumstances) and this is clearly not going to go away without management attention.
     
  20. Mar 20, 2006
  21. giga2

    giga2 Banned User

    Occupation:
    Household
    Location:
    israel
    Jennifer, I am not Marcelos nor Dadoni. My user is Kashmir at the winneronline forum link I gave

    I wish I was Marcelos who got the money from you after he complained enough.

    You haven't paid him and did not want to pay him but he complained everywhere and probably much better than me and got paid.


    Please stop with the excuses and pay my winnings.
    I did pitch a bitch and it was long ago, around half a year ago and I haven't got any reply . I don't think the casinomeister agreed with you as you say.

    Maybe he agreed on Marcelos case because you paid him

    Please pay me, at the beginning no one believed me and hopefully this time I am going to get my winnings.

    Tell me if not what did I do wrong if you decide to insist not to pay your online casino blackjack winner
     
  22. Mar 20, 2006
  23. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Heads Up

    Welcome to the forum, operarocks,

    But in doing, please let me remind you of the forum rules:


    1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts...do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

    2.2 - Do not post a complaint without notifying the appropriate casino representative by either PM or email. The casino representatives are listed here.
    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showgroups.php

    2.3 - Ensure your complaint is free from offensive or abusive language, and that the complaint is tactful and truthful. Making false claims are grounds for banishment or drawn and quartering.


    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/forum_rules.php

    I don't mean to come across as a dickhead, but you've got to keep your language in check. I've modified the title to reflect that this is a complaint and that we're not dealing with thieves. Making derogatory statements ain't the way to go in this situation.

    One of the main functions of this forum is to present player issues and to have these resolved. This can only be done if we remain cool, calm, and collected. Thanks for your understanding.

    In the meantime, I'm checking into the issues that have been presented here - to include giga2's.
     
  24. Mar 20, 2006
  25. operarocks

    operarocks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    opera singer
    Location:
    Seattle
    Well, I apologize in advance if the situation is actually resolved and they pay me, I'm just extremely frustrated after having dealt with customer service for over a month and being ignored and whatnot as detailed above. Hopefully Jennifer gets them to pay me.
     
  26. Mar 24, 2006
  27. operarocks

    operarocks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    opera singer
    Location:
    Seattle
    *partially resolved*

    So, GV owed me a total of $2312 between the six sites. The GV rep Jennifer managed to convince them to pay my winnings on the first site I played on as well as refund my deposits at all other casinos for a total of $1,300. I was paid this morning.

    I'm still short $1,000 in my opinion on one hand, on the other hand, I have $1,300 that I didn't think I'd see which I'm grateful to have.

    Overall, while I very much appreciate Jennifer's assistance (she was extremely polite, professional, courteous, and prompt with updates) and the fact that I managed to get some of what was owed to me, I can't say I recommend this casinos, they have some pretty big issues I think they need to address. Consider the following as constructive criticism and not sour grapes for not recieving a full payment:

    1.) There is a complete disconnect between the players and management.

    The only way to contact GV is through a web-form off a casino webpage. There is no contact phone number. The average response time I experienced was more than a day, and I sent by my count three emails that were simply never responded too. Jennifer stated that this was due to the one rep helping me being new. Regardless, a player should never be in this situation. In several of my emails I requested a phone number or an email from a manager. I was not provided any management information with which to discuss my situation. While I can understand not listing a phone number intitially (I used to work in a call center, its expensive, the typical call cost us $8 in total costs from facilities to labor) there certainly needs to be a more sophisiticated way to resolve advanced or escalated situations as this one clearly was. Not being able to talk to a manager is pretty much unacceptable.

    2.) Terms and Conditions:

    They could do far more to emphasize that having GV accounts from different web sits will cause you to get locked. I always read the T&C, it takes about five clicks and digging to find that information. It could easily be stated in the software, or, in the case of multiple signups, it shouldn't be that difficult to implement something that bans a user based on email or physical address. Operators of Microgaming and Playtech sites have no problems doing this, so I can't see why Grand Virtual should be different. Additionally, if they are that concerned with bonus abusers, they could simply have you email customer service for bonuses which would provide additional screening.

    3.) OGA and Kahnawake are not responsive. I had to file three different complaints with OGA and two with Kahnawake before I got a response (never got an OGA response, only Kahnawake after the third complaint a month later).

    4.) Customer unfriendly policies.

    Even if you do decide someone is a bonus abuser as opposed to having a misunderstanding about the T&C (as I did). Clearly the more friendly customer policy is to refund that person's deposits rather than simply locking up the account and not returning either the deposit or any winnings. Who knows if I even would have been this persistent in being paid if they had at least been reasonable enough to return my deposits at the onset of this fiasco.

    Again, thanks to Jennifer for her help in reopening my first account, although I think it's a shame that I doubt I will continue to play here.
     
  28. Mar 24, 2006
  29. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    Exactly what was the reason given for payment but on only ONE account? You've hinted at the reason in your point 2, but I'd like a clarification.
     
  30. Mar 25, 2006
  31. AffiliatedWeb

    AffiliatedWeb Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    VP of Marketing
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Hi Caruso,

    The reason is that our Terms and Conditions on all casinos powered by Grand Virtual technology state that a player may only get 1 sign-up bonus across all brands powered by Grand Virtual software. He opened 6 accounts within 2 hours and 5 minutes on the same day.

    So, our Operations Department's position was that OperaRocks should get his winnings on the very first account. However, any winnings or losses on other accounts were invalid because they were achieved using bonus dollars to which he was not entitled. He had one other account with winnings and two others with losses. We refunded his deposits on all accounts including the ones where he lost (and we made money) because fair is fair. If he doesn't get the winning on the second account, then we won't take his losses either.

    I deeply apologize for the time this took and we are working with our Customer Service Department on speed. I am also planning to move the terms up closer to the home page so they are easier to find. OperaRocks had mentioned putting a notice on the buy chips screen which I think is a good idea. We are currently working on phone customer service.

    If anyone has any questions or suggestions, please feel free to post or private message me.

    For those of you who did not see Casinomeister's posting on the Nazila postings in this thread, please see the thread below. He is a known fraudulent player with other casinos as well. The Nazila issues is resolved.

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...x-havent-paid-fraudster.html?highlight=nazila
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Mar 25, 2006
  33. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Kudos for an objective assessment of deficiencies at Grand Virtual casinos, OperaRocks.

    The sad truth is that this sort of thing has been highlighted again and again in other disputes and should be part of Casino Management 101, yet things like having user-friendly escalation facilities, good comms, upfront T&Cs etc continue to be neglected by casinos.

    This should be useful information that Jennifer can take to management at the casinos concerned in order to push through the improvements that she has outlined.
     
  34. Mar 25, 2006
  35. vedat

    vedat Dormant account

    Location:
    TURKEY
    casinos rules

    hello i think its wrong to avoid casinos rules(even they can be annoying ) and do what ever you like with bonus and cry like a baby when you dont get paid i have lost more than 2000$ by not reading rules welll and i had no problem i really got annoyed but it was their rules and i didnt read them well like playing video poker for a slots bonus or playing blackjack-roulette-puntobanco even its a crime to play:rolleyes: for some casinos . and and i didnt picthed a bith becouse i was wrong .
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Mar 25, 2006
  37. operarocks

    operarocks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    opera singer
    Location:
    Seattle
    Caruso - The terms that are actually applicable to me not getting paid at all casinos are this:

    "Bonuses (whether one-time, sign-up, special promotion or recurring monthly use) are limited to one per combination of: a person, family, household, geographic address, mailing address, email address, credit card number and shared computer environment (such as a library or workplace). This limitation applies across all casinos operating GrandVirtual technology. If a casino operating GrandVirtual technology is running a promotion that is similar in kind, an individual person cannot receive the same promotion from both casinos. This includes, but is not limited to, new user promotions."

    Even though no one from their support team at any point quoted this part of the terms. The rep who was "helping" me kept repeating this part when they bothered to respond:

    "Abuse. Players must play as individuals and in the spirit of enjoying the Casino real-money Games as fun and exciting entertainment. Players may not abuse the promotions by creating multiple Player accounts or acting as part of a syndicate to defraud the Casino, nor may they cash out winnings without participating in legitimate real-money play and satisfying bonus requirements. Any Player deemed by Casino Management to be attempting to abuse the promotions will be barred from using the Casino for life. Decisions regarding abuse will be made solely by Casino Management and all decisions are final. Casino Management may and will bar Players without indicating the reason."

    Which was not applicable as I had made only one account at each of the sister casinos, I'm not part of a syndicate, and I fully wagered (and more) through all of my bonuses priot to cashing out.

    Vedat - I am not "crying like a baby" because I didn't get paid the full amount owed. I understand their reasons for paying out only $1,300. My problem is as I've outlined, the disconnect from management, *my* opinion that the terms and conditions are not very accessible to your typical casual gambler, and the way in which they handled the situation. I probably would not have even complained had they simply refunded ALL my deposits with a short explanatory email and disallowed me to play further or, processed my cashouts on one site and refunded my deposits on the others (which they ultimately did) as a reasonable compromise up front.

    Clearly, all of this is subjective, but I wanted to share my experiences since it took nearly two months to sort all of this out. Perhaps you think I'm an idiot for not going through the T&C with a finetooth comb (it takes five clicks to get there, and the layout of their terms are not exactly user-friendly). I like to think I'm relatively tech-savvy, and I thought my play was absolutely on the up and up after reviewing their terms. Regardless of whether you think I'm partially culpable (I'd agree) for them withholding some amount of my money, I think most people would agree that simply refusing to pay any amount back to me and being unable to contact management in any way shape or form through the company itself rather than having to go through third-party casino advocacy sites such as Casinomesiter (including my deposits on two sites where I had made NO wagers) is extremely poor. I've had a few other cashout situations where there was some sort of discrepency, and generally I've been able to have them resolved without having to call up friends who play casinos, register accounts, complain on forums and wait for a response. Can you imagine if any other business ran that way?

    The money is not nearly as an important of an issue as how I was treated by the casino, it's staff, Kahnawake, and OGA who were non-responsive. If I didn't have a good friend who plays often and lurks around these boards I would have had absolutely no recourse against the fact that the representative (who is apparently on some sort of corrective action due to this situation) simply at some point decided to stop responding to my emails.

    The Nazila issue is completely separate from mine. He is an apparent fraudster, I am not. I registered with the exact same information at all sites, an obvious indication that I thought everything was fine.

    While I can't say I recommend GV due to my personal negative experiences, I'm certainly heartened by the fact that Jennifer (Affiliate Web) was extremely polite, helpful and courteous in resolving the matter, and as you can see from her responses, seems attentive and interested in making changes to prevent future situations such as mine from happening. The fact that she acknowledged that the situation was problematic, that I was not treated fairly, and that we came to a reasonable compromise certainly speaks to the credit of the company. Hopefully, their general customer service improves to the point where Jennifer's professionalism is mirrored by all of their representatives in which case I may go back to GV to play casually.
     
  38. Mar 25, 2006
  39. AussieDave

    AussieDave Dodgy whacko backstabber

    Occupation:
    Gaming SEO Specialist & Casino Webmaster
    Location:
    Australia
    IMO yet another example of why casinos should kick bonuses to the curb. I'd be real interested in knowing the overall percentage ratio of bonus PAB's to non bonus related PAB claims.
     

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