Your Input Please Grand Fortune Casino T&C issues and feedback

[winbig]

I wouldn't exactly call these predatory T&C, but they (at least to me) are rather confusing; and I've been mulling over multiple casinos' T&C for ages.

Item #27 from T&C:

Grand Fortune Casino reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of offers at any time and revoke or cancel any remaining bonus balance. It is your responsibility to periodically check here for changes and updates.

Item #31

Casino bonuses are allocated at the manager’s discretion and can be revoked at any time.

This is basically saying that anyone in management can revoke a players' bonus that's in their balance at any given time, for no reason at all? What's up with that? Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way, and if so, please correct me.

Hmm, here's more:

#35:

For free money coupons, and unless otherwise stated, max cashouts will be no more than 1X the bonus amount. For free money coupons below a value of $100, the max cashout will stand at $100.

Which is it, 1x the bonus amount, or $100? For instance, say you take a $5ND bonus. Is the max cashout $5, or $100?

#38:

All first withdrawals are subject to a verification deposit. Only a minimum verification deposit of $21 will be accepted.

Is this standard for all casinos?

#34 conflicts (sort of) with #40:

Players are only allowed withdrawals off ONE free money, no deposit bonus. Withdrawals on further no deposit bonuses will be at the discretion of the casino management.

then #40 states:

If you claim this WELCOME no deposit, free money coupon, you may not claim any other no deposit, free money coupon. Winnings on further free money coupons redeemed will be voided. *Only one no deposit welcome bonus is allowed per player. **Does not apply to registered, frequently depositing players with retention free money, no deposit coupons.

So....is it the managers discretion, or would an additional claimed free $ coupon be subject to voided winnings in any case (other than a retention bonus)...? And what happens if they extend the offer to someone that's only deposited once or twice in 6 months? Will they honor any winnings? What constitutes a "frequently depositing player?" At the very least, that information needs to be outlined in the T&C.

And I think it rather sucks that you limit cashouts to 20x the deposit amount if you take the 150% all games, or 400% slots/keno/scratch card 1st deposit bonus. You might want to re-think this ploy. It's definitely a dealbreaker for me. I'm a low-roller, and I'm definitely not going to deposit $25 for a chance to win, at most, $500 - while still having to roll it over 35x before meeting the WR. If you want to impose a maximum cashout with these initial bonuses offered to new players, then lower the WR, at the very least. I do have to admit that the "all games" 150% SUB looks very attractive, because there's no chance of forfeiting the bonus+winnings if you happened to play a restricted/excluded game. Plus, the 35x WR is still in place for this, even though it's weighted by the games you play. I've seen other casinos offer similar all games bonuses, that were also weighted, but with outrageous WR on up to 99x.

You're tying the hands of new depositors.

Scrolling further down the page, I see that there's more weekly bonuses in which you enforce this max cashout rule. One goes as low as 15x.

Source:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[winbig]

Upon thinking about it more, item #27 is rather....I don't know. I would think that the player would find out that their bonus has been pulled from their balance well before they would think to check the T&C page for updates. They'd be visiting the T&C page after the fact, if at all.

Even if the T&C were changed, I seriously doubt the player would be able to come to any conclusion as to why the bonus was pulled by reading updated T&C.

 

[Kadabra]

All first withdrawals are subject to a verification deposit. Only a minimum verification deposit of $21 will be accepted.

I think it's quite common, especially in US facing casinos.

#34 conflicts (sort of) with #40:
Players are only allowed withdrawals off ONE free money, no deposit bonus. Withdrawals on further no deposit bonuses will be at the discretion of the casino management.
then #40 states:
If you claim this WELCOME no deposit, free money coupon, you may not claim any other no deposit, free money coupon. Winnings on further free money coupons redeemed will be voided. *Only one no deposit welcome bonus is allowed per player. **Does not apply to registered, frequently depositing players with retention free money, no deposit coupons.

Asked them about it - this refers to no deposit players only. They should make it clear though.

 

[winbig]

I think it's quite common, especially in US facing casinos.



Asked them about it - this refers to no deposit players only. They should make it clear though.

Yep....they need to publish what they feel constitutes a regularly depositing player...1 deposit? 2? 5? 10? What's the threshold....?

 

[Kadabra]

They say the threshold is depositing player vs someone who plays only on free chips and that an update is on the way to make it clear.

 

[winbig]

Thanks I just think there's a few that still need clarification, and the bonuses that have a max-cashout attached to them need to be addressed, as well...it's not only the SUB that's affected, but it's also in place for a specific reload bonus as well.

Sure, a player can choose whether or not to play there, but the max cashout rule is silly. As mentioned in the OP, I could understand if it had low WR attached to it, but c'mon. The same WR applies to all of the bonuses. There's nothing overly special when you compare one to the other.

For now, I'll have to stay away. I'm not even going to be greedy and sign up just for the $35ND bonus. Too bad, too, because other than the max cashout stipulations, (edit: and the clauses that state that mgmt can deduct a bonus amount from a players account at any time, for any reason) the casino seems fair. Judging by the other GFC thread currently running, the Rep here at CM seems as if he's really in tune with the players and willing to go the extra mile to satisfy them.

edit2: Regarding the edited part above - Couldn't this be construed as a FU clause?

 

[Kadabra]

Haven't noticed who is the rep here, but if it's Jason then I agree. Seems like a very good guy and open to listen.

Regarding the Max Cashout rules: I would say it is what it is. I don't like max cashouts, but the casino is rather straightforward about it, so it's each player's choice whether to play there or not, cause they do seem to be a solid US friendly brand.

 

[JasonFTA]

Hi Guys,

I just came across this thread a few minutes ago. To those of you that don't know me, my name is Jason and I am the casino rep for both Grand Fortune and Raging Bull Casino.

Let's get down to business and break down these t's and c's. Before I start working through them, just some quick info, we are in the process of launching a new VIP program which will result in a few changes in the terms and conditions (Categorise them according to player classes).

"Item #27 from T&C:

Grand Fortune Casino reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of offers at any time and revoke or cancel any remaining bonus balance. It is your responsibility to periodically check here for changes and updates."

This term will only be enforced if we detect patterns of potential promo abuse or fraud.

"Item #31
Casino bonuses are allocated at the manager’s discretion and can be revoked at any time."

With this term, we refer to "ad-hoc" bonuses issued by VIP and Call Center Manager, this term was added as a precautionary measure but has never been enforced.

"#35:
For free money coupons, and unless otherwise stated, max cashouts will be no more than 1X the bonus amount. For free money coupons below a value of $100, the max cashout will stand at $100.

Which is it, 1x the bonus amount, or $100? For instance, say you take a $5ND bonus. Is the max cashout $5, or $100?"

If the bonus value is less that $100, i.e. $5, then the min cashout of $100 will be adopted.

"#38:
All first withdrawals are subject to a verification deposit. Only a minimum verification deposit of $21 will be accepted.
Is this standard for all casinos?"

As far as I know, it is. This is just to verify that the player is legit and that the players details correspond to the registration records we have listed on our database.

"#34 conflicts (sort of) with #40:
Players are only allowed withdrawals off ONE free money, no deposit bonus. Withdrawals on further no deposit bonuses will be at the discretion of the casino management.
then

#40 states:
If you claim this WELCOME no deposit, free money coupon, you may not claim any other no deposit, free money coupon. Winnings on further free money coupons redeemed will be voided. *Only one no deposit welcome bonus is allowed per player. **Does not apply to registered, frequently depositing players with retention free money, no deposit coupons."

You are 100% correct, they do contradict one another, the correct term should read "Players are only allowed withdrawals off ONE free money, no deposit bonus. Withdrawals on further no deposit bonuses will be at the discretion of the casino management. **Does not apply to registered, frequently depositing players with retention free money, no deposit coupons."

This info was given to my web guys to update and should be rectified first thing tomorrow morning.

Regarding these terms, I can gladly confirm that we very seldomly enforce them. We have had a few cases where we had to review withdrawal/gameplay and enforce one or two of these terms, but only after a thorough investigation was completed.

Guys, please feel free to work through these terms and point out your concerns or suggestions. I can assure you that I will do my best to look into them and rectify where needed.

I have said this before and I will say it again, we will most probably make a few mistakes here and there, but we will do our best to resolve the issue and move forward in a positive manner.

I thank you for your feedback and look forward to the feedback!

Best Regards
Jason

 

[winbig]

"#35:
For free money coupons, and unless otherwise stated, max cashouts will be no more than 1X the bonus amount. For free money coupons below a value of $100, the max cashout will stand at $100.

Which is it, 1x the bonus amount, or $100? For instance, say you take a $5ND bonus. Is the max cashout $5, or $100?"

If the bonus value is less that $100, i.e. $5, then the min cashout of $100 will be adopted.

So I assume that the 1x max cashout rule applies to ND bonuses over $100, then? And I do believe that (on the next line) you meant that the max (not min) cashout of $100 will be adopted...hehe

Regarding these terms, I can gladly confirm that we very seldomly enforce them. We have had a few cases where we had to review withdrawal/gameplay and enforce one or two of these terms, but only after a thorough investigation was completed.

But I assume that the max cashout clause related to the SUB and the 2 other reload bonuses in question are set in stone? That's a shame, as the 400% slots/scratch cards/keno SUB is very enticing. But, so is not being tied to a bonus Either way, what you explained above is very comforting.

Guys, please feel free to work through these terms and point out your concerns or suggestions. I can assure you that I will do my best to look into them and rectify where needed.

I have said this before and I will say it again, we will most probably make a few mistakes here and there, but we will do our best to resolve the issue and move forward in a positive manner.

I thank you for your feedback and look forward to the feedback!

Best Regards
Jason

I think you've addressed everything here, as far as I can tell.....and quickly, at that..:notworthy:

 

[SlotsLover]

what does this mean?

I am very troubled by this explanation: This term will only be enforced if we detect patterns of potential promo abuse or fraud.

Either a player is playing within the rules or not. "Patterns of potential promo abuse or fraud" is "spirit of the bonus" BS. A casino has the right to give and limit bonuses however they see fit. However, once a player is playing, either they are within the rules, or without. Players (myself included) love to try to devise strategies that we believe will give us "the edge." Of course, in 99.9% of these cases, the strategy does not work but this is a fun part of playing and worrying about what will be considered abuse ruins that fun.

I personally won't play slots with a max cashout but I've posted on that numerous times.

 

[JasonFTA]

Hi winbig and SlotsLover,

@ SlotsLover - Thanks for your input. With promo abuse we refer to either players redeeming or attempting to redeem multiple coupons without the intent of ever making a successful deposit OR players registering multiple fake accounts and redeeming coupons in order to profit from the promotion.

@ winbig - Oops, I meant to say the max cashout of $100 will be adopted, thanks for correcting me ...

Unfortunately, the Max cashout on the SUB is set in stone (for now). It is a high match (400%) thus we limited the cashout to 20x your deposit. i.e. Deposit $1000 and you will be entitled to cashout $20,000 which isn't a bad deal at all, well that's what I think ...lol....

I think bonus terms and conditions will always be a tricky and touchy subject. I advise my VIP's to rather play with their own deposits (no limitations) and on request or on a weekly basis, I will reward them with a nice ND bonus based on their deposits (reduced wagering and tailored max cashouts).

I truly appreciate all your feedback. so feel free to run your concerns or suggestions by me.

Have a great day and chat soon!

Regards
Jason

 

[JasonFTA]

Hi Guys,

Just popping in to let you all know that we have corrected the freemoney term. The term now reads;

"Players are only allowed withdrawals off ONE free money, no deposit bonus. Withdrawals on further no deposit bonuses will be at the discretion of the casino management. This term applies to non-depositing players only. This term does not apply to frequent depositors".

Let me know if you guys need more info on this, but I am sure it's self-explanatory.

Regards
Jason

 

[winbig]

Unfortunately, the Max cashout on the SUB is set in stone (for now). It is a high match (400%) thus we limited the cashout to 20x your deposit. i.e. Deposit $1000 and you will be entitled to cashout $20,000 which isn't a bad deal at all, well that's what I think ...lol....
Jason

Honestly, where's the logic in that? What's more likely to happen? (And which would you rather prefer?)
(honest question)

A high roller deposits $1k, bets big, of course, and reaches the max of $20k.
A low roller deposits $20, bets small, again, of course, and just maybe they'll reach the max of $400.

A high roller is more apt to reach the $20k plateau than the $400 low roller max. Think about it. Slots, for example. They're going to be betting at least $20 a pull to make it worth their while, compared to the average 20 cent pulls of the low roller....They hit a nice 300x win on one spin, and they're looking at $6k right there, as opposed to the $60 for the low roller. That $6k win is just under 1/3 of the max, as opposed to the $60 win which is not even 1/7th of the max for the low roller.....

Just curious, is all.


ps: just pulling numbers out of a hat. Personally, if I deposited $1k and got $4k on top of it, I'm going to be betting at least $20 a spin...

 

[JasonFTA]

winbig...... why,why,why, do you want to rack my brain so early on a Wednesday morning? ...lol...

Is the problem here that the max cashout is limited to the 20 x the deposit, In other words, the offer potentially benefit the high rollers more than the low rollers?
Would it make more sense to put a fixed amount as a max cashout (seeing as we not doing away with the max cashout for now), i.e. $10,000?

My question to you now (as a player) is what would you say is the perfect balance when it comes to welcome offers? My thoughts are that there is a very small percentage of players that will really take full advantage of a SUB. Do players like agressive high match welcome offers, knowing that there are so many limitations?

I look forward to hearing back from you!

Regards
Jason

 

[winbig]

Well, it's just a matter of high WR compared to the risk of a max return. Not only does a player have to get lucky to meet the WR with somewhat of a profit, but they have a maximum that they can win.....

Example: (source: interlog's post @ https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/last-night-on-dead-or-alive.68054/)

From a simple 25 deposit, he was only able to wager 101.25....4x the deposit. So, as you can imagine, with a 400% bonus, this would be nowhere near the required amount of (D+B)*35 ($4375.)

I understand he was playing a very high variance slot, but even if you added a very generous 15% to the RTP to bring it up to 96.8% of the maximum achieved in this example, you're still not close to meeting the WR.

I guess the point is, why "penalize" a player for getting very lucky, by imposing the max. cashout rule? I respect the casino's decision in any case, I just wanted to share my views on this subject.

Another thing to look at, is if you wanted to keep everyone happy and still have a maximum cashout in place, maybe lower the WR somewhat, to maybe 25 or even 20x?

 

[KasinoKing]

Another thing to look at, is if you wanted to keep everyone happy and still have a maximum cashout in place, maybe lower the WR somewhat, to maybe 25 or even 20x?

I like that idea!
The main reason I hardly play Rival casinos much at all these days is due to the crazy high WRs most of them seem to have.
I really miss the good old days of (D+B)x15, cashable

I have no objection at all to max cash-outs - as long as they're not crazy low and it's clearly stated in the terms.

KK

 

[JasonFTA]

Hi winbig,

Thanks for the feedback/suggestions mate. We are relooking all our promo's as we speak and simplifying them as well. It's pointless having hundreds of different match offers all with different terms. We are however launching a VIP program when your VIP status will determain playthrough and max cashouts etc.

We are also launching a new brand seen and planning on doing the following:

Acquisition Offer:

1. Free chip on signup
2. 300% Match up to 600 (35x wager and 10x bonus + deposit max cashout)
3. or 100% match up to 200 (25 x wager 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)

Retention Offers:

Daily 100% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 50% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 25% Match (Redeemable unlimited times a day, 20 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)

We will still be throwing in ad-hoc and tailored promo's to players on a daily basis.

Looking forward to your feedback on the suggested offers above!

Regards
Jason

 

[dionysus]

New jumping into the thread here, but....
I can accept a max cashout on an NDB. I wouldn't sink a nickel into any dep match with a max cashout tacked in like above..

 

[JasonFTA]

Thanks dionysus.

Question: What is the objective of a match bonus from a players perspective? I would think it's to gain more play time, extending your play session and to a lesser degree using the bonus to gain a proft, knowing the mechanics of wager and house edge. The bottom line is, if you play with your own deposits, there are no limitations. We have a lot of players that will play with their own deposits 90% of the time and use only match offers on occations to extend the play time.

Maybe I am wrong, but what do you think?

I honestly think weekly cashbacks are the way to go, players earn bonus rewards on their past week's play. The bonus money gets awarded to their accounts with reduced wager and the opportunity to win their bust deposits back, in essance breaking even.

@ Kasinoking and winbig - we will look into that request. It's really difficult finding a balance. We are all for rewarding loyal players, but the high volumes of players that just look at ways to "screw" casinos over, really mess it up for the guys that are just looking for a promo where they can have a decent experiance with a potensial nice reward in the form of a successful cashout.

I really appreciate all the feedback.

Have a Lekker day guys (Lekker - Afrikaans for Great)

Regards
Jason

 

[dionysus]

I think a casino already has a house edge. That edge is increased when a WR is applied. Seeing as the casino is still getting my money (now, quite likely, keeping it) I don't believe a player who has worked harder to achieve cashout should be penalized for success.

If I've made WR on something as small as a 25% deposit match, turning it over and converting it to cash, I don't see why any further restirctions should be in play.

Now, if the case is, having made WR, there's a max cashout as far as a cap during WR, (ex - i hit 1k, but it's converted to say, a max of $500 on completion of WR, but that $500 is now open to keep accruing funds from that point, that's a different ball of wax). However, even that is arguably unnecessary, as I'd imagine there's already max bet limits in place.

 

[winbig]

How about if RTG were to implement a way to convert the bonus in increments, say $1 at a time? This way the player doesn't have to grind to bust-o land before meeting the WR (Usually never reaching a balance above and beyond their initial D+B amount) and never releasing a penny of it Although I can't remember which software it was, I've seen it done in the past...

The way it is now, it's very profitable to the casino, but not the player

 

[dionysus]

Although I can't remember which software it was, I've seen it done in the past...

Videoslots I believe.

 

[JasonFTA]

@ winbig - If I am not mistaken, MGS casinos worked like that.

@ dionysus - Oops, my bad - I meant to say NO max cashout of the 25% unlimited max, my bad. Here are the corrected retention offers that we will be looking at:

Retention Offers:

Daily 100% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 50% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 25% Match (Redeemable unlimited times a day, 20 x wager, NO max cashout)

Sorry for the confusion there!

Regards
Jason

 

[dionysus]

@ winbig - If I am not mistaken, MGS casinos worked like that.

@ dionysus - Oops, my bad - I meant to say NO max cashout of the 25% unlimited max, my bad. Here are the corrected retention offers that we will be looking at:

Retention Offers:

Daily 100% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 50% Match (Redeemable 1 once a day, 25 x wager, 20x bonus + deposit max cashout)
Daily 25% Match (Redeemable unlimited times a day, 20 x wager, NO max cashout)

Sorry for the confusion there!

Regards
Jason

I'm going to assume that last one is still x bonus+deposit.
But cheers for the correction.

 

[JasonFTA]

That's correct, wager at 20 x bonus + deposit.

Over and Out!

Regards
Jason