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Goldbetting Casino unethical activity

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by atherm, May 14, 2006.

    May 14, 2006
  1. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    I recently had a problem with goldbetting casino. Below is the PAB form I filled out as well as some of the emails sent back and forth between myself and Goldbetting casino cashier Tom Kennedy. I am posting this now because Bryan was able to get the casino to pay me the full amount owed. He was able to do this despite the casino absolutely assuring me that I would not be paid as you will read in the below emails. I sent dozens of emails to people and organizations such as the interactive gaming council, wager 21 casinos, as well as the moderators of two other popular casino internet pages (both of whom suggested the PAB form as the way to go). I am extremely thankful for whatever Bryan did to make sure the right thing was done and for all those who help make this site a place that prevents online casinos from thinking they're above the law.
    One interesting note is that they changed their story 3 times as to why I wasnt being paid.
    1. They claimed I had not met my wagering requirements although this was confirmed twice by their own cashier.
    2. They switched their stance and said that making multiple withdrawals in the fashion that i describe below was against their policy although their webpage never mentions such a thing, and in fact suggests the opposite
    3. After finally being paid, management at goldbetting claimed to Bryan that the real reason I wasnt being paid was that I had not waited the required 7 days before cashing out. I have records that show i waited over 8 days.

    Also of note is that they refused to contact me via telephone and cut of email communication with me.

    This entire episode was packed so full of lies and deceit on the casinos part that I can't possibly describe it all, but I will try to get the whole story across through the documentation below

    PAB FORM:

    The problem: I deposited 250 into goldbetting casino on april 25th at 11:49am EST. For this deposit I received a 500 bonus. This 500 bonus is orignally listed as hot or locked. They way the bonus is unlocked is by wagering 10x the bonus amount in games that are eligible. i chose to wager 10x the bonus in video poker. There is a counter in the cashier page which automatically counts down for you how much more you must wager untill the bonus is released. I kept track of this counter constantly and played video poker until my wagering requirements were all the way down to 0. It should be noted that over the course of doing this i lost more then my entire original deposit, and was left with only like 480 in bonus money. Because I completed my wagering requirement, the bonus was moved from the hotlocked portion of my account, to the normal bonus part. At this point the bonus was available for wagering. Goldbetting casino requires that at least 7 days pass before one can make a withdrawal from their casino. So i waited more then 8 days and returned to play with my bonus. The rules for the bonus money once it is no longer hot is that bonus itself may not be withdrawn, but winnings from it can be withdrawn. Because i had lost my entire deposit, my entire bankroll at goldbetting was in bonus money. So I started playing with the bonus money. whenever Id win, i would cash out my winnings. I got very lucky doing this, and was able to cash out 525 like this. This was the only way in which to make money because the rule is that you wager with your regular money first, and then bonus money. So if I won some money and then kept playing, eventually I would lose this money and be back to just my bonus, which could not be withdrawn. After my bonus money finally ran out I found myself with 22 cashouts ranging from 12.50 to 100. I reversed all these cash outs for practicality sake, and changed them into just 3 larger withdrawals. I could have just left it alone like that, but then they would have had to process 22 cashouts, which seemed like a hassle. Today I got an email from goldbetting saying that they had returned only 250 to me, and confiscated the remaining 275. Their original reason for this was that they said I had not met my wagering requirement. This is untrue. Their own counter and their own cashier verified twice first in the counter reaching 0, and 2nd with my bonus money being moved from the hot bonus list to the qualified bonus portion of the cashier that my wagering requirements had been met. After a couple of emails they i was exchanging emails with a man named Tom Kennedy changed there stance and said my money was being denied because I had abused the bonus. This is entirely untrue. I followed there terms and conditions perfectly,and I broke no rules whatsoever. Tom is saying that making alot of withdrawals like I did was not allowed. It doesnt say that anywhere. In fact it says the opposite. Winnings from the bonus may be withdrawn. Right in the terms and conditions.


    Emails Exchanged Between Myself and Tom Kennedy (Goldbetting Casino Cashier) :
    Hi atherm,
    you forfieted your bonus due to not making the required number of
    wahers before cashing out. I reviewed your e-mail history, there were no
    confirmations on you completing your bonus wagering requirements. In fact there
    were several e-mails in which we explained the bonus rules. We are e-mail
    support only and will not change this decision.
    Tom Kennedy
    Casino Cashier

    Tom,
    I defintely did meet my wagering requirements. I kept track of it the entire time! I went back and forth to the cashier watching the amount that I needed to wager listed there go all the way down to zero! At that point I wagered the bonus money untill I had no bonus left whatsoever. This isnt right! Please do not steal from me.
    -atherm

    Hi atherm,
    there is no mistake, you did not complete wager requirements. There is
    none here that will change this. We paid you back your deposit, you can move on
    or redeposit. Since you have forfieted your bonus, this would not be an issue in
    the future.
    Tom Kennedy
    Casino Cashier

    Tom,
    Please awnser my question! How is it possible that i did not complete my wagering requirement? There is a counter in the cashier that keep strack of it for you. I watched it go all the way to zero! I had zero money in my bonus account? If you are going to steal from me, and not even give me a phone number which I may use to receive help, then i'll have to find other methods. Please give me a phone number which I may call. i cannot afford to lose $275. Please check your cashier page! I showed my wagering requirements were met. It also showed no bonus money. all of it was my money in my account. I waited over 8 days. I did everything right. Please Tom. Do the right thing. Please dont cheat me
    Please
    -atherm

    Hi atherm,
    you did that by making cashouts when you hit and then reversing them
    to make wagers. We consider this bonus abuse, we will not give you back the
    bonus, period.
    Tom Kennedy
    Casino Cashier

    Tom I dont understand,
    So now you're saying that the reason I am not being given my money is that I reversed my withdrawals to make a couple big withdrawals. Not because i didnt fulfill my wagering requirements, which I obviously did meet. How is this bonus abuse? Its the only way that i would be able to withdraw my bonus. I earned the bonus by playing through my wagering requirement. I didnt have to reverse my withdrawals, i did that to make it easier on your end. I could have just left it with 2 dozen or so small withdrawals, but that seemed like a hassle. I did not abuse anything. you're basically saying that anyone that earns the bonus, and makes money doing it is a bonus abuser!? You are stealing from me. You still have not provided me with a phone number. Usually if a casino is confiscating\stealing $275 from somebody, they would have the decency to speak to the person. Not exchange emails.
    I did everything right. I played through my wagering requirements. Earned my bonus. Wagered the bonus and earned winnings, and made withdrawals. You have been lying to me this entire time and I have the email records to show it. Your own records and cashier confirm that i met my wagering requiremetns and did everything right, yet you lied and said that I did not meet my wagering requirements. Your own terms and conditions say that I am allowed to cashout winnings earned from my bonus. That is exactly what I did, i earned the bonus, wagered it, and cashed out the winnings that i made. Are you saying that it is bonus abuse because I didnt lose my money? You are being unethincal, immoral, and underhanded. There will be complaints filed, forums posted on, emails sent out if you choose to not act justly. You cannot simply steal $275 from someone and expect them to rollover. I truly hope that you choose to do the right thing. For the 7th time, please give me a phone number so that I may speak with a manager or owner.
    -atherm

    Tom,
    (A reminder from your own webpage)
    1. Bonus Money cannot be withdrawn, only the money you win by wagering with it can be withdrawn from your Casino account. 2. You will always first wager with your Deposited Money and then with your Bonus Money.

    The above is from your own terms and conditions. According to this you are allowed to withdraw any winnings earned from wagering a bonus. This is what i did. The money I withdrew was not a bonus, it was my own money that I earned. If you are saying that what i did was bonus abuse then your entire bonus is fraudulent. If I am not allowed to make withdrawals when I wish, with my own money, then i will inevitably lose all my money because I always wager my own money first. Thus the bonus will never be converted to being my own money untill I cash it out. I am sorry if your bonus is only meant to be a scam, and I know that you are unhappy that i got lucky and actually was able to meet my wagering requirement, wager my bonus, and make money. But I did. I earned every penny of that money. Once again, I broke no rules whatsoever and I'm sure you know it.

    Hi atherm,
    I have explained this to you several times, I wont do so again. We do
    not lie or steal, I resent your implications that we do. We pay out many
    thousands at minimum every day and rarely have a problem with bonu wagering
    requirments. Your explanation about the mutiple, [19] cashouts for small
    amounts does not match our records. We record time and date for all reversed
    cashouts, the record plainly shows that you were doing to this to convert the
    bonus, not to "do us a favor". Once again, we also keep records of e-mails, our
    cashier never confirmed that you completed your wager requirements and our
    records clearly show that you did not. Once again, we are not going to call you.
    You knew what you were doing and decided to take a chance and it did not work
    out for you. Tecnically, you should not have gotten anything back as your signup
    bonus was for $500. We decided to give you a break and returned the amount of
    your deposit. As for posting or whatever you wish to do, we
    do not base our decisions on threats. If we see the need we will answer any
    posting to the webmaster or forum master. We are confident that our explanation
    and our records will convince anyone that is willing to listen. We will not
    adress this issue with you further, the 5 or 6 times that we have so far should
    have been more than enough.
    Tom Kennedy
    Casino Cashier

    (a note to anyone who has read this far, they had never to this point explained anything to me. They had changed their story multiple times. Never explained how they were claiming that I had not met my WR's despite their own cashier saying I had. Never explained how what I did was bonus abuse. They are dodging every question i ask, not explaining anything, and refusing to contact me. now without further delay.... my response to the above email!)


    Tom,
    You resent that I am suggesting that are lying and stealing?
    1. You did lie. You have a counter in your cashier that shows how much one must wager before there bonus is no longer hot\locked. I played video poker untll this counter was down to $0 (and lost more then my entire deposit in doing so) and the bonus was moved out of my hot\locked portion. At this point i waited more then 8 days as is required in your terms and conditions. I then returned to the casino and wagered the bonus. I made withdrawals whenever I made a bit of money. The money i withdrew was listed as withdrawable and so I withdrew it. If I didnt withdaw it at that time, then there was a good chance that I would go on losing streak and not be able to cash out anything. This was to much of a risk for me because these little amounts mean alot to me. So I made these small withdrawals, and got very lucky in that I won as much as I did. (NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT I MAY NOT WITHDRAW MY MONEY IN THIS FASHION. It is self evident that i may cash out my own money. What you are suggesting and doing is completely counter intuitive and non-sensical.) I Finally ran out of bonus money. At this point I could have just left it so that there were like 2 dozen withdrawals pending. Instead, I reversed them and changed them into a couple big withdrawals. This is clearly just to help you guys out in processing them.

    2.As was specified already, you are stealing my money. The funds that I withdrew were not a bonus any longer. It was my money. Your refusal to pay it is stealing. If i was a at a real casino and took my chips to the cashier, and they refused to give me my winnings in cash, it would be the exact same thing. You feel that because you are an online casino that you are above the law.

    3. I am not threatening you in any way. I am the victim here as I'm sure you know. However, If i am to be a victim, I will not simply allow you to keep beating on me. I will not be cheated. I will not be taken advantage of. I suggest that you make sure that all the managers and owners know about your decision to treat me like this. Because they certainly will soon enough. I am not threatening. I am simply holding you accountable in the only way i can. Taking the problem to the masses. And i'm sure you know, the results will be a loss in current and future customers that will total much, much more than $275.
    Thank You
    Atherm
    p.s-for the 8th time, this could be solved much quicker if we were to talk on the phone.



    For any that have read this and would like further clarification of the events that took place then feel free to post and I will awnser all questions.
    Thanks again to all,
    Atherm
     
  2. May 14, 2006
  3. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    p.s- it should also be noted that the reason I am posting this problem is that goldbetting still has not given anything resembling an adequate explanation of why they chose to act in such a fashion. So despite the fact thay they eventually caved and paid up, they have not taken any responsibility for their actions. They were notified almost 2 weeks ago that I would be posting on forums and you can see their response in the previous post.
    I'm certainly looking forward to a good explanation (and\or apology) in this forum.
     
  4. May 19, 2006
  5. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    hmmm, and while im at it, i dont feel like starting another thread on Grand Banks Casino so ill just add this here. But can they take a hint? They already have a bad rap for slow withdrawals, and they arent even pretending to try and fix it. I made my withdrawal on May 4th. Its about to be come May 19th. And my withdrawal was only for $500. They say it should take 7-10 business days for withdrawals to be completed (which is already ludicrously long) and they cant even stick to that. Tomorrow will be 11 business days and counting. I'm going back to bet365 and the party casinos. Instant withdrawals is where its at.
     
  6. May 19, 2006
  7. Macgyver

    Macgyver Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Be prepared to wait even more ... took them a whole calendar month to pay me when I played a few years ago and that was for even less than your $500.
     
  8. May 24, 2006
  9. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    My god,
    You werent kidding. CS has promised me at least 5 times that they would notify the finance department, put me on priority lists, id receive my money very soon, they'd email the finance manager etc etc etc. Still havnt received my money. how do these guys stay in business. Now im being told that "ill probably recieve my money sometime next week"
     
  10. May 24, 2006
  11. Linus

    Linus Dormant account

    Occupation:
    asdf
    Location:
    TX
    Cold.

    The funny thing is CS may as well have been reading from a script.

    1. Pretended outrage.
    2. Recitations of the honesty and integrity of the casino.
    3. Multiple, yet conflicting versions of why it's your fault.
    4. Claims that the decision is "final."
    5. And finally, claims you should be happy you're getting anything at all.

    There must be a script out there somewhere, that deadbeat casinos circulate amongst themselves.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. May 24, 2006
  13. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA

    I assume you're referring to the goldbetting incident. Glad to finally have somebody give a reply to that. I agree with you on all points.
     
  14. May 29, 2006
  15. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    updates on both issues:

    1. Obviously goldbetting has made no contact with me since the meister got them to pay my winnings, and I certainly have received no apology or explanation for their actions.

    2. Grand Banks still hasnt processed my withdrawal. Its now been almost a full month. And you know, it wouldnt be so bad if they had told me at the beginning that it would a month. But they assured me over and over again that it would be 7-10 business days. Once that deadline passed they kept telling me that they were sending emails to the finance department and making my withdrawal a priority. This was like 2 weeks ago. I'll wait another week I guess before PAB'ing.
     
  16. May 30, 2006
  17. Darem1

    Darem1 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    I was an accountant in a previous life
    Location:
    Florida
    You are lucky you got your money

    I played at Goldbetting a year or so ago without incident, but one of the other Wager 21 group's casinos, Ladydream, still owes me the $11,000 that was in my account when they locked it. I have just recently gotten a note from one of their new reps, Todd, that he is finally looking into my situation.
    They claimed that I had tried to charge back a credit card charge on another one of their casinos that I don't even remember playing at, but if I did this is still a lie because I NEVER charged back any amount used to gamble. So I will have to wait and see if I ever get my money. Please note these people are not on the Meister's approved list and I hope they never get there so long as they still owe me or anyone else money. Maybe Bryan spoke to them at one of the conferences or something and that is why they are paying attention to some of us now, I don't know. I had sent Todd two emails over a month ago with no reply until a few days ago. :mad:
     
  18. Apr 26, 2007
  19. atherm

    atherm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    USA
    Update

    ONE YEAR LATER AND GRAND BANKS STILL HASNT GIVEN ME A PENNY.
     
  20. Apr 27, 2007
  21. eduun

    eduun Most Annoying Forum Member of 2008

    Occupation:
    accounting
    Location:
    usa
    why are you playing at these casinos?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2007
  22. Sep 14, 2007
  23. farookh

    farookh Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    main street USA
    RE:

    Wager21 has a history of this kind of behavior. I ran into the same type of situation a few years back. I actually won a bit and Tom told me since I wanted my entire balance sent to Neteller, this was typical of cheaters who charge back their card purchases. My account was locked for about 6-7 months. Finally, the remaining amount arrived in the mail. I was even blocked via email so anything I sent was bounced back. Very frustrating trying to deal with this group. Thankfully I was paid, but stay far far away from this group. One of the very few times I've actually had any trouble online.
     

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