I recently had a problem with goldbetting casino. Below is the PAB form I filled out as well as some of the emails sent back and forth between myself and Goldbetting casino cashier Tom Kennedy. I am posting this now because Bryan was able to get the casino to pay me the full amount owed. He was able to do this despite the casino absolutely assuring me that I would not be paid as you will read in the below emails. I sent dozens of emails to people and organizations such as the interactive gaming council, wager 21 casinos, as well as the moderators of two other popular casino internet pages (both of whom suggested the PAB form as the way to go). I am extremely thankful for whatever Bryan did to make sure the right thing was done and for all those who help make this site a place that prevents online casinos from thinking they're above the law.
One interesting note is that they changed their story 3 times as to why I wasnt being paid.
1. They claimed I had not met my wagering requirements although this was confirmed twice by their own cashier.
2. They switched their stance and said that making multiple withdrawals in the fashion that i describe below was against their policy although their webpage never mentions such a thing, and in fact suggests the opposite
3. After finally being paid, management at goldbetting claimed to Bryan that the real reason I wasnt being paid was that I had not waited the required 7 days before cashing out. I have records that show i waited over 8 days.
Also of note is that they refused to contact me via telephone and cut of email communication with me.
This entire episode was packed so full of lies and deceit on the casinos part that I can't possibly describe it all, but I will try to get the whole story across through the documentation below
PAB FORM:
The problem: I deposited 250 into goldbetting casino on april 25th at 11:49am EST. For this deposit I received a 500 bonus. This 500 bonus is orignally listed as hot or locked. They way the bonus is unlocked is by wagering 10x the bonus amount in games that are eligible. i chose to wager 10x the bonus in video poker. There is a counter in the cashier page which automatically counts down for you how much more you must wager untill the bonus is released. I kept track of this counter constantly and played video poker until my wagering requirements were all the way down to 0. It should be noted that over the course of doing this i lost more then my entire original deposit, and was left with only like 480 in bonus money. Because I completed my wagering requirement, the bonus was moved from the hotlocked portion of my account, to the normal bonus part. At this point the bonus was available for wagering. Goldbetting casino requires that at least 7 days pass before one can make a withdrawal from their casino. So i waited more then 8 days and returned to play with my bonus. The rules for the bonus money once it is no longer hot is that bonus itself may not be withdrawn, but winnings from it can be withdrawn. Because i had lost my entire deposit, my entire bankroll at goldbetting was in bonus money. So I started playing with the bonus money. whenever Id win, i would cash out my winnings. I got very lucky doing this, and was able to cash out 525 like this. This was the only way in which to make money because the rule is that you wager with your regular money first, and then bonus money. So if I won some money and then kept playing, eventually I would lose this money and be back to just my bonus, which could not be withdrawn. After my bonus money finally ran out I found myself with 22 cashouts ranging from 12.50 to 100. I reversed all these cash outs for practicality sake, and changed them into just 3 larger withdrawals. I could have just left it alone like that, but then they would have had to process 22 cashouts, which seemed like a hassle. Today I got an email from goldbetting saying that they had returned only 250 to me, and confiscated the remaining 275. Their original reason for this was that they said I had not met my wagering requirement. This is untrue. Their own counter and their own cashier verified twice first in the counter reaching 0, and 2nd with my bonus money being moved from the hot bonus list to the qualified bonus portion of the cashier that my wagering requirements had been met. After a couple of emails they i was exchanging emails with a man named Tom Kennedy changed there stance and said my money was being denied because I had abused the bonus. This is entirely untrue. I followed there terms and conditions perfectly,and I broke no rules whatsoever. Tom is saying that making alot of withdrawals like I did was not allowed. It doesnt say that anywhere. In fact it says the opposite. Winnings from the bonus may be withdrawn. Right in the terms and conditions.
Emails Exchanged Between Myself and Tom Kennedy (Goldbetting Casino Cashier) :
Hi atherm,
you forfieted your bonus due to not making the required number of
wahers before cashing out. I reviewed your e-mail history, there were no
confirmations on you completing your bonus wagering requirements. In fact there
were several e-mails in which we explained the bonus rules. We are e-mail
support only and will not change this decision.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom,
I defintely did meet my wagering requirements. I kept track of it the entire time! I went back and forth to the cashier watching the amount that I needed to wager listed there go all the way down to zero! At that point I wagered the bonus money untill I had no bonus left whatsoever. This isnt right! Please do not steal from me.
-atherm
Hi atherm,
there is no mistake, you did not complete wager requirements. There is
none here that will change this. We paid you back your deposit, you can move on
or redeposit. Since you have forfieted your bonus, this would not be an issue in
the future.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom,
Please awnser my question! How is it possible that i did not complete my wagering requirement? There is a counter in the cashier that keep strack of it for you. I watched it go all the way to zero! I had zero money in my bonus account? If you are going to steal from me, and not even give me a phone number which I may use to receive help, then i'll have to find other methods. Please give me a phone number which I may call. i cannot afford to lose $275. Please check your cashier page! I showed my wagering requirements were met. It also showed no bonus money. all of it was my money in my account. I waited over 8 days. I did everything right. Please Tom. Do the right thing. Please dont cheat me
Please
-atherm
Hi atherm,
you did that by making cashouts when you hit and then reversing them
to make wagers. We consider this bonus abuse, we will not give you back the
bonus, period.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom I dont understand,
So now you're saying that the reason I am not being given my money is that I reversed my withdrawals to make a couple big withdrawals. Not because i didnt fulfill my wagering requirements, which I obviously did meet. How is this bonus abuse? Its the only way that i would be able to withdraw my bonus. I earned the bonus by playing through my wagering requirement. I didnt have to reverse my withdrawals, i did that to make it easier on your end. I could have just left it with 2 dozen or so small withdrawals, but that seemed like a hassle. I did not abuse anything. you're basically saying that anyone that earns the bonus, and makes money doing it is a bonus abuser!? You are stealing from me. You still have not provided me with a phone number. Usually if a casino is confiscating\stealing $275 from somebody, they would have the decency to speak to the person. Not exchange emails.
I did everything right. I played through my wagering requirements. Earned my bonus. Wagered the bonus and earned winnings, and made withdrawals. You have been lying to me this entire time and I have the email records to show it. Your own records and cashier confirm that i met my wagering requiremetns and did everything right, yet you lied and said that I did not meet my wagering requirements. Your own terms and conditions say that I am allowed to cashout winnings earned from my bonus. That is exactly what I did, i earned the bonus, wagered it, and cashed out the winnings that i made. Are you saying that it is bonus abuse because I didnt lose my money? You are being unethincal, immoral, and underhanded. There will be complaints filed, forums posted on, emails sent out if you choose to not act justly. You cannot simply steal $275 from someone and expect them to rollover. I truly hope that you choose to do the right thing. For the 7th time, please give me a phone number so that I may speak with a manager or owner.
-atherm
Tom,
(A reminder from your own webpage)
1. Bonus Money cannot be withdrawn, only the money you win by wagering with it can be withdrawn from your Casino account. 2. You will always first wager with your Deposited Money and then with your Bonus Money.
The above is from your own terms and conditions. According to this you are allowed to withdraw any winnings earned from wagering a bonus. This is what i did. The money I withdrew was not a bonus, it was my own money that I earned. If you are saying that what i did was bonus abuse then your entire bonus is fraudulent. If I am not allowed to make withdrawals when I wish, with my own money, then i will inevitably lose all my money because I always wager my own money first. Thus the bonus will never be converted to being my own money untill I cash it out. I am sorry if your bonus is only meant to be a scam, and I know that you are unhappy that i got lucky and actually was able to meet my wagering requirement, wager my bonus, and make money. But I did. I earned every penny of that money. Once again, I broke no rules whatsoever and I'm sure you know it.
Hi atherm,
I have explained this to you several times, I wont do so again. We do
not lie or steal, I resent your implications that we do. We pay out many
thousands at minimum every day and rarely have a problem with bonu wagering
requirments. Your explanation about the mutiple, [19] cashouts for small
amounts does not match our records. We record time and date for all reversed
cashouts, the record plainly shows that you were doing to this to convert the
bonus, not to "do us a favor". Once again, we also keep records of e-mails, our
cashier never confirmed that you completed your wager requirements and our
records clearly show that you did not. Once again, we are not going to call you.
You knew what you were doing and decided to take a chance and it did not work
out for you. Tecnically, you should not have gotten anything back as your signup
bonus was for $500. We decided to give you a break and returned the amount of
your deposit. As for posting or whatever you wish to do, we
do not base our decisions on threats. If we see the need we will answer any
posting to the webmaster or forum master. We are confident that our explanation
and our records will convince anyone that is willing to listen. We will not
adress this issue with you further, the 5 or 6 times that we have so far should
have been more than enough.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
(a note to anyone who has read this far, they had never to this point explained anything to me. They had changed their story multiple times. Never explained how they were claiming that I had not met my WR's despite their own cashier saying I had. Never explained how what I did was bonus abuse. They are dodging every question i ask, not explaining anything, and refusing to contact me. now without further delay.... my response to the above email!)
Tom,
You resent that I am suggesting that are lying and stealing?
1. You did lie. You have a counter in your cashier that shows how much one must wager before there bonus is no longer hot\locked. I played video poker untll this counter was down to $0 (and lost more then my entire deposit in doing so) and the bonus was moved out of my hot\locked portion. At this point i waited more then 8 days as is required in your terms and conditions. I then returned to the casino and wagered the bonus. I made withdrawals whenever I made a bit of money. The money i withdrew was listed as withdrawable and so I withdrew it. If I didnt withdaw it at that time, then there was a good chance that I would go on losing streak and not be able to cash out anything. This was to much of a risk for me because these little amounts mean alot to me. So I made these small withdrawals, and got very lucky in that I won as much as I did. (NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT I MAY NOT WITHDRAW MY MONEY IN THIS FASHION. It is self evident that i may cash out my own money. What you are suggesting and doing is completely counter intuitive and non-sensical.) I Finally ran out of bonus money. At this point I could have just left it so that there were like 2 dozen withdrawals pending. Instead, I reversed them and changed them into a couple big withdrawals. This is clearly just to help you guys out in processing them.
2.As was specified already, you are stealing my money. The funds that I withdrew were not a bonus any longer. It was my money. Your refusal to pay it is stealing. If i was a at a real casino and took my chips to the cashier, and they refused to give me my winnings in cash, it would be the exact same thing. You feel that because you are an online casino that you are above the law.
3. I am not threatening you in any way. I am the victim here as I'm sure you know. However, If i am to be a victim, I will not simply allow you to keep beating on me. I will not be cheated. I will not be taken advantage of. I suggest that you make sure that all the managers and owners know about your decision to treat me like this. Because they certainly will soon enough. I am not threatening. I am simply holding you accountable in the only way i can. Taking the problem to the masses. And i'm sure you know, the results will be a loss in current and future customers that will total much, much more than $275.
Thank You
Atherm
p.s-for the 8th time, this could be solved much quicker if we were to talk on the phone.
For any that have read this and would like further clarification of the events that took place then feel free to post and I will awnser all questions.
Thanks again to all,
Atherm
One interesting note is that they changed their story 3 times as to why I wasnt being paid.
1. They claimed I had not met my wagering requirements although this was confirmed twice by their own cashier.
2. They switched their stance and said that making multiple withdrawals in the fashion that i describe below was against their policy although their webpage never mentions such a thing, and in fact suggests the opposite
3. After finally being paid, management at goldbetting claimed to Bryan that the real reason I wasnt being paid was that I had not waited the required 7 days before cashing out. I have records that show i waited over 8 days.
Also of note is that they refused to contact me via telephone and cut of email communication with me.
This entire episode was packed so full of lies and deceit on the casinos part that I can't possibly describe it all, but I will try to get the whole story across through the documentation below
PAB FORM:
The problem: I deposited 250 into goldbetting casino on april 25th at 11:49am EST. For this deposit I received a 500 bonus. This 500 bonus is orignally listed as hot or locked. They way the bonus is unlocked is by wagering 10x the bonus amount in games that are eligible. i chose to wager 10x the bonus in video poker. There is a counter in the cashier page which automatically counts down for you how much more you must wager untill the bonus is released. I kept track of this counter constantly and played video poker until my wagering requirements were all the way down to 0. It should be noted that over the course of doing this i lost more then my entire original deposit, and was left with only like 480 in bonus money. Because I completed my wagering requirement, the bonus was moved from the hotlocked portion of my account, to the normal bonus part. At this point the bonus was available for wagering. Goldbetting casino requires that at least 7 days pass before one can make a withdrawal from their casino. So i waited more then 8 days and returned to play with my bonus. The rules for the bonus money once it is no longer hot is that bonus itself may not be withdrawn, but winnings from it can be withdrawn. Because i had lost my entire deposit, my entire bankroll at goldbetting was in bonus money. So I started playing with the bonus money. whenever Id win, i would cash out my winnings. I got very lucky doing this, and was able to cash out 525 like this. This was the only way in which to make money because the rule is that you wager with your regular money first, and then bonus money. So if I won some money and then kept playing, eventually I would lose this money and be back to just my bonus, which could not be withdrawn. After my bonus money finally ran out I found myself with 22 cashouts ranging from 12.50 to 100. I reversed all these cash outs for practicality sake, and changed them into just 3 larger withdrawals. I could have just left it alone like that, but then they would have had to process 22 cashouts, which seemed like a hassle. Today I got an email from goldbetting saying that they had returned only 250 to me, and confiscated the remaining 275. Their original reason for this was that they said I had not met my wagering requirement. This is untrue. Their own counter and their own cashier verified twice first in the counter reaching 0, and 2nd with my bonus money being moved from the hot bonus list to the qualified bonus portion of the cashier that my wagering requirements had been met. After a couple of emails they i was exchanging emails with a man named Tom Kennedy changed there stance and said my money was being denied because I had abused the bonus. This is entirely untrue. I followed there terms and conditions perfectly,and I broke no rules whatsoever. Tom is saying that making alot of withdrawals like I did was not allowed. It doesnt say that anywhere. In fact it says the opposite. Winnings from the bonus may be withdrawn. Right in the terms and conditions.
Emails Exchanged Between Myself and Tom Kennedy (Goldbetting Casino Cashier) :
Hi atherm,
you forfieted your bonus due to not making the required number of
wahers before cashing out. I reviewed your e-mail history, there were no
confirmations on you completing your bonus wagering requirements. In fact there
were several e-mails in which we explained the bonus rules. We are e-mail
support only and will not change this decision.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom,
I defintely did meet my wagering requirements. I kept track of it the entire time! I went back and forth to the cashier watching the amount that I needed to wager listed there go all the way down to zero! At that point I wagered the bonus money untill I had no bonus left whatsoever. This isnt right! Please do not steal from me.
-atherm
Hi atherm,
there is no mistake, you did not complete wager requirements. There is
none here that will change this. We paid you back your deposit, you can move on
or redeposit. Since you have forfieted your bonus, this would not be an issue in
the future.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom,
Please awnser my question! How is it possible that i did not complete my wagering requirement? There is a counter in the cashier that keep strack of it for you. I watched it go all the way to zero! I had zero money in my bonus account? If you are going to steal from me, and not even give me a phone number which I may use to receive help, then i'll have to find other methods. Please give me a phone number which I may call. i cannot afford to lose $275. Please check your cashier page! I showed my wagering requirements were met. It also showed no bonus money. all of it was my money in my account. I waited over 8 days. I did everything right. Please Tom. Do the right thing. Please dont cheat me
Please
-atherm
Hi atherm,
you did that by making cashouts when you hit and then reversing them
to make wagers. We consider this bonus abuse, we will not give you back the
bonus, period.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
Tom I dont understand,
So now you're saying that the reason I am not being given my money is that I reversed my withdrawals to make a couple big withdrawals. Not because i didnt fulfill my wagering requirements, which I obviously did meet. How is this bonus abuse? Its the only way that i would be able to withdraw my bonus. I earned the bonus by playing through my wagering requirement. I didnt have to reverse my withdrawals, i did that to make it easier on your end. I could have just left it with 2 dozen or so small withdrawals, but that seemed like a hassle. I did not abuse anything. you're basically saying that anyone that earns the bonus, and makes money doing it is a bonus abuser!? You are stealing from me. You still have not provided me with a phone number. Usually if a casino is confiscating\stealing $275 from somebody, they would have the decency to speak to the person. Not exchange emails.
I did everything right. I played through my wagering requirements. Earned my bonus. Wagered the bonus and earned winnings, and made withdrawals. You have been lying to me this entire time and I have the email records to show it. Your own records and cashier confirm that i met my wagering requiremetns and did everything right, yet you lied and said that I did not meet my wagering requirements. Your own terms and conditions say that I am allowed to cashout winnings earned from my bonus. That is exactly what I did, i earned the bonus, wagered it, and cashed out the winnings that i made. Are you saying that it is bonus abuse because I didnt lose my money? You are being unethincal, immoral, and underhanded. There will be complaints filed, forums posted on, emails sent out if you choose to not act justly. You cannot simply steal $275 from someone and expect them to rollover. I truly hope that you choose to do the right thing. For the 7th time, please give me a phone number so that I may speak with a manager or owner.
-atherm
Tom,
(A reminder from your own webpage)
1. Bonus Money cannot be withdrawn, only the money you win by wagering with it can be withdrawn from your Casino account. 2. You will always first wager with your Deposited Money and then with your Bonus Money.
The above is from your own terms and conditions. According to this you are allowed to withdraw any winnings earned from wagering a bonus. This is what i did. The money I withdrew was not a bonus, it was my own money that I earned. If you are saying that what i did was bonus abuse then your entire bonus is fraudulent. If I am not allowed to make withdrawals when I wish, with my own money, then i will inevitably lose all my money because I always wager my own money first. Thus the bonus will never be converted to being my own money untill I cash it out. I am sorry if your bonus is only meant to be a scam, and I know that you are unhappy that i got lucky and actually was able to meet my wagering requirement, wager my bonus, and make money. But I did. I earned every penny of that money. Once again, I broke no rules whatsoever and I'm sure you know it.
Hi atherm,
I have explained this to you several times, I wont do so again. We do
not lie or steal, I resent your implications that we do. We pay out many
thousands at minimum every day and rarely have a problem with bonu wagering
requirments. Your explanation about the mutiple, [19] cashouts for small
amounts does not match our records. We record time and date for all reversed
cashouts, the record plainly shows that you were doing to this to convert the
bonus, not to "do us a favor". Once again, we also keep records of e-mails, our
cashier never confirmed that you completed your wager requirements and our
records clearly show that you did not. Once again, we are not going to call you.
You knew what you were doing and decided to take a chance and it did not work
out for you. Tecnically, you should not have gotten anything back as your signup
bonus was for $500. We decided to give you a break and returned the amount of
your deposit. As for posting or whatever you wish to do, we
do not base our decisions on threats. If we see the need we will answer any
posting to the webmaster or forum master. We are confident that our explanation
and our records will convince anyone that is willing to listen. We will not
adress this issue with you further, the 5 or 6 times that we have so far should
have been more than enough.
Tom Kennedy
Casino Cashier
(a note to anyone who has read this far, they had never to this point explained anything to me. They had changed their story multiple times. Never explained how they were claiming that I had not met my WR's despite their own cashier saying I had. Never explained how what I did was bonus abuse. They are dodging every question i ask, not explaining anything, and refusing to contact me. now without further delay.... my response to the above email!)
Tom,
You resent that I am suggesting that are lying and stealing?
1. You did lie. You have a counter in your cashier that shows how much one must wager before there bonus is no longer hot\locked. I played video poker untll this counter was down to $0 (and lost more then my entire deposit in doing so) and the bonus was moved out of my hot\locked portion. At this point i waited more then 8 days as is required in your terms and conditions. I then returned to the casino and wagered the bonus. I made withdrawals whenever I made a bit of money. The money i withdrew was listed as withdrawable and so I withdrew it. If I didnt withdaw it at that time, then there was a good chance that I would go on losing streak and not be able to cash out anything. This was to much of a risk for me because these little amounts mean alot to me. So I made these small withdrawals, and got very lucky in that I won as much as I did. (NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT I MAY NOT WITHDRAW MY MONEY IN THIS FASHION. It is self evident that i may cash out my own money. What you are suggesting and doing is completely counter intuitive and non-sensical.) I Finally ran out of bonus money. At this point I could have just left it so that there were like 2 dozen withdrawals pending. Instead, I reversed them and changed them into a couple big withdrawals. This is clearly just to help you guys out in processing them.
2.As was specified already, you are stealing my money. The funds that I withdrew were not a bonus any longer. It was my money. Your refusal to pay it is stealing. If i was a at a real casino and took my chips to the cashier, and they refused to give me my winnings in cash, it would be the exact same thing. You feel that because you are an online casino that you are above the law.
3. I am not threatening you in any way. I am the victim here as I'm sure you know. However, If i am to be a victim, I will not simply allow you to keep beating on me. I will not be cheated. I will not be taken advantage of. I suggest that you make sure that all the managers and owners know about your decision to treat me like this. Because they certainly will soon enough. I am not threatening. I am simply holding you accountable in the only way i can. Taking the problem to the masses. And i'm sure you know, the results will be a loss in current and future customers that will total much, much more than $275.
Thank You
Atherm
p.s-for the 8th time, this could be solved much quicker if we were to talk on the phone.
For any that have read this and would like further clarification of the events that took place then feel free to post and I will awnser all questions.
Thanks again to all,
Atherm
