Getting into the black on Blackjack

souldragon

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Location
Kent
Having now played online blackjack for about a year after many years playing at land based casinos,i am struck by how much more difficult it seems to be to win online.Three things in particular stand out;
1. how often the dealer makes blackjack even from a 10 upcard,
2.how often the dealer makes a hand from a bad upcard such as a 4,5,or 6,
3.when doubling,how often the player draws a low card.

Just my experience,but regardless of the software,all the above seem to happen much more frequently than when playing at b&m casinos.Am i being paranoid or do other bj players have the same experiences?
 

Stovetopp

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Location
On the Beach
Having now played online blackjack for about a year after many years playing at land based casinos,i am struck by how much more difficult it seems to be to win online.Three things in particular stand out;
1. how often the dealer makes blackjack even from a 10 upcard,
2.how often the dealer makes a hand from a bad upcard such as a 4,5,or 6,
3.when doubling,how often the player draws a low card.

Just my experience,but regardless of the software,all the above seem to happen much more frequently than when playing at b&m casinos.Am i being paranoid or do other bj players have the same experiences?

I think its the same with video poker...MUY MUY MUY DIFFICIL to get a royal I think it has to do with how computer handles the RN
I know that for 5 years playing Bob Dancer winning poker in practice I have never ever seen a royal flush in any games. and I have played a s%^&$ load of games over those years.
At B&M casinos I thin k I get my fair share
So its the cards pal
 

tinybettor

Dormant Account
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Location
Australia
I too have also experienced the exact same scenarios you have described countless times which prompted me to just stop playing it. It is also the reason why I have transitioned mainly to slots, which whilst I do get the consistent bad runs, I do at times manage to get some big wins here and there.
 

j99352

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Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Location
Southern California
It May Not Be Your Imagination. . . .

See my post for the Main Street Group and my Introduction thread. Only two of 11 casinos I tested for random blackjack play were actually random.
 

bpb

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
PABnonaccred
PABnorogue
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Location
Haverhill
See my post for the Main Street Group and my Introduction thread. Only two of 11 casinos I tested for random blackjack play were actually random.

I think you need to be tested ...
 

catapultaudio

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Location
Leeds, UK
I have never ever seen a royal flush in any games. and I have played a s%^&$ load of games over those years.

I hit a royal playing video poker less than 2 weeks after my first ever on-line game, so they definitely do happen .. though I'm sure I will wait a while to see another one!

As for the blackjack, I personally find RTG can be super streaky and you can win an awful lot very quickly if you bet high, but it works just the same the other way - on a bad run it will hammer the hell out of you !! I've had amazing luck with Microgaming, Playtech, Wagerworks and Netents blackjack games.. and terrible sessions where I lose 19 out of 20 hands too. Exactly the same as my experience in B&M and live dealer games! It's really just the nature of blackjack I would say, but it certainly is frustrating when you just cannot seem to win a hand for love nor money I would agree with that - I have split 8s into 4 hands before, made four 20s inc 2 double downs, then seen the dealer turn his 5 into a 21 ... but i've also turned a £25 deposit into over a grand, so stick at it !! :)
 

Najasaki

Keep It Simple, Stupid.
PABaccred
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Your Happy Place
Having now played online blackjack for about a year after many years playing at land based casinos,i am struck by how much more difficult it seems to be to win online.Three things in particular stand out;
1. how often the dealer makes blackjack even from a 10 upcard,
2.how often the dealer makes a hand from a bad upcard such as a 4,5,or 6,
3.when doubling,how often the player draws a low card.

Just my experience,but regardless of the software,all the above seem to happen much more frequently than when playing at b&m casinos.Am i being paranoid or do other bj players have the same experiences?

I think it all really boils down to your mind. You see, in a B&M casino,
your mind is in a safe zone because all of your senses are used.. The voice of the dealer, the feel
of the cards, the smell of the smoke in the casino.. Your mind expects a fair game because your there.
You might feel that the B&M casino wouldn't do you wrong, therefor your not analyzing streaks as much.
However, while online, those senses are not used and your mind is at a heightened sense of insecurity.
therefor your analyzing the streaks differently than you would at a B&M. Just my opinion
:p
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I think it all really boils down to your mind. You see, in a B&M casino,
your mind is in a safe zone because all of your senses are used.. The voice of the dealer, the feel
of the cards, the smell of the smoke in the casino.. Your mind expects a fair game because your there.
You might feel that the B&M casino wouldn't do you wrong, therefor your not analyzing streaks as much.
However, while online, those senses are not used and your mind is at a heightened sense of insecurity.
therefor your analyzing the streaks differently than you would at a B&M. Just my opinion
:p

Please cease and desist your posting of logical comments based on common sense...they do not belong in a thread about blackjack on an online gambling forum.

Thankyou for your patronage.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
See my post for the Main Street Group and my Introduction thread. Only two of 11 casinos I tested for random blackjack play were actually random.

Which means the other 9 were.

It is very odd for the same group, using the same software, to only cheat players on a couple of the skins.

Take Virtual group for example, they also use RTG, but they cheat players on ALL their skins.

Club World, also RTG, cheat players on NONE of their skins, although they do seem to be irritating players in general over withdrawals on occasion.

What might be useful would be a project to try to understand WHY so many players are sensing that online Blackjack plays so differently from the B&M game, despite the same rules and deck structures being used.

It may be down to online Blackjack shuffling before every hand, whereas B&M use a shoe. It may be than non card counters are unconsciously sensing the effect of shoe penetration, something they don't get online, hence the game "feels different", but they can't say why. If they COULD, it might just be possible to beat it, but we will only believe someone has the "holy grail" system when they flatly refuse to share it with others unless they pay a huge sum up front, and are a few years later driving Ferraris and living in several luxury villas, apartments, and houses despite having sold the system to almost no-one.

I might be interested in trading it for my Microgaming fruit machine system though, but it would need further development, a user friendly GUI, plus an endorsement from a well known statistician and forum member.
 

zap987

Meister Member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Location
Sweden
The reason is you play hands much faster online, and the 'unusual' events come faster in time so it's easier to remember them.
 

243 lines=daft

Dormant Account
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Location
Scotland
Since the widespread prevalence of live dealer casino games within the popular online casinos I can't see why, in this day and age, ANYONE would wager as much as a penny on cartoon blackjack.

If a stranger set up a stall on your street and offered blackjack games where each hand he reached under the table and produced a fresh pack of cards that he promised had been freshly shuffled,
would you play money games with him one-on-one?
I would hope not! But that's exactly the deal you are making whenever you wager on a hand in cartoon blackjack.

Give me Live Dealer blackjack any day (where I can see the shuffle, where the number of players playing changes constantly making it practically unfixable)
 

binary128

Dormant account
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Vancouver, BC
What might be useful would be a project to try to understand WHY so many players are sensing that online Blackjack plays so differently from the B&M game, despite the same rules and deck structures being used.

I read an interesting blog post that discussed the possibility of this "difference in perception" arising from mirror neurons. Because you "experience" the Blackjack wins of the other players at a B&M table, you conclude that a B&M casino game returns more Blackjack wins than an online casino.

Chris
 

Nifty29

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Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Since the widespread prevalence of live dealer casino games within the popular online casinos I can't see why, in this day and age, ANYONE would wager as much as a penny on cartoon blackjack.

If a stranger set up a stall on your street and offered blackjack games where each hand he reached under the table and produced a fresh pack of cards that he promised had been freshly shuffled,
would you play money games with him one-on-one?
I would hope not! But that's exactly the deal you are making whenever you wager on a hand in cartoon blackjack.

Give me Live Dealer blackjack any day (where I can see the shuffle, where the number of players playing changes constantly making it practically unfixable)


Cartoon blackjack. Love it. Aye, you're a canny lad.

I wonder if they use ACME cards.....
 

spoton

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webmeister
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Dec 28, 2011
Location
Right behind you
Im sure there are blackjacks and other table games with adjustet RTPs as there are other sh*t going on in the gambling scene. Personally i find it hard to belive that Netent table games are fair when it comes to the blackjack and carib stud games, eventhough i try to convince myself such a big company wouldnt do anything like that. But ofcourse as we have seen before, there have been other big companies setting their reputation at stake for profit.

I cant belive it how the dealer sometimes wont bust at 5-6s of 4-6 face up cards in a row. In the same way i find it hard to belive how its so easy to get draws at their stud poker, while never hitting the 5. card giving you the flush or the straight in 40-50 draws.

That being said, i prefer slots when playing online as i'm a lowroller that likes to dream about hitting 5000x, rather than doubling it :)
 

PlayHippo

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Location
Sweden
I think it all really boils down to your mind. You see, in a B&M casino,
your mind is in a safe zone because all of your senses are used.. The voice of the dealer, the feel
of the cards, the smell of the smoke in the casino.. Your mind expects a fair game because your there.
You might feel that the B&M casino wouldn't do you wrong, therefor your not analyzing streaks as much.
However, while online, those senses are not used and your mind is at a heightened sense of insecurity.
therefor your analyzing the streaks differently than you would at a B&M. Just my opinion
:p

Please cease and desist your posting of logical comments based on common sense...they do not belong in a thread about blackjack on an online gambling forum.

Thankyou for your patronage.

Haha spot on - Blackjack is a game of imaginary streaks :)

But I do think X-raided has a point - same when it comes to poker online when people are saying things are rigged this way and that way - then when someone asks if they have actually saved their hand history and goes through it they see that it looks ok - there are not rigged games. BUT ON ANOTHER NOTE - some skepticism is always good - there has been a few poker rooms that have been busted because of the hand history - and probably some casino rooms as well with dodgy software.

We are all passionate gamblers - sometimes we are hot - and sometimes we are not
 

souldragon

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Location
Kent
Many thanks for all your comments guys (and to Nifty for his usual witticisms:D).Seems i am not alone in my assumptions.I had not actually considered the live bj games as a viable alternative but the general feeling seems to be that they produce a more realistic pattern than the 'cartoon' version (great phrase btw).Otherwise i think it is a case of sticking to slots online and b&m for blackjack.
 

catapultaudio

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Location
Leeds, UK
Give me Live Dealer blackjack any day (where I can see the shuffle, where the number of players playing changes constantly making it practically unfixable)

I've not played as much live dealer blackjack as I have rng ("cartoon"!) blackjack but so far I think I've only actually seen the dealer shuffle the cards at one casino and the rest of the time I see somebody bring a fresh shoe to the table all ready to go. One thing that I have noticed at multiple casinos though is that the order of the cards seems to be known in advance - for example I see "bust" appear whilst the dealer is still turning over their cards ?!

Playtech offer 'unlimited' blackjack whereby all players can bet on all five hands, and each player chooses to hit or stand seperately meaning another player can bust the hand but you still win if you stood earlier on and the dealer goes on to bust. This brings an interesting loophole in my view because the shoe could be deliberately organised such that the dealer can turn over additional cards that another player has NOT requested without any legitimate player knowing no such request was made, effectively meaning the casino can plan out the entire shoe to a 100% fixed maximum player return %.

Combining these two thoughts, I've decided live dealer blackjack is often only a slightly better bet, but again, I have had some success playing both.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I think the number of hands you can play per minute online exposes your money to so much of the house edge it's very difficult to have a winning session. You can play around 10x as many hands in an hour, possibly more, if you are a seasoned player that knows correct strategy. Found a table that indicated the number of hands with Microgaming as being over 1000 per hour. Under a minute per hand is very fast at a B&M, you don't usually see that at a full table.

Even without card counting, that shuffle after every hand does seem to effect house edge (in favour of the house). I'm not a math head, but I've read it at enough reputable sites to believe it.

Blackjack tournaments use different strategies (like splitting a pair of kings, something you wouldn't do otherwise), and I think it's difficult to draw conclusions about the play from them.
 

catapultaudio

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Location
Leeds, UK
Even without card counting, that shuffle after every hand does seem to effect house edge (in favour of the house). I'm not a math head, but I've read it at enough reputable sites to believe it.

according to the wizard of odds, shuffling after every hand actually benefits the player! I think there was a condition attached though, it might have been in a multi deck game, but I'm certain he says it somewhere.
 

Mozaik

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Holland
Having now played online blackjack for about a year after many years playing at land based casinos,i am struck by how much more difficult it seems to be to win online.Three things in particular stand out;
1. how often the dealer makes blackjack even from a 10 upcard,
2.how often the dealer makes a hand from a bad upcard such as a 4,5,or 6,
3.when doubling,how often the player draws a low card.

Just my experience,but regardless of the software,all the above seem to happen much more frequently than when playing at b&m casinos.Am i being paranoid or do other bj players have the same experiences?

I've experienced the same on many occasions. Although I can only speak for Microgaming and Net Entertainment. I've seen enough bad runs live in a B&M casino seeing the dealer end up on 21 from any count, they do happen. But online it seems to happen every session, like they never give you the opportunity to make a decent profit. Over the years I've never, NOT EVEN ONCE, had (or heard of anyone making) a big profit with playing automatic blackjack during a session. What happened to winning streaks? Do they not exist all of a sudden..

Seems like the online blackjack versions are designed to give you some playtime, and never allowing you to make a big profit. In end the RTP will make sense for most players, since most of us will play on untill we can at least have a decent profit and not stop while being behind.


Just like some other players, I do notice patterns as well. Like sudden delays in the dealing of the cards (no it's not my connection) and perfect doubles on 10 or 11 vs 6, 5 or 4 going desperately wrong more often than they should. No doubt about my mind it's adaptive, higher your bets (2x/3x or 4/x) and you will get dealt 14, 15 or 16 all of a sudden vs a 10 upcard for the dealer.

With the offering of live online blackjack with REAL dealers, you do have a choice. Although the game isn't fast paced, at least it reflects the real game. Don't waste your hard earned money on the software versions, forget about basic strategy, it's a sinking boat...
 

bpb

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
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PABnorogue
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Location
Haverhill
I've experienced the same on many occasions. Although I can only speak for Microgaming and Net Entertainment. I've seen enough bad runs live in a B&M casino seeing the dealer end up on 21 from any count, they do happen. But online it seems to happen every session, like they never give you the opportunity to make a decent profit. Over the years I've never, NOT EVEN ONCE, had (or heard of anyone making) a big profit with playing automatic blackjack during a session. What happened to winning streaks? Do they not exist all of a sudden..

Seems like the online blackjack versions are designed to give you some playtime, and never allowing you to make a big profit. In end the RTP will make sense for most players, since most of us will play on untill we can at least have a decent profit and not stop while being behind.


Just like some other players, I do notice patterns as well. Like sudden delays in the dealing of the cards (no it's not my connection) and perfect doubles on 10 or 11 vs 6, 5 or 4 going desperately wrong more often than they should. No doubt about my mind it's adaptive, higher your bets (2x/3x or 4/x) and you will get dealt 14, 15 or 16 all of a sudden vs a 10 upcard for the dealer.

With the offering of live online blackjack with REAL dealers, you do have a choice. Although the game isn't fast paced, at least it reflects the real game. Don't waste your hard earned money on the software versions, forget about basic strategy, it's a sinking boat...

I'm having trouble finding any part of this that is remotely correct.
 

Janek12

Dormant Account
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Location
Europe
Blackjack is tricky and it took me a while to figure out why.

It is true that it has the lowest edge of all casino games (especially the single-deck blackjack). But it has a much higher variance than for example baccarat or roulette (when even money bets are placed).

In other words, in order to achieve the coveted low house edge, you need to be dealt blackjacks in the statistically expected proportion (roughly 1 BJ in 20 hands) and you also need to be dealt the hands where you split and double and win both hands, effectively winning quadruple of the original stake; and favourable hands for doubling, etc.

If you are not dealt ALL these types of favourable hands exactly in accordance with statistical expectations, the house edge gets drastically higher. And it may take a long time or sometimes a very long time before the percentages of the favourable hands get in line with the statistical expectations.

So the problem, IMO, is that people have their bankroll wiped out before they live to see the favourable hands. And that's what gives them the feeling that the game is rigged while in fact they were just victims of variance.
 

pmutts

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Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Location
North Texas
Typical RTG Blackjack is highly unfavorable

I play Blackjack on a professional level and I have for 30 years. The RTG software is typically 6 decks shuffled "randomly" after every hand. The Dealer Must Hit Soft 17.

The house edge if you are playing perfect basic strategy roughly 1%. Most people do not play perfect basic strategy. In fact, in the RTG game it is generally wise to avoid "perfect basic strategy" in many instances. For example, Splitting 4s vs a 5 or 6--especially if you have a large bet out and you are up a few hundred that will wipe you out 9 out of 10 times in RTG. There are many other examples.

I have experienced a few decent runs playing RTG but they cannot even come close to comparing to countless unbelievable runs in 2001-2006 playing the MG Single Deck Europeon No hole card game. One morning at King Solomon's (they were MG at the time) I got down to $4 and ran it up to over $7000! That will NEVER happen on the RTG game.

With 6 decks of freshly shuffled cards, even if truly shuffled randomly which I do not believe their random is truly RANDOM the house has a tremendous advantage. Personally I believe this advantage exceeds that of a live game. The reason multiple decks favor the house is because of clumping of low cards which highly favor the house. Sure you have clumping of high cards too but how often do both you and the dealer get hard 20 on the deal in RTG? The high card clumps do no benefit the player off the top of the shoe at all in most cases, however, the low card clumping ALWAYS favors the house. The addition of Dealer must Hit Soft 17 give them another .22%.

If playing RTG my advice is to start off with a bet of $10 - $25 (depending on bankroll). If you win double up or at least increase by 50% for the next hand. Continue until you lose a hand. Use your own judgement but don't back down too quickly if they ran good several hands. If the dealer catches 2 in a row, GET OUT! Go back to Slots or VP.

Bottom line, pounce in. If it's good be aggressive. Once the good stops, LEAVE the game. If the good isn't there at all LEAVE the game.
 
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