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Geisha Lounge detucted my $10k winnings

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by mafaldina, Sep 12, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
    Sep 12, 2005
  1. mafaldina

    mafaldina Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Gambler
    Location:
    India
    The casino manager called me on the phone and offered me, if I cancel my $2500 withdrawal request, they will give me 20% bonus. Wagering requirements 40 times on BJ. I played Caribbean 21 and won $10k. I chatted with the manager and he told me, they will deduct my winnings, because I played Caribbean 21, not BJ. Maybe I am not a gambling expert, but Caribbean 21 is a blackjack game for me. Even if this play did not fullfill the wagering requirements, why do they want to deduct my winnings? I can continue the playing on BJ. But the winnings are mine.
    Any suggestion, what to do now? I thought it's a honest casino, because I saw the adv here and at Wizard of Odds.
     
  2. Sep 12, 2005
  3. mafaldina

    mafaldina Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Gambler
    Location:
    India
    Terms and Conditions

    Terms and Conditions


    1. Only players who have registered a Real Account are eligible to receive Promotions.


    2. In order to claim a promotion, qualifying Real Account holders must make their claim via our Cashier unless otherwise stated, ensuring that all the necessary fields are filled in correctly including the correct Coupon Code


    3. Bonuses will be credited to the Player's Real Account as Casino Credits only, unless otherwise stated.


    4. In claiming any bonus offer from the Casino, the player agrees to wager a minimum of twenty times the value of the purchase and the bonus before making a cash in. For example: If you wish to partake in a $200 free for $200 purchase, you must wager an amount of 20x $400. Play on restricted games Roulette, Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met. Once this condition has been fulfilled play on all the restricted games Roulette, Craps War and Baccarat is permitted.

    Wagers on Blackjack (all Blackjack games) and Tricard Poker only count as 1/2 .To qualify for a cash in on these games you will need to wager 40x the purchase and bonus. Additional wagering requirements may be imposed by the casino without prior notice in relation to any specific promotional offer.

    4.2 In order to cash in the bonus, you need to cash in a total amount greater than the sum of the purchase and the bonus. This means that you will only be able to cash in the bonus (or part thereof) if you make a profit on the bonus. If your profit is less than the amount of the bonus, this amount will be credited back to your casino account for you to play with. If you lose more than the amount of the bonus no restrictions will be imposed on your cash-in, other than the wager requirements noted above. For example, if you purchase US$100 and receive a bonus of US$100, then a cash-in of US$190 will result in US$90 being returned to your casino account, and you will only be able to cash-in again once your balance exceeds US$100 (being the amount of the bonus received).


    5. A promotion cannot be used in conjunction with any other promotional offer and only one (1) bonus offer can be claimed per person. Play across multiple accounts is combined, where applicable. The minimum cash in amount is $50 unless otherwise specified.


    6. Bonuses may be refused at the discretion of the management if abuse of promotions is suspected. All cashins will be audited and refused where there is suspected fraud or at the casino management's discretion. Fraudulent bonus claims or cashins will result in the player being charged a processing fee (min. 12% of purchase amount), which will be deducted from their casino balance.


    7. By accepting any prize and/or winnings from the Company, you consent to the use of your name for advertising and promotional purposes without additional compensation except where prohibited by law.


    8. The Company reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice to you. Such amendments will be effective immediately upon being posted in this "Terms and Conditions" section of the Company's Web site. It is your responsibility to review the Terms and Conditions on a regular basis and to check any additional rules detailed within promotional emails. Should you be unclear about any point relating to a specific promotion, it is your responsibility to contact the support team and gain a full understanding before partaking in a promotion.


    9. The Terms and Conditions contained herein represent the complete, final and exclusive agreement between you and the Company and supersede and merge all prior agreements, representations and understandings between you and the Company with regards to the claiming of any promotional or bonus offers.


    10. Any promotion or offer is terminable at any time in accordance with the views of management without prior notice or obligation.


    11. The management reserves the right to disqualify certain countries or individual players from promotional offers. Among the countries whose players are disqualified from promotions are those blacklisted in our General Terms and Conditions. Promotional offers via email, telephone or mail are extended only to the player whom the correspondence is addressed.


    12. Please note that a separate Terms and Conditions exists for the general rules of playing in the Casino.



    I cannot see anything, which states that if I play Caribbean 21 they will deduct my winnings.
     
  4. Sep 12, 2005
  5. Macgyver

    Macgyver Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Why not send the casino rep on here a note and see if he can't help? :what:

    It's really not that hard to find these guys on here ...

    GrandAcesGeisha
     
  6. Sep 12, 2005
  7. Wagerjunction

    Wagerjunction Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Aff Manager
    Location:
    London
    Blackjack Promo

    mafaldina

    I spoke to the Casino and it seem to have this very issue with you during its weekly promtions as well

    You were advised by the Casino manager as you have been advised previously re the weekend promotions that the particular promotion is for play on the game Blackjack only not on variations of 21 games.

    This was done over the phone unfortunately ,i did berate him for this.But nevertheless I am going to urge the Casinos to do the following :

    1) have your winnings deducted ,
    2) your reversal bonus deducted ,
    3) your original winnings sent to you.

    I am also recomending that your account be closed as i think you need to go out and experience the customer service and policies of other Casinos.

    These particular partners are very good and always honour their commitments.I think your tactic of firstly not playing on the agreed game which is Blackjack and then trying to smear its name is not a very wise policy .

    I do feel sorry for you as this is a bitter pill to swallow but you were told that this is for Blackjack only and i can tell you right now that this particular partner will not relent or change their minds regarding this.

    It has also highlighted a particular issue for the partner ,the fact that they have to not only call but to also confirm via email .

    If you have any particular questions regarding this you can either post here or you can PM me ,whichever option you choose is fine by me.

    Best Regards
    Greg
     
  8. Sep 12, 2005
  9. mafaldina

    mafaldina Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Gambler
    Location:
    India
    I do not accept it

    I copied here the Terms and conditions. It does not mention that I cannot play Caribbean 21 and if I play it you will deduct my winnings. So you do not have the right to deduct my winnings.
    I played only Caribbean 21 in Geisha Lounge Casino for example on the Tuesday bonus and everything was OK, the casino paid me!
    The casinomanager did not advice anything to me. However he called me on the phone and we spoke long. But he did not mention Caribbean 21 or any other game, which is restricted. And in the T&C there is nothing about Caribbean 21 and deducting winnings.
    I did not smear any Blackjack name. In the T&C there is nothing about Caribbean 21 is a restricted game.
    So why do you want to deduct my winnings? Who gave you the right? You want to rob my money?
     
  10. Sep 12, 2005
  11. schankwart

    schankwart Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Secret Agent
    Location:
    Colony Gamma
    This is a classical situation.

    It may be true or not that the player was told to NOT play any other game but Blackjack "itself", however, he did not break a single written term and should get paid his winnings in my opinion.

    As per the terms posted on the Casino website mafaldina did not disobey a rule when he decided to play Carribean 21, as it is listed under all "Blackjack games" there.
    Unless he was informed about the ineligibility of this game by email it would be very wrong to not pay him. Phonecalls are easy to be misunderstood and not a great "proof" unless the player explicitly confirmed that he understood the questionable term.

    Geisha most probably meant to disallow the Caribbean 21 game for the bonus, but should have expressed this clearly in their promotional terms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  12. Sep 12, 2005
  13. vedat

    vedat Dormant account

    Location:
    TURKEY
    do you think the things you do fair

    the guy accepts your offer for %20 bonus he doesnt plays roulette baccarate or craps plays bj and wageres 40x reverse cashout +bonus on a bj variant at terms bj variants is ok i really dont think that your manager told him that he can just play blackjack not the variants if you have the phone cenversation you can post it here (normally all casinos record their phone conversasions) by this behaviour you dont act from any other rouge casinos i think meister will solve this
     
  14. Sep 12, 2005
  15. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    This is classic. Maybe they did say that, maybe they didn't, nothing can be proven.

    But the claim is that a decision was made on THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS and nobody could be bothered to send an email out confirming this.

    Certainly it appears that the casino normally classes the Blackjack family games as Blackjack from their other posted t&cs, and any promotion that didn't would be a derogation from this.

    So the casino deviates from its normal rules, accepts $2,500 of the player's money, gives $500 out and can't be bothered to send anything out saying what they'd done?

    Shoddy, very shoddy.

    What does this remind me of?

    Oh yes, that's right, the reverse situation, where the player claims the casino told them that something was ok, but doesn't have a screenshot or chat log.

    And what happens then?

    The player gets jack shit, because they have no proof.

    It's quite likely the player *was* told this, but frankly the bonus abuse argument doesn't really wash with me - no-one takes $2,500 + $500 and turns it into $10,000 without being a gambler. You simply can't do that at a casino expectation game like Caribbean 21, without putting your own funds at substantial risk.

    Which policies would those be?

    The ones where the casino sends the player *WRITTEN NOTICE* when they derogate from their normal playing conditions?

    The ones where the casino *pays* the player who has turned $3,000 into $10,000 by gambling like crazy, and where the casino can provide *NO EVIDENCE* that they have done anything wrong.

    The ones where if the casino offers say a $500 slots bonus (real example from Belle Rock Gaming), then if you play blackjack and win $10k, and cashout, they don't SEIZE THE WHOLE WINNINGS. In fact they won't even seize the bonus, they will simply tell the player to complete the wagering on slots, and when they have wagered the right amount they can cashout.

    This is very very poor.

    You're saying the player was told previously, but have no evidence of this either. The casino has a responsibility to safeguard itself, and if it doesn't, then it must take the consequences.


    Of course in the very likely event that the player had lost his money, nothing would have happened. Had he played this promotion before? Played the same game? Lost his money and nothing was said?

    You can complain about player smears all you like, but it's a situation the casino has placed itself in through multiple failures of policy and practice. This was avoidable.

    Casinos open themselves up to these hassles by offering players bonuses. These bonuses encourage people, who understandably want to make money.

    So you better dot every i and cross every t, because the result of this bonus situation is that it won't take long before a player like this comes a long, and it shouldn't be a surprise to you when they provide your casino with unneeded bad publicity, which could have been avoided with better practice.

    It is no use to say 'the player should be more honest'. People aren't always honest. Casino players, managers - all want to win. There will always be situations like this occurring as a result of this.

    There are only three ways to handle this:
    1. don't offer players bonuses,
    2. pay players when you screw up, or
    3. make sure you cover your ass by putting everything in writing

    Unless you do this, smears and bad publicity are waiting to happen. Avoidable for sure, but unless you do one of these three things, inevitable. To think otherwise is naive, and will lead to this happening again in the future.

    This publicity isn't good - there's another complaint not far below this one - your software told the player that he had met the wagering requirements, and so he went to double up on roulette. When it turned out the software was wrong and he hadn't met them, he had his winnings confiscated.

    Again, bad publicity, but avoidable, by making sure there's no loophole or shortcoming, or by paying up when things aren't clear cut.

    By partner you mean casino?

    It seems like a poor cop out to me. The casino erred, by handing out $500 with no confirmation, and now having found out (apparently) what can happen, they wash their hands and say 'sorry, our mistake, we should send out emails, but you lose anyway'.

    Assuming the casino's story is accurate the player sounds a bit sharp, but frankly I don't believe he can be that poor of a customer for you. All casino games are profitable, and a player who makes $10,000 from $3,000 is demonstrating behaviour that will long-term tend to casino profits.

    Honestly, while these casinos are recommended here, I know for a fact that you just don't get these kind of hassles with Microgaming casinos.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  16. Sep 12, 2005
  17. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Did he say "blackjack" or "blackjack games"?

    By the way, I do NOT support this type of promotion by any casino - this is setting poor ethical standards. Greg, can you possibly talk to the managers about NOT doing this in the future? That way you won't have to deal with issues like this where the terms are not clear.
     
  18. Sep 12, 2005
  19. schankwart

    schankwart Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Secret Agent
    Location:
    Colony Gamma
    Spear, I do not see anything wrong with the promotion itself as long as the player gets send the rules for it. Even some of the most reputable Casinos out there offer promotions upon reversing a withdrawal.
    A screw-up like this could probably happen to any Online-Casino but only the wise and good ones will admit their mistake, pay up and learn of it.

    Geisha should definetely not risk their reputation as it has been quite excellent so far.
     
  20. Sep 12, 2005
  21. phynqster

    phynqster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    The player here said that he has never played anything but Caribbean Blackjack, if that is true, than the player should be paid. There would not be a reason for the casino manager to make a deal with the player on a game the player has never even tried. If the casino can show, that the player was paid previsouly and plays other games than Caribbean Blackjack, than the casinos story makes more sense.
    It does make it difficult to deal with "sharp" players, when players disect rules looking for an advantage. For this reason, some casinos have changed terms by adding key phrases that they can change terms and conditions with out warning. It is a sad state of affaris when you have to deprive 99% of the players, to just watch out for the 1% who tend to abuse the system.
     
  22. Sep 13, 2005
  23. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    The casino has the right to change the terms and conditions, but not retrospectively. Any contract that gives one of parties a unilateral right to change it would be struck down by a court. It should not be beyond casino managers' ability to write watertight T&C, maybe they should hire one of those "sharp" players to help them.
     
  24. Sep 13, 2005
  25. schankwart

    schankwart Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Secret Agent
    Location:
    Colony Gamma
    ...In this case scenario they just needed to say that "Blackjack excludes Blackjack variants" in order to avoid this confusion.

    It would not have harmed anyone.
     
  26. Sep 13, 2005
  27. phynqster

    phynqster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    True, but why?
    We are not dealing in a perfect black and white bussiness. As almost every complaint that is posted, it is usually an "interpatation" of the rules. There are a number of different sections of rules in most casinos sites. Each casino is a little different from one another , even with in the same family. There are a number of different languages present , and definitions on what the terms should be.
    I wih that there was a general terms and conditions for all casinos that would be 100% the same, and I would hope that one day that could be regulated untill than. When I ran a casino, I asked for skilled players to read my rules and give comments, and the only replies I received were that, "Why should I help you, when I could exploit them for my own benifit". I have read terms and conditions at over 200 casinos, and I have yet to find one casino I could not exploit.
    In fact most contracts can not cover everything possible, and courts will listen to what " a reasonable person" interpete them.
     
  28. Sep 13, 2005
  29. phynqster

    phynqster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    Shank my post was in regards to Grandmaster. As for yours, what are variants? We have had some casinos claim that three card poker is a variant. When you go to Vegas, almost ever table game with cards is considered a variant. In fact the "blackjack" dealt on machines are considered "Video poker" and do not have to abide by the same rules. I think that anytime the human factor is brought in to play, there will be problems.
    Off thread a little,
    I was playing black jack in Vegas at a well known strip casino, and over time had 10 blackjacks, and pushed everytime. When I told the pitboss, he told me he would pay me 10 to 1 if it happened on my next one, when I got a blackjack I called him over, when the dealer also turned over black jack, he refused to pay me 1000.00 because he said that casino has signs posted "that no verbal bets allowed". I told him that it was bullshit, but he said if they paid me or gave me anything, than it would set a presedent, so there was nothing I could do. This was hotel I was rated at , and have never returned, and this would have been chump change for them.I had given them 10 times that amount in the past and would have given more in the future, but there was NO compromise.
     
  30. Sep 13, 2005
  31. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    I must admit this looks like another horrible case of another supposedly respectable casino attempting to screw over a player when the casino makes an error.

    A couple of points:

    1) A casino MUST follow it's terms and conditions as emailed to the player or posted on the site. Verbal agreements can not and should not be relied upon as misinterpretation can easily happen on either side. This works both ways obviously. By the terms posted by the player obviously nothing excludes play on the game they played.

    2) GrandAcesGeisha - even if it turns out you do have evidence that the player was indeed informed that they weren't allowed to play Caribean21, please explain where in your terms it gives you the right to steal players winnings when they play excluded games? I cannot see this anywhere in your terms.
     
  32. Sep 13, 2005
  33. schankwart

    schankwart Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    Secret Agent
    Location:
    Colony Gamma
    I see and understand your point, Phynqster. However, written agreements exist in any form of business that I can think of on this planet, not just Online Casinos.

    When it really comes to the point of misinterpretation, common sense usually needs to be applied first. In this case the Casino also mentions "BlackJack variants" under "Blackjack"-terms, what makes the situation even more obvious.
    Its always the Casinos that can stretch their own terms in any direction, as they are the ones holding the funds. If they want to take someones money "the nasty way" they may try so, but dont need to be surprised when customers stay away soon after.
    It is the word of mouth that makes roguesters what they are and raises up Top-Notch Casinos as well.

    Problems such as this one NEVER occur at any reputable outfit out there, which does not surprise me at all. Honesty as well as respect pays back MUCH more than most Casino operators out there can only imagine!
    If there are no details of the story missing then this group has now lost a huge amount of credibility to me. :(
     
  34. Sep 13, 2005
  35. JohnGalt

    JohnGalt Dormant account

    Location:
    iugljk
    This is the important point here. Even if it was an excluded game (for wagering purposes), nowhere does it say play on excluded games voids the player's winnings. At the very least the player should be able to fulfill the wagering requirements in BJ and then cash out.
     
  36. Sep 13, 2005
  37. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    This is showing poor ethics. Imagine trying to leave a casino in Vegas, and the pitboss says "Hey! Come play blackjack 40x with us and I'll give you RFB".

    In Vegas, this would be considered very poor form - possibly even illegal - to openly solicit one's play.

    Promotions should NEVER be offered to players as an incentive for them to cancel a withdrawal. I would personally advise against playing at any casino that does this. Reminds me of Honest Joe making his very-special, last-ditch, only-for-you offer on that lemon in the parking lot that you just passed on.

    Some of you might like these bonuses - but then don't come crying to us when you get burnt like this.
     
  38. Sep 13, 2005
  39. mafaldina

    mafaldina Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Gambler
    Location:
    India
    Thanks

    Thanks for your opinion.

    I do not remember exactly did the manager mention on the phone any game to play or not, but he did not mention restricted games. I did not get any email about this promotion. And in T&C they do not mention Caribbean 21 and earlier I played this game in the casino, when I received the welcome bonus and once on Tuesday on a promotion and there was no problem at all. I only played this game in the this casino. I am quite new in the casino, played there for 1-2 weeks only. When I lost, the casino took away my money, when I won the casino paid me. Nobody mentioned that I played on any wrong game. In the event now I cancelled a withdrawal request from tuesday promotion winnings and I reached this winnings on Caribbean 21!!!
    I accept if Caribbean 21 is not fullfill wagering requirements, but earlier
    it fullfilled and they did not change the T&C. But I do not accept they want to rob my winning. If Caribbean 21 is not OK, then I will continue the playing on BJ and fullfill the wagering requirements there. In the T&C they do not mention deducting winnings.
    But now I am confused, do not know what to do.
    I fullfilled the wagering requirements of this promotion, I have more than $13000 on my account. The manager told me in the chat, they will deduct my winnings. Here the casino operator wrote they will deduct my winnings. But until this time nobody deducted anything. Can I request a cashout now? Will I get my winnings?
     
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