Lolo1and2

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Morroco
Indeed :confused:

Wrong forum, meant for Farce Book maybe :what:

No was talking about the responsible gaming policy Farce. Which in fact shows little regard for customers and no responsibility. Any claim they have is ludicrous as they have no player awareness system in place. Does this apply to all playcherry casinos?
 
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Lolo1and2

Newbie member
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
No was talking about the responsible gaming policy Farce. Which in fact shows little regard for customers and no responsibility. Any claim they have one is ludicrous. They have no real player awareness system in place.
 
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Lolo1and2

Newbie member
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
1. What is the law on when a casino should take your identification. After the 1st deposit 2nd or are they within the law to wait 6 months.
2. What are the responsible gaming laws? And how are they upheld. As I see it at the moment the casinos hold no player responsibility and to maintain they do is ludicrous.
3. Do casinos have an obligation by law to publish a six monthly audit showing an average return to players? If not why not.
4 Is it legal for a casino to take money from a bank account through a third party if the bank account is in a country that has no jurisdiction to play in their country?
5 .Is it possible for a casino to link the games. IE the return to player is across all the games in the casino not one game. And can a casino put a limit on how much you can win? IE can their technical team set this up for them?

I see they have just added UK gambling awareness sites to the bottom of their site. They don't even have jurisdiction for UK players what's that about. No one playing in Europe is going to go to a UK site.

Apparently it's in excess of 2329.37euros they are obliged to ask for
Identification!
I'm aware the MGA just pass you back to the casino gaming is Maltas bread and butter. So who is there for the players.

The online gaming industry is growing fast yet the laws and the protection for players is lagging. I't needs addressing. The industry as in all big business is closed there is no real transparency. There needs to be. The online market is a faceless market there need to be much much tougher guidelines for the casinos. Does anyone think a social media campaign would help bring this about.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
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The online gaming industry is growing fast yet the laws and the protection for players is lagging. I't needs addressing. The industry as in all big business is closed there is no real transparency. There needs to be. The online market is a faceless market there need to be much much tougher guidelines for the casinos. Does anyone think a social media campaign would help bring this about.

A social media campaign may well work on an individual company, but it seems that when you are trying to influence a whole industry sector what matters are deep pockets. One reason laws remain lax in some industries is the extensive lobbying that goes on behind the scenes. Many of the licensing jurisdictions used by the online casino industry are small island nations or tiny states that did not merge with the bigger nations. They are so small that the fees they get from licensing online casinos can be a significant proportion of national revenue. There is an obvious conflict of interest, and the risk is that if one such country improves it's regulatory regime, the online casinos will simply bail to another that is more forgiving.

When the Kahnawake decided to radically improve the way it policed the online casinos it licensed, many bailed and went to places like Curacao and Malta. Grand prive bailed when the group broke the terms of it's Kahnawake license and was facing a fine, which as far as I know it never paid, and they didn't care whether or not Kahnawake yanked it's license as a result since it had already bailed. It also bailed from it's software provider (Microgaming)and it's affiliates, leaving many unpaid debts behind.

To get a meaningful improvement, ALL licensing jurisdictions need to come together and agree some international standards, so that there is nowhere to bail to when things get tough. Unfortunately, it seems the rogues are ready one step ahead, they are faking licences or finding even tinier jurisdictions that will let them set up a base there and say they are "licenced" there. One long running example of this is Costa Rica. There has never been such a thing as a gambling licence in Costa Rica, but many casinos claim to be "Licensed by Costa Rica" in a way that suggests there is some kind of regulatory regime to police their activity, whereas all they have is permission from the government of Costa Rica to operate from a base there, and the main criteria is that they must provide employment to locals. One operation was SO rogue that even the Costa Rican authorities came after them, but it wasn't down to how they were treating players, but down to them screwing over their local employees, and then bailing from the country.
 

Lolo1and2

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Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
Then there needs to be a different strategy to make sure that the industry isn't stopped the operators make some profit yet lives are not ruined. The really big companies could get together and just say we are closing ranks and closing down until everyone falls into line.
Idealistic yet true. The veil is lifting on all corruption at the moment the good guys have to be ahead.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
Interesting.

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Yes, it shows the huge growth in online against the more modest growth in their land based businesses. Shutting down online gambling would severely dent the company, but if players continue to get ripped off by rogue operators, it will increase calls for the whole industry to be shut down on the grounds of "customer protection", which in reality means "protection of land based businesses and government revenue from competition".
 

Lolo1and2

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Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
Yes, it shows the huge growth in online against the more modest growth in their land based businesses. Shutting down online gambling would severely dent the company, but if players continue to get ripped off by rogue operators, it will increase calls for the whole industry to be shut down on the grounds of "customer protection", which in reality means "protection of land based businesses and government revenue from competition".


It looks like they want to get into the uk online market which is huge. Will have to sharpen up their act if they want that.

I wonder who the main shareholders are it says there that not even the board know!

Because the online games are faceless. More questions need to be asked when depositing each time. IE ....Are you currently in employment. Have you ever been excluded from any online casino. And a warning that you are very likely to loose this money. There could be a box that you tick. And the staff need to be properly trained to spot problems and stop them before they get too bad. That would really tighten things up. Alot of problem gambling stems from some other worry. It's not morally right that the casinos just shrug their shoulders and say it's nothing to do with us.
 

interlog

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Because the online games are faceless. More questions need to be asked when depositing each time. IE ....Are you currently in employment. Have you ever been excluded from any online casino. And a warning that you are very likely to loose this money. There could be a box that you tick. And the staff need to be properly trained to spot problems and stop them before they get too bad. That would really tighten things up. Alot of problem gambling stems from some other worry. It's not morally right that the casinos just shrug their shoulders and say it's nothing to do with us.

Isn't there enough regulation already as it is?

Perhaps it is my age showing, but I was always taught to take responsibility for my own actions, rather than seeking to put the blame elsewhere for my actions / mistakes.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
Because the online games are faceless. More questions need to be asked when depositing each time. IE ....Are you currently in employment. Have you ever been excluded from any online casino. And a warning that you are very likely to loose this money. There could be a box that you tick. And the staff need to be properly trained to spot problems and stop them before they get too bad. That would really tighten things up. Alot of problem gambling stems from some other worry. It's not morally right that the casinos just shrug their shoulders and say it's nothing to do with us.

This is one of the things we now have in the UK, and if they want a UK licence they are going to have to implement these "responsible gambling" measures. With exclusion, simply asking the player isn't going to be enough. The UK regime is planning to require all industry participants to use a central database of players who are excluded due to them having gambling problems, and the onus is on the casino to check this, not for the player to fess up (which problem gamblers tend not to do because if their willpower has broken sufficiently for them to try a new casino, they are not going to say anything that will get them banned on the spot). Casinos serving the UK already have a duty of care to monitor players for the signs that they might have a gambling problem, and to intervene if necessary.

Asking for a player's employment status or details of means tends to be regarded as an invasion of privacy, and players feel this is a step too far. However, a ban on the use of CREDIT cards for funding deposits should go some way to curbing those who find themselves "on tilt", and unable to stop their excesses in the heat of the moment. Whilst they can always get a cash advance off the credit card and then get that into the casino, it involves some effort, and this provides "breathing space" where a player may have time to come back "off tilt" and then think "WTF am I doing!!" as they walk back from the ATM with the cash from their card to find a paypoint outlet selling Paysafe vouchers, or whatever means can be used to buy online credit vouchers for cash in their country.
 

Lolo1and2

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Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
Yes. Yet it's well known that gambling is very addictive and if someone's defences are low for some other reason they are more likely to go too far and those people need to be weeded out. This would be one way it would also help the casinos because a disclaimer would have been signed. I't can't be very pleasant for the people working in the casinos having distressing other people. And it's no skin of anyone else's nose to simply tick a box.
 

interlog

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webmeister
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People already tick boxes when signing up at casinos, yet there are still complaints. People don't read all of the T's and C's because they either can't be arsed or they are too complicated.
 

Lolo1and2

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Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
This is one of the things we now have in the UK, and if they want a UK licence they are going to have to implement these "responsible gambling" measures. With exclusion, simply asking the player isn't going to be enough. The UK regime is planning to require all industry participants to use a central database of players who are excluded due to them having gambling problems, and the onus is on the casino to check this, not for the player to fess up (which problem gamblers tend not to do because if their willpower has broken sufficiently for them to try a new casino, they are not going to say anything that will get them banned on the spot). Casinos serving the UK already have a duty of care to monitor players for the signs that they might have a gambling problem, and to intervene if necessary.

Asking for a player's employment status or details of means tends to be regarded as an invasion of privacy, and players feel this is a step too far. However, a ban on the use of CREDIT cards for funding deposits should go some way to curbing those who find themselves "on tilt", and unable to stop their excesses in the heat of the moment. Whilst they can always get a cash advance off the credit card and then get that into the casino, it involves some effort, and this provides "breathing space" where a player may have time to come back "off tilt" and then think "WTF am I doing!!" as they walk back from the ATM with the cash from their card to find a paypoint outlet selling Paysafe vouchers, or whatever means can be used to buy online credit vouchers for cash in their country.



They don't even comply to the maltese indenification procedures. So I doubt they will manage that . There's another Newby today saying he's lost everything hasn't paid his rent and that should not be happening to the extent it is.

People already tick boxes when signing up at casinos, yet there are still complaints. People don't read all of the T's and C's because they either can't be arsed or they are too complicated.


I said on each deposit with a debit or credit card. Things can change between when you sign up and the day you are depositing.

This is one of the things we now have in the UK, and if they want a UK licence they are going to have to implement these "responsible gambling" measures. With exclusion, simply asking the player isn't going to be enough. The UK regime is planning to require all industry participants to use a central database of players who are excluded due to them having gambling problems, and the onus is on the casino to check this, not for the player to fess up (which problem gamblers tend not to do because if their willpower has broken sufficiently for them to try a new casino, they are not going to say anything that will get them banned on the spot). Casinos serving the UK already have a duty of care to monitor players for the signs that they might have a gambling problem, and to intervene if necessary.

Asking for a player's employment status or details of means tends to be regarded as an invasion of privacy, and players feel this is a step too far. However, a ban on the use of CREDIT cards for funding deposits should go some way to curbing those who find themselves "on tilt", and unable to stop their excesses in the heat of the moment. Whilst they can always get a cash advance off the credit card and then get that into the casino, it involves some effort, and this provides "breathing space" where a player may have time to come back "off tilt" and then think "WTF am I doing!!" as they walk back from the ATM with the cash from their card to find a paypoint outlet selling Paysafe vouchers, or whatever means can be used to buy online credit vouchers for cash in their country.

An international list is needed too.
 
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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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I said on each deposit with a debit or credit card. Things can change between when you sign up and the day you are depositing.

UK facing casinos are getting their cage rattled over complex terms and sly changes by the CMA. The UKGC seem to have realised they are out of their depth, and are who called in the CMA to investigate the way in which casino do business in the UK. Whilst it could all come to nothing, it could also result in fines and the imposition of significant changes in the business model.
 

Lolo1and2

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Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
UK facing casinos are getting their cage rattled over complex terms and sly changes by the CMA. The UKGC seem to have realised they are out of their depth, and are who called in the CMA to investigate the way in which casino do business in the UK. Whilst it could all come to nothing, it could also result in fines and the imposition of significant changes in the business model.

That's good because it's really needed. Maybe Morton Klien can help clean up the international issues. He looks like a kind man. Someone needs to look at it
 
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maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
@ lolo1 : Where to start? Let's begin with the Posting Rules which you should re-read by the way. So far you have the following violations against you:
  • Rule 1.1 "No Flaming": you've repeatedly tried to harass and belittle the casino rep.
  • Rule 1.2 "No Cross-Posting": you've started three different threads to complain about your issue with EuroLotto. I've since combined the lot of them here. Please stop.
  • Rule 1.11 "Personal Agenda": since your PAB against EuroLotto did not go your way -- primarily because your complaint was that the casino should have been watching your play patterns and somehow gleaned that you were not gambling responsibly -- you've gone out of your way to damage their reputation on the forums.
  • Rule 1.18 "Don't be a PITA": see above.

The bottom line is that you've made your point -- although I did and still totally disagree that the casino is responsible for anticipating player problems and unilaterally taking action to "protect" the player -- and you've tried the PAB route and failed. At this point I think it's fair to say that you've been given plenty of slack and you've certainly had your say. Anything further targeted at this casino would be continued harassment and an attempt to damage their reputation: please don't.

And please consider for a moment the implications of your suggestion that the casino should be free to monitor and take action against players "for their own good". Can you not see that such a policy would be a nightmare for players? You're playing along enjoying yourself and boom! Deposits returned and you're locked out of your account. You complain and all the casino has to say is "we suspected a problem". And by the way, it's not just that casino you're locked out of, it's all casinos in their network. And if the industry-wide SE database ever happens you could find yourself banned across the industry. Because of what? Somebody somewhere thought your bets were looking a little funny?

In an industry where it's an ongoing struggle to get many casinos to deal fairly with their players I submit that giving them the powers you suggest would be a perpetual "get out of jail free" card for every kind of devious and underhanded dirty trick they could dream up.

Q: Why did you stop that player in mid-play and lock his account without warning?
A: We suspected problem gambling.

Q: Where did that player's winnings go?
A: We suspected problem gambling.

Q: Why have you not paid a single player this month?
A: We suspect problem gambling.

Q: Why are the only players you have paid all bots that you are running on your site?
A: They're the only players who we don't suspect of problem gambling.

NOT a good idea. IMHO.
 

Lolo1and2

Newbie member
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Location
Morroco
@ lolo1 : Where to start? Let's begin with the Posting Rules which you should re-read by the way. So far you have the following violations against you:
  • Rule 1.1 "No Flaming": you've repeatedly tried to harass and belittle the casino rep.
  • Rule 1.2 "No Cross-Posting": you've started three different threads to complain about your issue with EuroLotto. I've since combined the lot of them here. Please stop.
  • Rule 1.11 "Personal Agenda": since your PAB against EuroLotto did not go your way -- primarily because your complaint was that the casino should have been watching your play patterns and somehow gleaned that you were not gambling responsibly -- you've gone out of your way to damage their reputation on the forums.
  • Rule 1.18 "Don't be a PITA": see above.

The bottom line is that you've made your point -- although I did and still totally disagree that the casino is responsible for anticipating player problems and unilaterally taking action to "protect" the player -- and you've tried the PAB route and failed. At this point I think it's fair to say that you've been given plenty of slack and you've certainly had your say. Anything further targeted at this casino would be continued harassment and an attempt to damage their reputation: please don't.

And please consider for a moment the implications of your suggestion that the casino should be free to monitor and take action against players "for their own good". Can you not see that such a policy would be a nightmare for players? You're playing along enjoying yourself and boom! Deposits returned and you're locked out of your account. You complain and all the casino has to say is "we suspected a problem". And by the way, it's not just that casino you're locked out of, it's all casinos in their network. And if the industry-wide SE database ever happens you could find yourself banned across the industry. Because of what? Somebody somewhere thought your bets were looking a little funny?

In an industry where it's an ongoing struggle to get many casinos to deal fairly with their players I submit that giving them the powers you suggest would be a perpetual "get out of jail free" card for every kind of devious and underhanded dirty trick they could dream up.

Q: Why did you stop that player in mid-play and lock his account without warning?
A: We suspected problem gambling.

Q: Where did that player's winnings go?
A: We suspected problem gambling.

Q: Why have you not paid a single player this month?
A: We suspect problem gambling.

Q: Why are the only players you have paid all bots that you are running on your site?
A: They're the only players who we don't suspect of problem gambling.

NOT a good idea. IMHO.



No intent to damage any person. Just see the industry needs a shake up. Vinylweatherman seems to see the problem. I will not post again.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... Vinylweatherman seems to see the problem.

Stick around a while. You'll find that VWM is able to "see" many problems -- some real, others less so -- and expound at great length thereon.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
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Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
No intent to damage any person. Just see the industry needs a shake up. Vinylweatherman seems to see the problem. I will not post again.

Please don't throw your toys out of the tram. We always like a good debate/discussion - but please abide by our rules. Thank you.
 
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