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Gaming Club (BelleRock) Summary Ban Unexplained & Uncertain Payout.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by BustedFlush, Feb 14, 2012.

    Feb 14, 2012
  1. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    Hi, unfortunately my first post is a complaint about BelleRock casinos. I have previously only joined accredited casinos via this site and thus I am surprised to be posting this. I am (was) a member of a few of their MG sites, and am slightly up on 3 and down on another, overall a few hundred up. They have been, prior to now, seemingly good with prompt payouts and friendly CS.
    I recently tried to log into my Gaming Club account and was locked out. About 2 weeks before, I opened it, deposited and played for several hours eventually making a w/d which left me 100ish in profit. Received the w/d the following Thursday, and redeposited 20 that Thursday before I went to work in the morning. I played this for half an hour and stopped when I got to (for about the 4th. time) the cashout minimum of £50. I cashed out and went out.
    Sunday I tried to log in to see if it had been 'processed' or was still 'work in progress' as MG banking does. I was locked out. I immediately contacted live support and was informed "All my BelleRock a/c's have been closed due to 'negativity being detected'.."
    What on earth is that about? Straight away this breaks several terms of the accreditation status listed on here for casinos. Anyway, to save too much typing I enclose a (names removed) transcript of the chat:
    R***S:
    Hi. Welcome to Casino support. How can i help you today?

    ME:
    my account is locked!

    R**S:
    Hi ****

    R**S:
    Can you please confirm your phone number and email address for me please?

    ME:
    0***********

    ME:
    ******@*****.com

    R**S:
    Excellent. I'm just getting your details for you now.

    R***S:
    which account are you referring to ******?

    ME:
    this one gaming club

    R**S:
    thanks

    R**S:
    One moment for me *****

    ME:
    hello

    R***S:
    Thanks for waiting for me *******.

    R***S:
    Casino management have detected negativity on your account and have therefore closed all of your accounts with us.

    ME:
    what does that mean?

    ME:
    helloi

    R****S:
    It means that casino management have made the decision to close your accounts and will not be re opening them

    ME:
    yes i know but why?

    ME:
    what about my w/d of 50 i made thursday AM?

    R***S:
    you will still get your withdrawal of £50. I dont have any further details on the closure

    ME:
    has it been processed yet?

    R***S:
    i'll just check for you now

    R***S:
    Yes. It was released on the 7th for you

    ME:
    thats impossible as i didn't w/d it until the 9th!

    ME:
    9th!

    ME:
    i don't mean the one of 400 i already got that i mean the one of 50

    R***S:
    sorry. My mistake. One moment please

    R**S:
    Sorry again. Your withdrawal of £50.** will be leaving us on Monday, but has not left yet.

    ME:
    so i will get it then?

    R***S:
    let me double check on that for you *****

    R***S:
    *******, the withdrawal has not left us yet. It will be down to casino management if the withdrawal will be released or not.

    ME:
    and i would like to know why i have been banned i havent won that much

    ME:
    bellerock are accredited casinos according to casinomeister and i didn't expect this.#

    R***S:
    As i said earlier *******, i dont have any reasons on your account as to why its closed. It was a casino management decision and thats all i know

    ME:
    so will they e-mail me to explain?

    R***S:
    Probably the best thing for you to do *******, is to email us and you will get a response that way.

    R****S:
    This email is not visible to you.

    ME:
    what's the point, as long as i get my 50 quid back i'm ok.

    ME:
    i'll have nothing to complain about or pitch-a-bitch about on casinomeister and that's it i'll never play online again as trust is gone now.

    R****S:
    ok. As i said earlier *******, it will be down to casino management as to whether you will or wont get your withdrawal. I will pass your details on to them but you wont hear from them until Monday at the earliest

    The chat has ended.

    The chat was abruptly ended. No explanation. Summary closures. No indication of whether I get paid or not. This cannot be right. Yes, I DID mention Casinomeister but only in the context I joined through the CM accredited list and for this fact expected in return some help on CM for my issues.
    I state in my chat that I'm not bothered as long as I get paid, but with hindsight that's not strictly true; the summary and accusatory way in which I've been treated deserves some explanation on here. If this is the hassle I get from accredited casinos, God forbid I should join one that isn't.

    As of yet I haven't been paid nor received any communication from them. I will, of course, update this should I be paid, in the interests of honesty and integrity.
    There cannot be ANY justifiable circumstance under any rules or regs. whereby a casino can retain deposits AND payouts, as this is tantamount to theft. I hope this is not a path Gaming Club take.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  2. Feb 15, 2012
  3. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Your deposit at the very least should be returned. The winnings are another story.

    In my experience, casino groups pretty much only summarily close accounts when fraud, usually identity or multiple accounts etc, is detected. The fact that they gave you no opportunity to state your case usually means its a clear cut case.

    I'm not accusing you of fraud, I'm merely stating what normally precipitates this kind of action.

    You should contact the rep, and/or pitch a bitch here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/problems.php

    I'm curious as to why you stated you didn't want to bother with a PAB though.....if I had my accounts closed for no reason I would be raising all kinds of hell....but then its never happened to me in 14 years.
     
  4. Feb 15, 2012
  5. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    As above - you could also lodge a complaint online with eCOGRA - I think this casino group is accredited by them.

    There's also the licensing jurisdiction, which in this case is Gibraltar, if I recall correctly.

    Plenty of options if you feel you have a good case.
     
  6. Feb 15, 2012
  7. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Stating that negativity on the ops account was the culprit raises more questions than answers especially when live chat is unable/unwilling to elaborate. The decent thing to do would be for the casino, on locking the account, to send an email to the player informing him of the course of action and a reason for it. In addition, as the w/d was initiated prior to the lock the op should be paid in full unless there was fraudelent activity for the playing session(s) in question.

    The OP should also refrain from mentioning casinomeister during the chat sessions as it seems there is exercising of undue influence to get desired results.
     
  8. Feb 15, 2012
  9. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    Hmmmm....well most online casinos have a term that states they can close your account for any reason (or no reason) at any time. That being said, I probably have 50+ casino accounts and although some of them I don't play much, I've never had a casino close an account on me.

    Personally if it was me, I'd want to know what this 'negativity on my account' is about whether I planned to play there any more or not, because it might just affect my play at other casinos.

    So my advice is, send a mail to support, and if you don't get a clear response, shoot a message to Cobus, maybe he can clarify.
     
  10. Feb 15, 2012
  11. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    Thanks for comments.

    As of today still no communication nor payment of any amount. A Thursday w/d going on past w/d's would have been in my bank by now so obviously some payment avoidance going on now.

    To answer a few points, in order:
    Firstly PAB is an extreme last resort action usually, and as the first reply said, a more pertinent action would be to contact the rep, which I shall do hence. I wouldn't think PAB has a point, unless I don't get paid, even then the amounts are small. As for kicking up a storm for summary banning as the first reply states, it's like going to a pub and getting bad or rude service - as long as I got my pint and it was what I paid for, that's the end of the matter and I simply don't go back; there's plenty of other pubs and a letter to the management is not required.
    Yes, I do wonder at the extreme ambiguity of the term 'negativity' - it's like being arrested by the Police and then asking why for only to be told 'for something or other'.
    I have accounts (had) at a few BelleRock properties, nothing against any rules, and as far as I am aware not a duplicate at any single one. I have played at those accounts for a period of weeks with no hassle. None has asked for the document submission even when winning, so must be satisfied with my credentials. I have ALL the required card scans, ID and bills ready here to send by return of e-mail, I can even send a screenshot of my online banking statement showing my last Gaming CLub deposits and w/d of 400 (the one mentioned in the chat session and confirmed as paid by the chat rep.)
    This is what is strange IMO - I could understand if I had already been asked for docs and failed to provide, or the veracity of the docs was questionable but I've had NO communication at all and prior to this nonsense deposited and received winnings with no hassle. I have fulfilled all bonus obligations at the properties. I have quit playing and w/d when ahead on most - maybe that's 'negativity'. We could speculate all day what the hell 'negativity' is supposed to mean. Did their software secretly switch my webcam on while I was playing and they decided I had the wrong colour sweatshirt on? Did they catch me downloading 'A$$ Ladies' in another window while playing? Did I pick my nose during a WildStorm (sorry MildDrizzle) feature?
    All I do know is that I have been treated rudely in an accusatory fashion by an 'accredited' casino. I have had deposit taken , winnings not paid. I had a chat with an evasive rep.

    As the last reply intimated, a casino's rules and t&c's could be precise'd in one short sentence. 'Once we have your money payout is discretionary.' :mad:
     
  12. Feb 15, 2012
  13. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    FWIW I shot a PM to Cobus and he said he'd be contacting the OP.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Feb 15, 2012
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I have not heard this one before, but it sounds like the usual bullshit when they want to get rid of a winner. It can mean anything, and the vagueness is deliberate. They have suspicions, but no proof. Opening accounts so close together can have made them suspicious. Their other trick is to delay their withdrawal for 10 days all of a sudden. They pulled this stunt on me a while back, and that was the last deposit they saw from me. The lack of payment probably means they are pulling the same stunt on you, but pointlessly so, since you cannot be tempted to reverse the money and play it (which is why they try this 10 day trick on some players).

    They also lied to Simmo when he asked the rep about this 10 day pending period when it first happened to a German player. When it later happened to me, they got found out and I was able to confirm this was a "secret" policy change, and that they had lied to Simmo by saying there had been no change to 10 day pending periods.

    It later turned out that only some players had been affected, and they quickly backed down when this became public knowledge on the forum, and the German player was told he would no longer be on 10 day pending.

    I also question their integrity after this experience, which is why I uninstalled Lucky Nugget after this episode. I did get paid on day 11, so it never went to PAB.

    If they didn't ask for documents, but paid out initially, it is down to electronic ID checks with UK credit reference agencies. It is possible that the "negativity" is down to a problem with your ID on these credit files which at first they did not spot. Usually, it is about multi accounting, but in such cases casinos will say so, rather than hide behind vague terms like "negativity". In your case, the more likely problem is that your deposit methods do not link properly to your registration details, and they have a suspicion that there might be a problem regarding the money you are using which would only backfire weeks later. This has been known to happen when players deposit quite legitimately from joint accounts held with a partner or spouse. All the casino can detect is that the name and address on the source of the money is not an EXACT match to your ID.

    The final explanation is good old "bonus abuse", but again casinos tend to say so, rather than beat around the bush.

    If they pay up, you could forget it and look elsewhere, but if you worry that this "negativity" could end up on a shared industry database and prejudice your play elsewhere, you should PAB in order to get the matter cleared up, or at least pinned down more accurately so that you can make an informed choice about what to do about it.

    BelleRock no longer have a "true" player rep, Cobus is the affiliate rep, and can only refer the matter through to the casino management.
     
  16. Feb 15, 2012
  17. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again

    Ahhh Vinyl.....I see the keyboard is well rested.

    It's nice to see your motto (newbs see below) is still close to your heart

    ("Typus infinitum" loosely translated as "There's nothing that can be said in 25 words that cant be said in 500')

    :D
     
  18. Feb 15, 2012
  19. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    Gaming Club should be paying your current withdrawal. If they don't want your business after that, I don't think you have much recourse.

    "Negativity" could just mean that you are not profitable for the casino, and they have decided you are not likely to be. Frequent small deposits and frequent small withdrawals generate a certain amount of processing fees and administrative costs. When you withdrew $400, you had the nerve to only redeposit $20, and then withdraw again when you had the minimum withdrawal amount available. Disciplined gamblers do not have the highest profit margin.

    If you took a number of sign-up bonuses with the group in a relatively short period of time, they may consider you to be an "advantage player", a more polite term for bonus abuser.

    Sometimes even the affiliate you join from can be a source of problems. If it is one that focuses on beating bonuses, you can be labelled as potentially undesirable from the get-go.

    While I wish you success in getting to the root of this "negativity", casinos tend to be close-lipped about such matters.

    If you have had credit card charge backs, even for non-gaming related matters, this could be a source of problems in the future as well.
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Feb 15, 2012
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    If it's only about profitabilty and bonuses, then this should not affect play outside of Bellerock group. The problem is they have not been clear enough about this, and therefore could lead you into thinking that this matter is trivial, when it could actually be pretty serious, but nothing to do with something you have done, but down to database errors with the credit agencies used to electronically verify your ID. The fact that they have never asked for documents, and suddenly decided you had "negativity on your account", is too vague to determine whether this is merely a business decision, or veiled accusation of fraud which will end up being passed to other casinos unrelated to Bellerock, and lead to further problems when you take your business elsewhere as you intend.

    They would of course have no grounds for voiding your current winnings unless they have a case against you for breaching the terms, rather than merely being seen as unprofitable.


    A couple of years ago, Purple Lounge started closing accounts, and it turned out the players were doing nothing wrong, nor breaching any terms. It was that they didn't play slots, but played games like All Aces VP with a wafer thin edge for the casino, and the casino decided that this edge was not making them enough money on these player accounts, so they were banned.

    It's a poor business decision as it sends out the message "winners get banned" to those players that ARE profitable, and they then feel that if they did nothing more than finally have that run of luck that allowed them to join the ranks of the big winners that casino's brag about as part of their marketing, they also run the risk of finding themselves thrown out and unable to play at many casinos. This can make players feel that winning in itself is viewed as a "breach of the spirit of play" even if not against any terms, and will think "why bother, I will never be allowed to win". Much of the lure of gambling is the expectation that you will lose most of the time, but that a possibilty exists that you will be one of the lucky ones who win a sizeable amount, and that this will be celebrated and accepted by both players and casinos, giving you the choice to play for more - which is how casinos eventually get the money back from big winners.

    The suggestion that a skilled player can make a long term profit, which scares casinos into banning such players, leads to the impression that so called "systems" DO work in some cases, because the casinos are scared of them. This then leads to suspicions about the games being rigged, rather than random, since the ONLY way a betting system can work on a game with a natural house edge is by beating this edge by playing to a pattern; something that is mathematically impossible in a random game, but perfectly possible in any "rigged" or "compensated" game.

    Land casinos are scared of Blackjack card counters because the system DOES work mathematically because cards are discarded, and if this is allowed for, the probabilities for card values in future draws can be predicted from counting the discarded values, and this can lead to hands that have a probable RTP of over 100% if bet correctly. Such systems cannot work online since each new hand starts from a fresh virtual deck, and nothing can be predicted from the cards that were used in previous hands.
     
  22. Feb 15, 2012
  23. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    Thanks VWM and others...

    I think VWM has typed almost all the permutations and opinions I have had on my mind.:thumbsup:

    I have contacted 'Cobus' as recommended, and he has e-mailed back to say he is looking into the matter.
    These messages are obviously private now and it would be disingenuous to post them here; I shall simply post the outcome with minimum detail for discretion.

    I haven't played anywhere since this matter, as I have lost confidence now as it seems this 'negativity' (as the second-last poster said) could be spread around all sites even if unrelated to BelleRock or gaming matters which I find worrying.

    I can assure you all the details I supplied and financials are accurate, and the same details have been supplied to my Fortune Lounge a/c's and verified (unlike BelleRock they asked for docs on Vegas Palms when I made a sizeable profit for a 50 stake and were happy with them.) I played my FL accounts exactly the same way as my BR accounts and never had an issue, winning on a few and losing on one.

    Yes, I am disciplined; we all know how hard it is to cashout when on a good run but I have made myself do it. This new year I was faced with some big outlays (800 on car, needing new PC and laptop plus about a grand of other committments out of the ordinary) and my winnings have now paid and cleared all this expenditure because I've learned at last what the 'collect' button is for :D I started off with a hundred of xmas money and opened one a/c, profited and collected and figured that if I carried on playing the site would soon return to percentage and I'd be down so started afresh at a new one and so-on, always cashing out (bonus allowing) when ahead etc.

    I can see how this may be seen as 'negative' but they are in business to take my cash and I want to take theirs and it doesn't break any rules.

    Anyway, thanks for your opinions ladies and gentlemen, will update when appropriate.
     
    3 people like this.
  24. Feb 15, 2012
  25. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Good luck, and I look forward to hearing the outcome.
     
  26. Feb 15, 2012
  27. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    update

    Well, I've just been phoned by an almost unintelligible Indian? woman ( it took me a minute to even realize she was trying to say my name) and apparently, after several repeats, I understood that if I supply my docs the accounts would be reopened. I was promised an e-mail to reply to, which I received.
    Unfortunately, both the address it came from and the one quoted in the e-mail bounce my replies/attachments. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

    I will try sending them to Cobus, because I'm losing patience now with the whole business.

    The woman said I could supply them through my account, to which I explained I'm locked out d'oh!
     
  28. Feb 15, 2012
  29. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    Cobus is listed on the rep page as 'Senior Account Manager' now so maybe that's changed...?
     
  30. Feb 15, 2012
  31. Realitybitez

    Realitybitez Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Cati Interviewer
    Location:
    New Zealand
    This scenerio would annoy the crap out of me if after all that rigamore, they just wanted id documents. Why didnt they just say that in the beginning:confused: Understandable if its for a big cash out, but why are they being so cautious when its only for $50:what:

    I'd send them, receive the money I was entitled to and then close my account

    I have no patience for casinos that give me the run around. Too many other great casinos out there, for one to brood about any one particular casino:eek2:

    Get what your'll entitled to and then move on;)

    Something just occurred to me. If you have dealt with them abit, maybe they are thinking you are not the person who the account belongs to? That you could be someone who has hacked into the casino account and is using it, therefore the need for ID documents. Just wondering, have you played the casino elsewhere?

    As in not on your pc but at another location away from your home? I've heard that can cause problems:cool:
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Feb 16, 2012
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I now think it is down to his careful and disciplined play, moving on having won from one skin because in the long term the RTP will settle back to favour the house. Flawed argument, but BelleRock seem to believe his strategy is actually working, and have projected that the OP will continue to play in this disciplined manner with relatively small deposits, along with strict discipline in cashing out.

    I also suspect the offer of reopening accounts if documentation is provided is merely a PR exercise now that this issue has become public, and their reasoning and vague grounds for expulsion are being greeted with a "WTF:confused:" attitude from the wider player community. The accounts may well be reopened, but will be permanently bonus banned, and set to the 10 day pending period reserved for plastic weather men and German players:rolleyes:

    As said, if this was about needing documents, this ROUTINE procedure would have been enacted before the FIRST withdrawal was paid. Fortune Lounge are happy with this playing style, so play there some more. 32Red shouldn't have an issue with this, although will expect a mixture of play both with and without bonuses in order for invitations to be extended for future promotions. They also pay much faster than BelleRock.
     
    2 people like this.
  34. Feb 16, 2012
  35. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    Well I've been mailed to say docs received OK but heard nothing since. Same ones I had ready after supplying them to FL.
    Still not had the w/d. I have not played on any other PC than the one the software is (was) installed on. I intend to do what was mentioned above, complete w/d and not play there again, close all skins/properties down. This, truth be told, would probably be what suits both me and BR. Plenty of other pubs to have a pint in.....
    I have been (as were some neighbours, a victim of hacking via wireless - piggybacking I believe it's called) but this was well before I played BR. At the time cards were stopped for security, so if registered on other old unused a/cs outside BR, these would have been flagged presumably as dead.

    Anyway, still waiting to hear from Cobus/BR. It's a shame as hitherto they were fairly quick-paying and reliable, but then so are FL.

    I have just re-downloaded GC casino, and I can log in again. I checked my w/d and it has been 'processed' on 14 Feb. I haven't received it yet, and usually when processed status shows it's in my account in 48 hours. I assume it'll be there tomorrow, I'll let people know. Kudos to Cobus and repondents to my thread, things seemingly OK now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  36. Feb 17, 2012
  37. BustedFlush

    BustedFlush Account suspended until further notice

    Occupation:
    Driver
    Location:
    Midlands
    All sorted thanks everyone!

    Although I got no communication after sending docs, I re-downloaded and all was OK I could login again, received the 50 cashout in bank today.
    I got my rewards for the stress - deposited 51 and cashed out over 400 in total on Thunderstruck 2 - thanks GC.
    At least I know THIS w/d will be OK now they have docs verified :lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:

    Anyway thanks Cobus and all those who replied here. I'll call this resolved now.

    I had a great day on TS2: see my screenshots posted in the TS2 screenshots thread!
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Feb 17, 2012
  39. PegeeSue

    PegeeSue Full Member

    Occupation:
    Finance Officer/Administrator
    Location:
    Canada
    Nice to see that everything worked out for you.

    My mom on the other hand has never been paid from Gaming Club and it's been almost 2 years. She deposited and won $700 (which is like a million to her considering she's on a pension). After about a week she never heard anything back so asked me to send them an email (mom's 76 yrs old and doesn't even know how to use a keyboard..lol).

    After a few days she got an email back saying that she had multiple accts???...she has only been doing the online casino thing for a while and I know for a fact she definately does not have multiple accts. Anyways, we sent in all verification docs but no response back. Long story short, we have sent probably 8 emails to them and not one single response from them. We asked for proof of the multiple accts but we were talking to thin air.

    Mom doesn't know how to work live chat so she asked me to go on and talk to them which I did and was told that they never received the docs which is a lie because I used the read receipt and got the verification that is was opened. CS told me to email them again while she was online with me and after a couple seconds she said that she received them and would forward them to Finance. After a couple more minutes she said that all was in order and she would be paid.

    She never got the $700 or her deposit back. She just got tired of chasing shadows as she never got any responses and this was in the span of about 3 months. Funny thing though, she was never banned/blocked or her account was never locked and to this day, she can still log in.
     

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