nikantw

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Actually it would be quite straightforward to reverse engineer a math model if the full or partial test results were public. Think about it - you'd have the game's pay-tables and RTP published by right and then you could pretty accurately work out the parse sheets and reel mapping from the pay frequencies listed above. It looks to us maybe like the partial pieces of a puzzle, but to the maths people in a development team pretty easy pickings.

You even have examples like 2Winpower reverse-engineering numerous Novo and Playtechs based just on pulling a few million results from the RNG and unravelling the code to produce some pretty accurate copies. Obviously that's a criminal enterprise and legitimate developers will have a code of conduct and trademarks/patents to protect them so wouldn't attempt it anyway. But yes, it's perfectly feasible.

Even on here you've got enough info just gleaned from RNG-tapping to reproduce the MG IR/TS2 games quite easily! (Search kktmd posts)

Think of that pay spread info from JFTW as a 'slot Sudoku puzzle'. :thumbsup:

Yes, I agree, it is easy for them to copy most games. Even easyer to get the frequency of a 1000x win. It may save them like 3 min of work to see it posted. :p
But most players need it and cant get it.
 

Lemon

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You said thiis again.
Sorry, like many others I am not convinced by any of it.
A few odds is not "the math" and if you don't want to know don't look for it.
You might not think so, but things like feature hit rates and percentage contributions would be very useful to certain people. But fuck the game companies eh? Let's make them give all their secrets away just so you can turn round and applaud them for being 'fair'.
 

brianmon

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Actually it would be quite straightforward to reverse engineer a math model if the full or partial test results were public. Think about it - you'd have the game's pay-tables and RTP published by right and then you could pretty accurately work out the parse sheets and reel mapping from the pay frequencies listed above. It looks to us maybe like the partial pieces of a puzzle, but to the maths people in a development team pretty easy pickings.
:thumbsup:

Except they aren't giving the hit frequency of specific wins or symbols/
If they'd listed the hit frequency of each of the paytable entries, then fair enough

But they're stating the frequency of wins within a certain multiplier ranges... 15x-30x, 30x-60x and 60x-90x
Those wins could be made up of many different symbol combinations, they could be base-game or the base-game sidewinder feature or the free spins.
especially as it's a 243-1125 ways game
 

brianmon

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You might not think so, but things like feature hit rates and percentage contributions would be very useful to certain people. But fuck the game companies eh? Let's make them give all their secrets away just so you can turn round and applaud them for being 'fair'.
Those kind of figures are usually includes in the games' commercial data sheets, which all casinos have access to. So it wouldn't be too difficult for a competitor to get hold of it
 

Lemon

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Those kind of figures are usually includes in the games' commercial data sheets, which all casinos have access to. So it wouldn't be too difficult for a competitor to get hold of it
I understand that certain info is distributed for marketing purposes and so on and that's fine, but the idea of a developer being required to publish what they may regard as sensitive info for all to see is a touch fanciful in my opinion. You could understand them not wanting to, and it wouldn't be for nefarious reasons.
 

nikantw

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You might not think so, but things like feature hit rates and percentage contributions would be very useful to certain people. But fuck the game companies eh? Let's make them give all their secrets away just so you can turn round and applaud them for being 'fair'.

No need for that. Nothing like it. Actually the point is they have nothing to fear. The other companies already have the hit frequency, or can easily get it.
Only the players don't.
 

dunover

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Except they aren't giving the hit frequency of specific wins or symbols/
If they'd listed the hit frequency of each of the paytable entries, then fair enough

But they're stating the frequency of wins within a certain multiplier ranges... 15x-30x, 30x-60x and 60x-90x
Those wins could be made up of many different symbol combinations, they could be base-game or the base-game sidewinder feature or the free spins.
especially as it's a 243-1125 ways game

And that is enough information as those wins can be only obtained with certain symbols and combinations. All you need to do is totalize their averages as listed to a level stake, note the RTP and work out the overall win frequency with a few hundred spins. Then you'll work out the smaller wins and their RTP contributions, then work backwards from there. As I said, it's a form of slot maths Sudoku. You can already see by the base game that only just over 18.1% of the total pays are composed of base game wins (17.43% of the RTP) and from that you can partly deduce the constituent wins from the pay tables which would make the majority of those small wins. Put it this way, try getting a developer to impart this info when the game is under construction! Maybe Trancemonkey will tell you if he sees this thread.
 

lockinlove

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I know if I show the average person that chart, they would never play slots. No way slot providers want people seeing that. Sure you get your players playing for entertainment only but lets be realistic. Most players deposit in hopes to win big. They see those returns and they are like...ohhhh hell nahhh
 

Reelsoffun

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Base 17.43%
side feature 50.66%
main feature / free spins 27.93%
TOTAL 96.02%

From recent games I know about and have seen par sheets for I would say thats a typical set of figures of a lot of games of this type or ones that have random features like the blueprints etc

Which is why they play so awful if you don't hit a feature and the random features are not triggering.

These games all boil down to if your hitting the feature above the designed average and or the extra random features then your most likely gonna be in profit for the session, if you dont your gonna have a rough session very quickly.


With a game like bonanza it could just as easily be

Base 68.09%
Free spins 27.91%
TOTAL 96.0%

and although I have not played it enough to even come close to an accurate guess, I doubt its gonna be that far from that, I would be very surprised if they were more than +/- 5% from those figures esp with what people have been saying about wagering, its ability to keep your balance etc Any hard core bonanza players out there that would like to know how easy it is to track those two figures feel free to PM me.
 

nikantw

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People play lottery like crazy, don't they know the odds?
People play scratch cards like crazy and those have all odds on the back side or on the internet.
We gamble, we take risks. It is only fair we can find the chance of success if we want to. Most people know nothing or very little about gambling anyway, even if they do gamble.
The truth is almost nobody will read them but everybody will trust the industry a bit more.
Companies have nothing to fear (but something to gain) and I hope JFTW will prove that. :)
 

dunover

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Reelsoffun is nearly there with Bonanza, it's 71-25% base-feature split. The 24bn spins testing example is not shocking at all unless taken out of context. It's simply indicative of a low-medium variance slot and is exactly what you'd expect, with 1000x + hits being extremely rare, relying on all the planets lining up and the shade temperature outside your house being 22.3c when you hit it - you get the picture.

I can see why developers won't put this info out like JFTW have - look what's happened here, people have immediately focussed on the stand-out 1100-odd x hit and the number of spins in testing and gone off at a tangent labelling it some kind of rip-off when in fact the figures are perfectly acceptable for a 96% low-medium volatility game.
 

slotmaster

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Aye, Just asking in general terms if this was done before it started and if any providers even signed up. It was an interesting topic and idea. Actually has anyone seen dunover lately? :)
 

Supababe

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Aye, Just asking in general terms if this was done before it started and if any providers even signed up. It was an interesting topic and idea. Actually has anyone seen dunover lately? :)

Agreed!

Also curiosities like...
How many CM members were locked in Dunover’s vault?

Or
How can providers be confident that selection of participants was unbiased and fairly measured using the selection criteria across the forum members?

Or
Many more interesting questions that I won’t ask as they sound harsh typed.....
 
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KasinoKing

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I highly doubt it has so few combinations, even my very basic 5 reel slots have 33 million minimum and a lot have just shy of 2 billion reel stops.
@KasinoKing , I know you were part of the reel mapping back in the day, before I joined the forum. I think it was Zooie (?) that did a Thunderstruck emulator?
Thunderstruck has 30 x 30 x 30 x 30 x 44 combinations = 36,640,000
Because there are 9 win-lines and only 1 wild per reel, the chances of getting the jackpot are 1/9 of that = 1 in 3,960,000
(I guess that's the figure you were thinking of).

I did the reel mapping (MANUALLY by just looking at the reels) - someone else (Zoozie?) did the emulator.
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Of course, Thunderstruck is what I call a "Reely Random" slot; i.e. The reels have a fixed strip of symbols and each symbol has the exact same chance of landing on line 1 - both in the base game & free-spins.
Most other modern slots work in completely different ways, which I am not even going to pretend to understand.

KK
 
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dunover

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crikey! I forgot about this thread so may as well update it.

I did select a list of time-served members here who demonstrate enough knowledge of slots etc.

We have done a few jobs to date, obviously I cannot divulge them on here in public for the reasons stated earlier in the thread.

The testers were selected so I had a range of nationalities and ages plus a proportion of each gender.

There are many good members who weren't asked, simply because we have a massive demographic bias here in favour of male players, UK and in the 35-55 age group.

The developers often request directing test games towards certain markets, or a spread of them and may ask for certain age groups or gender to be favoured.

The irony is, those developers that you perceive to need advice most tend to be the large ones and least likely to use us!

Rest assured, there are a couple of games you may very well have played recently that did have changes made upon our collective recommendations and advice. :thumbsup:
 

goatwack

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crikey! I forgot about this thread so may as well update it.

I did select a list of time-served members here who demonstrate enough knowledge of slots etc.

We have done a few jobs to date, obviously I cannot divulge them on here in public for the reasons stated earlier in the thread.

The testers were selected so I had a range of nationalities and ages plus a proportion of each gender.

There are many good members who weren't asked, simply because we have a massive demographic bias here in favour of male players, UK and in the 35-55 age group.

The developers often request directing test games towards certain markets, or a spread of them and may ask for certain age groups or gender to be favoured.

The irony is, those developers that you perceive to need advice most tend to be the large ones and least likely to use us!

Rest assured, there are a couple of games you may very well have played recently that did have changes made upon our collective recommendations and advice. :thumbsup:

Each gender? I hope you haven't excluded the 74 others when deliberating :mad:
 
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