Games with 'par' odds

Wisenheimer

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Hello everybody on this forum! I would like to inquire about another marvel in the online casino world! I.e. games wherein the house odds do NOT outweigh the player's - no matter how they're called. So far I have encountered already two sites offering casino games of this kind - BetFair.com and BetVoyager.com. But I can't quite understand where the catch is. With BetFair it all seems quite straight forward, simply put just another way of promoting their platform, as they have not more than four of them, sharing not all too favorable rules as their obvious downside. With BetVoyager though I don't get it. All of their normal games have an 'equal odds' counterpart as they call it. Naturally, the first that came to my mind was that their software was probably tweaked affecting the game process. But the presence of a random number control feature (that I've tried to master for a week or so) kind a makes their promise of guaranteed randomness watertight. So then I figured that the games might not be on par odds AT ALL, but later, comparing them the normal version of Roulette for example, was convinced me of the opposite. The inevitable question rises: What's in it for the casino?! Because, if their players would really stand on equal odds with the house, it sure would mean we're dealing with one heck of an awesome casino, right?!!)
 

KasinoKing

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It's a good question! :thumbsup:

I would say BetVoyager's profits rely on 3 main factors:-
1. Some players may not realise that some of their zero house edge games are not actually zero edge.
e.g. I had a look at their roulette and only certain bets are zero edge. Any bets played on splits still carry a 2.70% H.A., unlike BetFair who's roulette has no zero. (I didn't look to see if something similar applies to other games).
Features of European Roulette without House Edge
A bet on a number (straight up) pays out 36:1, rather than 35:1.
If the ball lands on zero when the player has bet on even chances, a dozen or a column, the game ends in a draw and the player’s bet is returned to him.
There is no house edge in this game when the player bets on a number, a dozen, a column or on even chances.

2. To be honest, many gamblers don't know when to stop. Even with zero-edge games I would not be surprised if most of their customers carry on playing until they lose everything. I mean, there's not really much difference between regular blackjack with say 0.5% edge and one with 0%.

3. Players trying to 'break the bank' by martingaling for example, are still going to come up against table limits and the casino's 'infinite' bankroll. Again, they are just as likely to bust out whether the game is 5% H.A. or 0%.

It's a very interesting concept though and I would imagine, a successful one... for the casino!
 

SlotMonster

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I would say BetVoyager's profits rely on 3 main factors:-

I would like to add 4th and 5th factor.
5. Honesty. I always got paid by BetVoyager, no matter which sum they must have paid to me.
6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.
i. Create the sequence. You will be given the SHA256-hash for this sequence which contain numbers (for Roulette) and server code word (to prevent cheating).
ii. Play.
iii. After you play, get initial text information, copy it in "Checksum" field, and press "Calculate checksum" button. If you'll receive the same checksum as you was given, it means that you played the same numbers and the casino hasn't cheated you. Also see atachment.
 

KasinoKing

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I would like to add 4th and 5th factor.
5. Honesty. I always got paid by BetVoyager, no matter which sum they must have paid to me.
6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.
That's all well & good, but what has that got to do with the OP's question :confused: :-
The inevitable question rises: What's in it for the casino?!
 

SlotMonster

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Well, I'm not a part of BV's management, so I cannot why exactly they've offered this feature. As skilled gambler I can say that it's no matter if you play with "no house edge" or without, because it ("no house edge" feature) makes sence only if you do flatbetting - at least you will lose less money. For betting strategies it's useless. So I may consider entering "No House Edge" just as promotion, to give a player little more advantage. But you know - the house always win. And "No House Edge" is just allow us play a bit longer. It's my opinion.
 
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GrandMaster

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6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.
i. Create the sequence. You will be given the SHA256-hash for this sequence which contain numbers (for Roulette) and server code word (to prevent cheating).
ii. Play.
iii. After you play, get initial text information, copy it in "Checksum" field, and press "Calculate checksum" button. If you'll receive the same checksum as you was given, it means that you played the same numbers and the casino hasn't cheated you. Also see atachment.
This only proves that the casino did not change the previously determined outcome in response to your bets or in response to your playing decisions in games of strategy such as blackjack or in video poker.

It does not prove that the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent.
 

SlotMonster

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This only proves that the casino did not change the previously determined outcome in response to your bets or in response to your playing decisions in games of strategy such as blackjack or in video poker.

It does not prove that the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent.

Very good point, GrandMaster, and I agree with you. And let me say a bit more...
As for me, I think it's better to say not "Randomness Control", but "Invariability Control". And yes, it doesn't prove the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent. BUT! You can easily probe it yourself. All you have to do is to generate as many sequences as you want (it will take few minutes to receive the data about 1000's spins on roulette - just break the sequence without playing and only take the numbers), and then analyze the data you have just received. I think it will help you. And it's much easier than if you should have played these numbers and only after this you would be able to analyze.
 

Grey

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So I may consider entering "No House Edge" just as promotion, to give a player little more advantage. But you know - the house always win. And "No House Edge" is just allow us play a bit longer. It's my opinion.
Maybe, you are right and No house edge is a only promotion, but I would like to note one thing: the payouts for No house edge games higher than at the games without this advantage.
For example, at Betfair's Zero Blackjack "Suited Natural Blackjack" pays 2:1 and at Betvoyager's European Blackjack blackjack with an Ace-King of spades pays 7:1, instead of the standard payout of 3:2 for a blackjack.
I understand, that it is possible to feel this advantage only at not short and correct game.
But all the same, It's better.
 

SlotMonster

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I understand, that it is possible to feel this advantage only at not short and correct game.
But all the same, It's better.

I think the same things :)
 

happygobrokey

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also, are we on #7, how did this not get mentioned?

7. some games require proper strategy to be working at 0%. if you don't make the right move every turn, you are giving the house an edge over you. for example, betfair's five card 21 must make exactly 21, not the 5-under-21 "charlie", so the decision when to hit for that must be played properly. this factor especially makes a composition-dependent strategy more necessary.

-->i won't advertise, so remove the next x and visit aka23's site @ xwww.beatingbonuses.com i think he has every optimum strategy card for every casino you could think of, including betfair's zero-bj. he's good people.

also, they offer no-zero roulette because you can easily lose your ass at roulette and the zero only hits once or twice if there was one, so they'll still get your money, just a couple spins later. and if you have a winning session, then having a zero wouldn't have crushed you anyway. they can afford to give it to you basically.

8. unless it was mentioned, there might be a minimum bet limit as well to keep you from grinding an even money game at a buck a throw. not really an issue if you can deposit enough to have like 20 or more bets in your stack.

have fun! :thumbsup:
 

james01

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Bottom line is that it only works to your advantage if you know when to stop.

You can still lose your shirt even playing with no house edge.
 

bryand

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Bottom line is that it only works to your advantage if you know when to stop.

You can still lose your shirt even playing with no house edge.

I'm missing something in my understanding of how payout percentages are computed. Is it not possible for 1 million people to play at a 100% payout game yet all 1 million lose (i.e. quit when they're behind)? Or, over the life of a 95% payout slot machine, is 95% of the take actually paid out (in hand) to players?
 

Jufo

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Betfair Zero blackjack

I don't have positive things to say about Betfair Zero blackjack. I have never lost so much on any blackjack as I have lost in this zero blackjack, even though I have played this game much less than any other blackjack with a house edge.

In the last session I had only 78% return over 400 hands played and statistically the probability for such or worse result is around 1:10000. It would be interesting to know how much Betfair actually profits from this game.

Also, I don't like the way to make Blackjack games no-house edge by giving a bonus payout for some rare hand. A real no-house edge Blackjack has such rules that the game pays out 100% naturally. And there used to be such a game: Boss Media single deck blackjack with 100.15% return. Unfortunately this 0.15% player edge was enough for players to start hammering this game for profit and eventually no Boss Media casinos could afford to offer it anymore.

I'm missing something in my understanding of how payout percentages are computed. Is it not possible for 1 million people to play at a 100% payout game yet all 1 million lose (i.e. quit when they're behind)? Or, over the life of a 95% payout slot machine, is 95% of the take actually paid out (in hand) to players?

If the game pays out 100% then it pays out 100% independent of whether most people lose. Because those who don't lose, win the same amount the other lost. So I don't think it is possible for a 100% return game to give casino any profit even if most players continue to play until they lose it all. That is why casinos should show the figures they have made from these zero house edge games. If they show any profit over long period of time, then the game can't be completely random and 0% house edge, period.
In case of Blackjack, incorrect playing strategies can explain a small net profit for the casino.
 

happygobrokey

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i think kk mentioned already, that the casino has infinite bank and can play against you forever. they will always take the other side of your bet all day long. they can afford to keep putting their money against yours until you're broke.

although their game pays 100%, there is going to come a time during play where you are down enough units that you have to stop. the casino affords to keep you around until this time (hoping you aren't one of those types to leave with a modest win should you happen to get the better of variance).

the game won't pay each player always 100%. it pays a player over his lifetime roughly 100%, and pays all players generally at 100%. and you're just as likely to get "freak hands" as to be continually getting sequential winning streaks, ie is it easier to win two hands in a row at even money than it is to get dealt a suited bj? finally, i also remember aka23 saying one of the games does truly result with optimum strategy in a slight house DIS-advantage.

ok, one more thing, on a feelings level, i do agree 5-card-21-on-the-nose is lame, but suited bj and 5-cards-under in other games are fun to have in play, especially when they pay 2:1. those rules still give you more return. if they come less often than average, you won't benefit, but if they appear any more frequently than they should, then you clean up!

it's all about how you feel playing the game. i love pontoon! it has about .35% house edge, but natural bj's (and usually split cards creating 21's) pay 2:1, and 5-card-tricks 2:1, double any time and draw after double, the strat table's easy to learn. the catch is that dealer wins ties, shows no upcard and you must hit to 15+ every time. way fun though and easily when you catch a good streak you can be up 10-15 bets in one-two minutes. you can also bust 10 bets without a winning hand, but that's the risk you take. so sweet though when you have a 4-card soft total double/hit and rake in the cash, barring a dealer 5-carder. love it!

:thumbsup:
 

SlotsWizard

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Another thing working in the casino's favor is the horrendously slow gameplay, at least in demo mode (my country cannot sign up at BetVoyager). I can't be sure if the regular and/or real money games play that slow, but if so, it would take a very long time to grind out a profit on their Jacks or Better (0.0051% player advantage) or Joker Poker (0.0169% player advantage) video poker games.
 

happygobrokey

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maybe you could multitable somehow? heheh :thumbsup:
 

Jufo

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i think kk mentioned already, that the casino has infinite bank and can play against you forever. they will always take the other side of your bet all day long. they can afford to keep putting their money against yours until you're broke.

Yep, it is true for single player that going broke is the most likely outcome, if the target when you stop playing is high. But it still stands that for every 10 losing players there is one player who wins 10 times their deposit in a game with 100% return. No-house-edge games are easy to analyze: If you put 100$ in such a game, then there is exactly 10% chance that you will walk away with 1000$ and 90% chance that you lose your 100$. The casino cannot make any profit out of no-house edge games since the game returns all stakes back across ALL players in the long run.

you're just as likely to get "freak hands" as to be continually getting sequential winning streaks, ie is it easier to win two hands in a row at even money than it is to get dealt a suited bj?

The probability to win a hand in BJ is around 43.6% (depending on rules) so two wins in a row is 0.436^2 = 19%. I think the probability for suited bj is only about 1.1% (4.5% of all hands are blackjacks and roughly 1/4 of them are suited).

it's all about how you feel playing the game. i love pontoon! it has about .35% house edge, but natural bj's (and usually split cards creating 21's) pay 2:1, and 5-card-tricks 2:1, double any time and draw after double, the strat table's easy to learn. the catch is that dealer wins ties, shows no upcard and you must hit to 15+ every time. way fun though and easily when you catch a good streak you can be up 10-15 bets in one-two minutes. you can also bust 10 bets without a winning hand, but that's the risk you take. so sweet though when you have a 4-card soft total double/hit and rake in the cash, barring a dealer 5-carder. love it!

Yes Pontoon is much more fun to play than Blackjack (they say that Pontoon is an early version of blackjack).
My best Pontoon hand: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/winner-screenshots.4193/
 

happygobrokey

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The probability to win a hand in BJ is around 43.6% (depending on rules) so two wins in a row is 0.436^2 = 19%. I think the probability for suited bj is only about 1.1% (4.5% of all hands are blackjacks and roughly 1/4 of them are suited).

i'll concede the maths on that, but i was going for you get random cards every time so the freak hands will come when they come, with more or less than the mean frequency over a short time, just as the play outside these freak hands will be fair too, so it's still worth your while.

nice screenie :thumbsup:
 

bryand

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If the game pays out 100% then it pays out 100% independent of whether most people lose. Because those who don't lose, win the same amount the other lost. So I don't think it is possible for a 100% return game to give casino any profit even if most players continue to play until they lose it all. That is why casinos should show the figures they have made from these zero house edge games. If they show any profit over long period of time, then the game can't be completely random and 0% house edge, period.
In case of Blackjack, incorrect playing strategies can explain a small net profit for the casino.

This implies that if, for example 1 million BJ players deposit and play at 100% payout, at least 1 player cannot ever lose. Somehow there is a net difference between credits won and cash paid out in hand. I'm just not bright enough to figure it out.
 

Jufo

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This implies that if, for example 1 million BJ players deposit and play at 100% payout, at least 1 player cannot ever lose. Somehow there is a net difference between credits won and cash paid out in hand. I'm just not bright enough to figure it out.

If 1 million BJ players play until they lose or win 1 million times their deposit, then on average one of them succeeds and all others fail. But I would think that most players withdraw before reaching a balance of one million times their deposit :rolleyes:
 

hedges

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one in a million

yeah, i think i'd stop somewhere around 500k... seriously, though, it's easy to forget that the whole no house edge thing doesn't mean that you're going to not lose any money. i learned that when i lost a bundle taking the odds on the pass line, even though it's the 'best bet in vegas'. still, all things being equal, i figure no house edge is a good bet, even if in reality it only means increasing your odds by a percent or two.

as for slot wizard's comment, i've never had any connection trouble on bet voyager in either the demo or the real deal. too bad you can't access it.
 

james01

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yeah, i think i'd stop somewhere around 500k... seriously, though, it's easy to forget that the whole no house edge thing doesn't mean that you're going to not lose any money. i learned that when i lost a bundle taking the odds on the pass line, even though it's the 'best bet in vegas'. still, all things being equal, i figure no house edge is a good bet, even if in reality it only means increasing your odds by a percent or two.

as for slot wizard's comment, i've never had any connection trouble on bet voyager in either the demo or the real deal. too bad you can't access it.

yeah - I get that. House edge is just a number though. It's still all random.
 

SlotMonster

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I was able to access the demo mode, and there were no connection problems. The gameplay was just very, very slow is all.

Simply click "Settings" button in game window and set game speed to max. value (see attachment). "Auto" button also vey helpful (for slots):thumbsup:
Hope it will help you.
 

Grey

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This only proves that the casino did not change the previously determined outcome in response to your bets or in response to your playing decisions in games of strategy such as blackjack or in video poker.

It does not prove that the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent.

I thought the same too before I have not looked their video about Randomness control.
They offer the shift for the correction of the 'planned' number and opportunity of cutting the desk and reordering the cards.
 
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