Game providers have a reason to rig slots

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Slottery

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How can it be random for the users but not the industry?

Guess that industry have enough variance to reach TRTP, players often might have discrepancies when compare actual RTP to theoretical one.

That's also one reason why there's no really need for industry to make conspiracies and complicated systems where all providers are included and made together to recognize players and give wins for some particular instead of just randomly to someone which would make more sense. Would be huge amount of work, most probably would have got busted about these violations and still not a single dime more income than letting games run like they are decided...

Still haven't seen single person here provided gameplay histories which could show these facts that slots are rigged and programmed to take some people money in particular, these are easy to get from casinos when asking all game transactions and then show that spreadsheet in any format it shows all these mystical things which are for now only happening in people heads until somebody could bother few minutes to compile some data together (most of casinos provide these as spreadsheet so there's no need for almost anything, just share it anonymously as google doc).

Also wonder this same statement what's coming from Bloatie all the time that X amount of sessions end up to be losing ones, how many sessions from 10 you would expect to be winning and how high you need to get your balance before you hit withdraw? Right away when it's even little bit above deposits or need to get deposit grow multiple times?

These machines still tell you clearly that you are expected to lose your money and get less back than you put in. If somebody really thinks these as investment or way to make money, would really recommend to think again. Even kids math can tell you that ROI in any slots is horrible and player must be really stupid if expecting to win from these really often.

If losing more than it's fun anymore, why don't you just use games as playmoney version? You get exactly same slot experience than with real money and don't have to spend so much time to find some conspiracies which then nobody bother to show even it would be really easy few minute task to get these examples and whole community could see with own eyes that something is so wrong than some posts state here.

For RG point of view, when fun stops.... maybe should stop playing with real money in total. Don't really understand how in earth anyone keep depositing all the time more when been sure about rigged games for so long time, would there be some better use for that money? If willing to spend this much to something you are sure is rigged, why not even bother to show it to people? I know it's boring when facts blame good conspiracies but these would really nice to see when it's so easy to show them.
 

trancemonkey

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Don’t ask a question where you know the answer

Variance across users is clearly always going to happen. And, yes over a large number of users, the variance for the casino is limited, but this is just purely statistical and nothing to do with "rigged" or "dodgy" stuff going on...
 

Bloatgoat

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Please all, don't try this method posted at the top if this rant. It will likely lose you all your money very quickly and sounds more like the behaviour of an addict than anything else.

Lol Ok. Whatever Trancemonkey.

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Interesting case.

Questioning the value of Betsoft's RNG audit
Betsoft claims that the random number generator used for its games is tested and audited by a Malta based organisation Quinel M Ltd. Its last published RNG certificate (attached to the bottom of this article) is dated February 2015. However the possibility of either nefarious intent or programmatic incompetence cannot be ruled out by this certificate. In simple terms, a game asks for a random number from the RNG, then maps that number to a result - a four symbol win or a losing spin for example. There is nothing stopping either a buggy or crooked game from ignoring the generated number and asking for a new one if it doesn't like the result, so for an audit to be effective it must test the simulated results of an actual game, not just the numbers generated by a RNG. On this point we found section P of the Quinel RNG report to be quite salient:

P) Additional information (RGR Part VI, 26.i) The RNG subject to testing (test item J14120011 - I001) was tested independently without any game connected; no integrations between RNG and games were tested.

So there you have it: this audit does not test the "end to end" interaction between Betsoft's games and the RNG to ensure that the results that a player actually sees are truly random. The RNG can be a correctly programmed piece of logic that always returns a random number, but this says nothing about the fairness of the operation of the games that use the RNG. The audit is practically worthless.

So it is quite possible, to have a game comply within the RNG and all that, but give the player a complete different result then what you might expect. Perhaps this might explain the variance and difference in between different casino's, one being more violent in relation of taking your money then the other.
 

trancemonkey

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Lol Ok. Whatever Trancemonkey.

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Interesting case.



So it is quite possible, to have a game comply within the RNG and all that, but give the player a complete different result then what you might expect. Perhaps this might explain the variance and difference in between different casino's, one being more violent in relation of taking your money then the other.
Do you have a link to that report, looks interesting...

That said, all RNGs are tested independently of any client or game in order to be verified. The game test is entirely different, but what SHOULD happen in testing is that you pass a danger the same RNG outcome and the results should always be the same... if they are not, then something dodgy is indeed happening

And the conclusion at the end is not correct anyway... the RNG must be certified separately because the RNG is a separate piece of software. The game asks the RNG for a random number which is then used to generate the result....
 
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Bloatgoat

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Link was in the post, but i think you found it already looking by your edit. Well appearantly it's possible. And perhaps this might explain why i'm sometimes facing a far more difficult game in general while they all advertise with an avg of 96.x% of RTP. Could it be? Are there casino's in Malta that could apply this and still get away with it legally?

I love genuine randomness! Shit thats out of the blue.
hitttt.jpg
 
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cncas2123

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Link was in the post, but i think you found it already looking by your edit. Well appearantly it's possible. And perhaps this might explain why i'm sometimes facing a far more difficult game in general while they all advertise with an avg of 96.x% of RTP. Could it be? Are there casino's in Malta that could apply this and still get away with it legally?

I love genuine randomness! Shit thats out of the blue.
View attachment 138927
So this is the acceptable side of randomness?
It seems to me that you only want to have a randomness that lets you win on every spin rather than real randomness which can give you 2 winning spins in a row or 10 losing spins in a row.
Remember when you are playing a slot the house will always win, otherwise all casinos would be out of business.
 

Halvor

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So this is the acceptable side of randomness?
It seems to me that you only want to have a randomness that lets you win on every spin rather than real randomness which can give you 2 winning spins in a row or 10 losing spins in a row.
Remember when you are playing a slot the house will always win, otherwise all casinos would be out of business.
I enjoyed it more when he could predict the outcome of extra chilli.
 

Bloatgoat

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I never wrote, 'predict' but it was a certain that after a 5 to 7 failed buys the next one would come back with a even higher, initial investment into the buying in the first place. So repeating that for 3 straight days my friend, gave me a 65k withdrawl.

So no matter how you bring it, if it was my illusion, if it was a genuine bug, or if something else fall from the sky, i managed to obtain 65k out of it! Something you'll proberly never get even close to loolll.
 

Slottery

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So this is the acceptable side of randomness?
It seems to me that you only want to have a randomness that lets you win on every spin rather than real randomness which can give you 2 winning spins in a row or 10 losing spins in a row.
Remember when you are playing a slot the house will always win, otherwise all casinos would be out of business.

And that's so clearly stated everywhere that you should always expect to lose your money and nothing else as chance for winning is smaller than losing. Some people still repeat these same things that every X of X session is ending up to loss, what is surprise in there and how it come be surprise if playing slots for while?

Made quite long post in this thread bit earlier and have also repeated many times how much of these rigged things and patterns could be easily shown from gameplay history which can do show what actually happen.

Still all the time just own feeling feels best proof to post to forum instead of something what could be actually analyzed and shown to be true.

It's really hard to take seriously anyone who keep saying that should win from slots more often when that have every single time less chance than losing.

Conspiracy theories are cool and these can be done about almost everything but these rigged/compensated/notrandom etc... patterns can be so easily shown to all to make it some actual statement instead of repeating same story all over. I know that many people go bit crazy from slots and have really weird believings about tactics and what to do to win but would be cool to see these actually shown instead of making vague statements which have happened in one person head. It have same value of information than good old "icecream eating increase drowning deaths" and that's even packed with some actual numbers (yes, there is the correlation that when is hot summer weather more people drown and also more icecream is sold) , not like these rigged stories.
 

Bloatgoat

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its just that, if your used to playing landbased, you kind of can expect either to play even or get ahead at some point. The thing with online is, the volatility is just so beserk and out of this world, that it can eat session after session after session. And because of your losing streak, you start to doubt your deposits, your type of play, your approach to your betting behaviour, you name it. Keep that going on for like a pretty good while and for some people lots of financial losses are into play, it's a toxic pool to be in really.

And having a winning day, like where every slot no matter what bet or strategy, is just winning all over the place, fuels this even more if you know what i mean. No wonder people spawn up rigged threads. If the providers feel like doing it because of profit loss due to corona, they could easily adjust RTP's to make even. Thats just how 'generous' these people are. They take yours and others money in just the run of a mouseclick.
 

trancemonkey

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Link was in the post, but i think you found it already looking by your edit. Well appearantly it's possible. And perhaps this might explain why i'm sometimes facing a far more difficult game in general while they all advertise with an avg of 96.x% of RTP. Could it be? Are there casino's in Malta that could apply this and still get away with it legally?

I love genuine randomness! Shit thats out of the blue.
View attachment 138927
There is no link in the post, I just read your quote again
 

cncas2123

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its just that, if your used to playing landbased, you kind of can expect either to play even or get ahead at some point.
But why would you expect this when you are playing something that you know has the odds in the house favour? How can you expect to be ahead unless the slot is set at over 100% RTP?
And in regard to the £65K Chilli win, how many time’s did it work? How many times have you made that much since on it? How much have you given back from the 65K?
 

Borgie

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[QUOTE="cncas2123, post:
And in regard to the £65K Chilli win, how many time’s did it work? How many times have you made that much since on it? How much have you given back from the 65K?
[/QUOTE]

Yes i am interested in this too. Is he saying that they have changed it so he cant win ?
 

Halvor

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So no matter how you bring it, if it was my illusion, if it was a genuine bug, or if something else fall from the sky, i managed to obtain 65k out of it! Something you'll proberly never get even close to loolll.
Most likely not, because I will never hammen on at high stakes. If my goal was big profits I would invest, not bloody gamble.

With that said, neither will I spend hours of my life just a few months later complaining about losing 200 euro in a session.

But go on, keep telling us how fantastic you are at highrolling.
 

neon claws

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So I guess this is the new weekly rigged games thread?

An observation I had the other night that I wouldn't dare post a thread about because you invariably sound like a nutjob and sore loser to boot is that quite often after a big win you get a few little "aftershocks" - so you'll be hammering away happily losing for hundreds of spins with barely a 2x pay to be seen, and then you get a big 200x pay, great! But the strange part is how often you seem to get a few 25x pays in the next few spins.

The reptilian conspiracy part of my brain says it must be because the win was "due" and it's now paying out your big win, plus some change.

The logical part of my brain says "funny how overactive pattern recognition works".
 

trancemonkey

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Thanks.. didn't show as a link on my phone.
So now I have read the whole thing, the excerpt you copied and pasted in no way proves or even semi-proves anything. It is nothing more than guess work from people who don't know how games work or how testing and RNGs work.

Now, did BetSoft or the casino cock up with regards to the jackpot prize - possibly yes. However, all the claims and statements made after that are pure bullshit guesswork designed to inflame.

The RNG is tested independently to the game. It has to be certified separately and undergoes very rigorous testing (feel free to look at the freel available technical standards for information on what is required). The game then uses this RNG to determine its results, and when the game is tested, and issue with the RNG (if it was tampered with) would likely become apparent. Also, the RNG is a protected module, so if it were changed, the checksum would change and it would be obvious to any test house that this had been done.

So before you start throwing wild claims around, why don't you do some simple research and actually get the facts, rather than some fake news (damn I can't believe I said that!) that you have found on the internet and posit as true.
 

trancemonkey

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So I guess this is the new weekly rigged games thread?

An observation I had the other night that I wouldn't dare post a thread about because you invariably sound like a nutjob and sore loser to boot is that quite often after a big win you get a few little "aftershocks" - so you'll be hammering away happily losing for hundreds of spins with barely a 2x pay to be seen, and then you get a big 200x pay, great! But the strange part is how often you seem to get a few 25x pays in the next few spins.

The reptilian conspiracy part of my brain says it must be because the win was "due" and it's now paying out your big win, plus some change.

The logical part of my brain says "funny how overactive pattern recognition works".
The logical part of your brain is good :)
 

neon claws

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The logical part of your brain is good :)

I assume the old "ask me anything" thread is closed so I'll ask here:

Do these testing houses take into account accumulator wastage?

Eg; the Vikings go berzerk slot has 4 very slow to fill accumulators, now, a million spins from a single user with these will likely pay the trtp, but a thousand spins each from a thousand users? There's no way the vast majority of people will stop playing exactly after all four accumulators pay out simultaneously so the percentage of the wager dedicated to going into them is bound to be wasted.

Therefore you would expect the actual real life RTP of this slot (and indeed any slot with an accumulator function, especially multi-accumulators) to be well below advertised trtp.

Or do they somehow account for this in testing?
 

Bloatgoat

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[QUOTE="cncas2123, post:
And in regard to the £65K Chilli win, how many time’s did it work? How many times have you made that much since on it? How much have you given back from the 65K?

Yes i am interested in this too. Is he saying that they have changed it so he cant win ?
[/QUOTE]

Trust me, ive set a large portion aside for myself. And i bought a car with it. No worry's. As for repeating the obvious; no, it did'nt work that good aftwards again. And i suspect that that casino is running some sort of gimped version of it, it has the same bet limitation of up to 10 euro rather then the full 40 euro on extra chilli, and the difficulty into the gambling wheel is like 3x worse compared to two other casino's i play at. To give you an example, it's very rare to hit the 20 and actually win or even the 24 now. And ive tried quite a few times since then. Lately they have bin changing all sorts of games in relation of maximum bet size.

They say it's to protect their customers, but yet allow the in house games with bets up to 250 euro a spin. Who are they kidding here. The profits on the in house game(s) are much more for them since there's no licensing fee's involved. It's just to cover their liability. I remember previous year someone won 90k with DOA. They paid out accordingly, they have that repuration tho. But after that the max bet was gimped again. And it's difficult to even land something "Good" on that game now using level 4 betsize compared to a level 2 betsize.

I'm sure they can play and fiddle around with RTP's, constant give you a base game win, in the numbering have it up to 96% and still make you lose your complete deposit, get where i'm going?

To give you an idea of my gambling habbits: twice a week on avg. I spend on avg 200 to 500 euro a week. Usually within 3 weeks i hit a deposit that covers just enough of that what i put in. Sometimes i do crazy, i go high limit, or i attempt to chase a DOA wildline on a high bet. It frustrates me that it can hang you on a leach lurking your budget away for weeks really.

But i play long enough to know, it is'nt really as we're presented. Random within parameters.
 

trancemonkey

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I assume the old "ask me anything" thread is closed so I'll ask here:

Do these testing houses take into account accumulator wastage?

Eg; the Vikings go berzerk slot has 4 very slow to fill accumulators, now, a million spins from a single user with these will likely pay the trtp, but a thousand spins each from a thousand users? There's no way the vast majority of people will stop playing exactly after all four accumulators pay out simultaneously so the percentage of the wager dedicated to going into them is bound to be wasted.

Therefore you would expect the actual real life RTP of this slot (and indeed any slot with an accumulator function, especially multi-accumulators) to be well below advertised trtp.

Or do they somehow account for this in testing?

The old thread is closed but there is a new one :)

And no, sadly they don't - which is why i don't like long term persistence games. You're right that unless you play a very long time, you have no hope of getting to the total RTP...
 

neon claws

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The old thread is closed but there is a new one :)

And no, sadly they don't - which is why i don't like long term persistence games. You're right that unless you play a very long time, you have no hope of getting to the total RTP...

So, what you're saying is.. they're RIGGED?????????

J/k
 

Siohmy

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I like to think of myself as a fairly opened minded person. Generally I will not rule out any ideas that things may not be as they seem although burden of proof is on the accuser.

I'd actually say the bigger problem which is driving the, must be rigged, narrative is the abundance of shockingly designed slots over the last few years. You are always going to become more frustrated when faced with an ever increasing wave of slots which will eat 100x of your session money in 15 minutes. With larger, longer and more costly losing streaks the temptation to look to more dubious reasons is high.

Unfortunately it's a simple case that casinos found a nice cheap way of advertising through streamers and
the subsequent desire to show bigger and bigger wins overtook almost any desire to produce playable games. As a result unless you are very selective about your games you will get burnt over and over and over again to the point you can often go into a session just hoping to hit a bonus to slow the inevitable drain on your funds. The HTML switch has also provided a good excuse to dump many older, much more playable games or bring them back in almost unplayable format. I had a go on Ruby Slippers the other day and not only did the slippers bonus give me a previously very rare zero pay, it still gave me a 2x multiplier!!?? 2 times zero, yeah great. So clearly the manufacturers don't want you to go back to proper medium volatility slots.

This, rather than the theories often put forward is likely the real issue. As trancemonkey has said on numerous occasions, why would a reputable (not dodgy Russian sites) put their entire business at risk when the maths will earn them the money in the long run. The number of casinos lowering their RTP actually bears this out as this is the way to increase their revenue as it is perfectly legal.

I think the online, and the slot industry as a whole, is in trouble if I'm honest. Unless you are a hopeless addict there is really not much enticing about putting hours and quite a bit of money just grinding out for a rare bonus which despite "see I told you it had potential" will often spit 10-20x at you. Yes you want to win but, my god, even if a slot threw 1000x at me (a laughably "modest" win these days apparently) whilst doing F all for the other 11 months of the year I'd give up and I am very close to doing so, once you lose a customer it is bloody hard to get them back.

If you happen to be enticed by all the riches on offer, how long are you realistically going to stick around based on most of the common slots on offer these days. How many understand that the odds of even getting 1000x win are often in the hundreds of thousands to one?

Sorry for the rant and ramble. I haven't just lost the house or anything I can't afford even if it may sound like it. I just wanted to give my angle as to why people may often be reaching for the rigged argument rather than "slots, they're a bit sh1t these days aren't they?".

Finally for all those going through a rough patch, these figures are far from the worst but maybe will give you an idea of what to expect. Kept 4 months records for interest purposes, so also played more than I usually would to get a semblance of meaningful info.

22,564 spins at an average of 64p across a wide range of slots (admittedly quite a bit of BTG), lost on average 9p per spin so overall just under 86% RTP. Total loss £1,932.17. Biggest win in run: 273x.
 
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