Fuming!!!! Redbet locked account midplay!

I would say photo ID from a government's pov is more to do with prevention of underage gambling or residents from a blocked country, as well all know photo ID unless it's notarized and the person in the picture has been seen and verified by the casino, is next to useless, it proves nothing.

My false passport I use for getting free trips anywhere in the world, visit breathtakingly scenic places, meet beautiful people, historical architecture, and bomb the fck out of them :eek2:.....


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The rules that the casinos always claim they have to abide by to prevent money laundering. They claim these rules are out of their hands, imposed by international agreement. Odd then that they DON'T properly comply with them when it suits them, but they are a good excuse to screw over the players whilst blaming someone else for it, a bunch of faceless international lawmakers.

If these laws really DID exist, the UK government would also be in trouble for non compliance in not introducing a national ID card scheme that suited these rules.

It is really a case of the casinos' lawyers making it up. KYC does NOT necessarily require photo ID, it is simply a loose framework that any business has to show best efforts have been made to comply, but within the limitations of what is possible.

No way can it be fair to impose an impossible requirement on a consumer, and the OFT agrees. There are dozens of companies that thought they could get away with it, and dozens of companies getting caught out and fined. It's not just casinos, they are all at it, scamming the customer whenever lax rules and regulations present an opportunity. The biggest household names in the UK have been involved, and not all have yet been caught. There are no businesses that can really be trusted, and UK consumers are absolutely fed up with the repeated scandals that they have suffered, and which keep on emerging.

The banks used to try the same BS, refusing to accept anything but photo ID. They got a bollocking from the regulator, and were forced to admit that the whole thing was really designed to screen out low value customers unlikely to do anything other than use their current accounts to store money and pay the bills. They trod on the wrong toes, the DWP who were trying to move towards direct payment of pensions and benefits, but found this being held up by banks not playing ball and allowing many benefit claimants to open accounts. This is how the basic bank account was born, and the banks were told to either play ball, or have the scheme forced upon them. The banks backed down rather than have anything forced on them, and so we have basic bank accounts.

We can also get rid of this "must have photo ID even if the government doesn't operate such a scheme" bullshit if enough pressure is applied. The issue only affects a small number of countries, but it is about big business telling governments how to govern, not something that should be deemed acceptable, even though many people know it goes on behind the scenes.

I have often seen threads where players have asked the casino about ID requirements, and they have been brushed off with an "we'll let you know when the time comes", sometimes followed immediately by pressure to hurry up and make that first deposit. It seems casinos are not willing to tell players that they can never be paid through having the wrong documents until the player has already played and managed to make a first withdrawal.

It's nothing to with it being impossible to pre verify players, it's a "can't be arsed" attitude from casinos. However, it is sometimes truly impossible for UK players to provide photo ID, not just a case of "can't be arsed".

People from elsewhere just can't see the problem because for them this isn't a problem as they already have a national ID card, and one that they have found casinos always accept.

For the UK government, this shouldn't be a problem, but with online gambling becoming mainstream, it may be an issue that cannot be ignored as only affecting a niche hobby community for much longer.

How about some BIG print warnings to players about this, not just having something squirreled away in the smallprint about withdrawal procedures, and what "may" be required in vague terms. Players need SPECIFICS, such as naming which documents "will" be requested before paying a withdrawal. A vague "some form of government issued ID" is what I see in many casinos' guidance on the matter. I also see "drivers license" named specifically, but then casinos reject many UK driving licenses simply because they were issued many years ago and are a paper format.

You're missing the point.

Some of what you say may have merit, but it is NOT a big issue by any means. The number of people affected is TINY and in my experience a way has almost always been found to get a player verified and paid.

It's not a "can't be arsed" attitude from the casinos at all....they have to take SOME measures to protect their business from the hoardes of fraudsters on the net. If a UK player with no photo ID cannot follow the simple steps I outlined above, which will prevent ALL cases of ID verification problems at cashout, then they CAN'T be arsed. It's that simple.

As for putting it in large print.....well you could say that about almost ANY terms on the website. So, let's make all the important ones in LARGE letters and in RED.....well, they're pretty much ALL important in one way or another, so you will just end up with pages and pages of large print red terms which the same people who won't read the normal print won't read. In other words, it is pointless. I've lost count of how many terms one member or another has insisted should be "large print"...once you put more than one or two things in large print, you lose the intended effect. Not only that, some players will then accuse the casino of "hiding" the other terms because they are in "small" print compared to the others.

You stated yourself there are no legislated rules regarding KYC for online casinos, so I don't know what the whole "they're breaking the rules" claim was all about. You've totally contradicted yourself. It doesn't matter what reason an online casino gives for wanting photo ID...if it is in the terms and conditions that the player accepts at signup, and it doesn't contravene any laws (which it doesn't as you admit), then I don't see the problem. If they want a stool sample, then you either prepare yourself to send the sample, or you don't play there....or you contact them and see if salive or DNA will suffice. The point is that the whole scenario is avoidable, and is so rare that it does not warrant wholesale changes in KYC processes.

No. Sorry. It's just a non-issue, and, as usual, you will not concede any points, so there is no point continuing the debate from my end. I might be opinionated and forthright, but I always acknowledge when I'm proven wrong or incorrect and I take on board what most people say....because I'm not an expert on all things, and many members here know a lot more about a lot more than I do.
 
I would say photo ID from a government's pov is more to do with prevention of underage gambling or residents from a blocked country, as well all know photo ID unless it's notarized and the person in the picture has been seen and verified by the casino, is next to useless, it proves nothing.

My false passport I use for getting free trips anywhere in the world, visit breathtakingly scenic places, meet beautiful people, historical architecture, and bomb the fck out of them :eek2:.....

I'm disappointed you would post something like that (the obama conspiracy theory crap) and the comments in a thread that is not about CT's.
 
There will never be any one way to prove who you are online, period.

I've added cell phone file extensions so you can upload video of the casino you're logged into and turn it around and do a facial video too while playing.

Too bad you can't switch the video camera from front to back while recording without turning the phone around.

Might work offshore if you have other means of proving ID along with a video but for US player verification it's a good addition IMO.

Upload your DL, or ID card, proof of address etc. and a video showing yourself logged in playing at the casino, turn it around and a facial video too for comparison of other provided doc's.. :)
 
Who mentioned CT's?, it was a joke regarding false ID, and who allegedly is the most well known world wide owner of a *false passport*?.

Like I say, photo ID proves nothing.

Are you saying Obama's passport is a forgery?

Photo ID might not be the be all and end all of identity verification, but it's far better than a paper licence or other documents without a picture.

Most casinos require 3 forms of ID, one of which has to be photo ID, so the verification is not done on this one element alone.
 
Are you saying Obama's passport is a forgery?

Photo ID might not be the be all and end all of identity verification, but it's far better than a paper licence or other documents without a picture.

Most casinos require 3 forms of ID, one of which has to be photo ID, so the verification is not done on this one element alone.

Who says one must be photo ID? It could easily be the documents underlying the provision of photo ID in those countries that issue it. These documents are good enough to convince a government to issue a photo ID, so are good enough to verify someone's ID in the absence of photo ID. It IS a "can't be arsed" attitude from casinos. They expect the governments to subsidise their costs of doing business by spending taxpayers money on an ID card system. When casinos start paying tax in the UK rather than sneaking off to Malta to gain all the benefits of being able to access the UK market, they can have the moral high ground to ask the UK government to make life easier for them by introducing some kind of card under the PASS mark scheme that has consistency on a national basis in order to make verification more reliable. This, of course, is going to be happening in 2015, when the Malta loophole gets closed.
I am waiting to see how many casinos apply for a UK license, and how many simply ditch Malta and try to access the UK from a jurisdiction that makes them "untouchable".

What about the industry doing something about this themselves, using the likes of eCogra to bring forth what the UK government refuse to. They can then tailor the product to their needs, rather than having to put up with a format designed by goverrnment for a different type of ID verification.

Far from trying this, the industry seems to resist any attempts to bring a solution forward. They have shunned one well known enterprise even though said enterprise is on the verge of getting a contract for player verification in Nevada!

It seems that in common with other industries, they will only respond when a regulator with some teeth gets involved. It could be the OFT, or it could be the border control authorities introducing a crackdown on casinos using passports through requiring players to make a copy and send it.
 
This thread has taken more of my time than the overall issue it is addressing, both here and at previous casinos I've worked for.

That speaks volumes about the real size of the "problem".

Everyone is following legal guidelines. If they change everyone will change. Until then players should play where it is most convenient for them.
If some casinos make it more difficult than others then weigh up the pros and cons and make your choice.

It really is as simple as that.
 
Andy,

I havent followed this thread in depth but in the opening post it was stated the account was locked in the middle of a session due to a request for docs. This is poor action from the casino however we look at it. Either you request for docs before commencement of play or you ask after a session. Its very provocative of the casino to interrupt play and ask for docs.
 
This thread has taken more of my time than the overall issue it is addressing, both here and at previous casinos I've worked for.

That speaks volumes about the real size of the "problem".

Everyone is following legal guidelines. If they change everyone will change. Until then players should play where it is most convenient for them.
If some casinos make it more difficult than others then weigh up the pros and cons and make your choice.

It really is as simple as that.

If so, then there would never be an "elsewhere" to play, nor pros and cons to weigh up. It is an almost impossible task for the player to weigh up pros and cons when in many cases they only find out about the issue AFTER they have played.

I don't believe the problem is that small, because a significant proportion of UK citizens don't have a photo ID. If it is small, then it means casinos ARE finding alternative means to verify players, yet refuse to admit it.

If it is down to external legal forces, then ALL casinos can do what some are doing right now.

It doesn't take more than ONE player to make this a very BIG problem, one that for example, hits a big progressive, and then in the full glare of publicity gets jerked around purely because they don't drive. It hasn't happened yet, and the odds of it happening are small, but not zero. A player who lost out on such a large win is not going to mumble and walk away because it is too much trouble to fight. Such an incident is guaranteed to make the mainstream media. This possibilty arises because players are not verified before they play.
 
The problem is small because the people in the UK who don't have photo ID can all get it if they ever really need it.

If anyone won a major progressive then they would get photo ID I'm sure.

We've also identified here that UK players without photo ID can find places to play without it.

No amount of speculating on theoretical situations is going to change the fact that this is not a big problem.



The only
If so, then there would never be an "elsewhere" to play, nor pros and cons to weigh up. It is an almost impossible task for the player to weigh up pros and cons when in many cases they only find out about the issue AFTER they have played.

I don't believe the problem is that small, because a significant proportion of UK citizens don't have a photo ID. If it is small, then it means casinos ARE finding alternative means to verify players, yet refuse to admit it.

If it is down to external legal forces, then ALL casinos can do what some are doing right now.

It doesn't take more than ONE player to make this a very BIG problem, one that for example, hits a big progressive, and then in the full glare of publicity gets jerked around purely because they don't drive. It hasn't happened yet, and the odds of it happening are small, but not zero. A player who lost out on such a large win is not going to mumble and walk away because it is too much trouble to fight. Such an incident is guaranteed to make the mainstream media. This possibilty arises because players are not verified before they play.
 
Andy,

I havent followed this thread in depth but in the opening post it was stated the account was locked in the middle of a session due to a request for docs. This is poor action from the casino however we look at it. Either you request for docs before commencement of play or you ask after a session. Its very provocative of the casino to interrupt play and ask for docs.

Hi Chuchu
Yes I agree and as soon as we identified it as a problem (the first time it happened) we fixed it. If you read through a little more you'll see that.

Cheers
Andy
 
I don't believe the problem is that small, because a significant proportion of UK citizens don't have a photo ID. If it is small, then it means casinos ARE finding alternative means to verify players, yet refuse to admit it.


Redbet (+ related Redbet brands) have about 400 000 registered customers/players. If it is such a huge problem as you indicate, how come we so very seldom actually hear players complaining about this?

I think you once again are creating problems that simply do not exist, based on assumptions and speculations as usual.
 
no i.d betvictor

After this thread I quickly decidded to go to a casino and ask about no I.D, Here is the quick chat we had, Sorry but had trouble uploading the pic,

You may have to save the pic and enlarge it

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If so, then there would never be an "elsewhere" to play, nor pros and cons to weigh up. It is an almost impossible task for the player to weigh up pros and cons when in many cases they only find out about the issue AFTER they have played.QUOTE]

The player always has the option to contact support prior to playing to see what documents will be required. If I did not have a valid photo ID and verification has been an issue in the past I would do this. I think in all the years I have been running casinos I have had less than 10 cases relating to UK players not being able to show sufficient ID, I would not consider this a major issue to be honest.

Ben
 
Who says one must be photo ID? It could easily be the documents underlying the provision of photo ID in those countries that issue it. These documents are good enough to convince a government to issue a photo ID, so are good enough to verify someone's ID in the absence of photo ID. It IS a "can't be arsed" attitude from casinos. They expect the governments to subsidise their costs of doing business by spending taxpayers money on an ID card system. When casinos start paying tax in the UK rather than sneaking off to Malta to gain all the benefits of being able to access the UK market, they can have the moral high ground to ask the UK government to make life easier for them by introducing some kind of card under the PASS mark scheme that has consistency on a national basis in order to make verification more reliable. This, of course, is going to be happening in 2015, when the Malta loophole gets closed.
I am waiting to see how many casinos apply for a UK license, and how many simply ditch Malta and try to access the UK from a jurisdiction that makes them "untouchable".

What about the industry doing something about this themselves, using the likes of eCogra to bring forth what the UK government refuse to. They can then tailor the product to their needs, rather than having to put up with a format designed by goverrnment for a different type of ID verification.

Far from trying this, the industry seems to resist any attempts to bring a solution forward. They have shunned one well known enterprise even though said enterprise is on the verge of getting a contract for player verification in Nevada!

It seems that in common with other industries, they will only respond when a regulator with some teeth gets involved. It could be the OFT, or it could be the border control authorities introducing a crackdown on casinos using passports through requiring players to make a copy and send it.

You're making stuff up again.

The CASINO says....that's who...and guess what...they are 100% entitled to do so, as its THEIR operation and its part of their terms and conditions. It doesn't matter a thimbleful of sh1t what the UK says, or rather what you say the UK says, given that you're a lawyer 'n all.

The industry is not going to spend money and resources making sure that a literal handful of UK players get to access their casinos....and neither should they have to.

Anyway, as usual you've always got a comeback that completely ignores anything else that others point out, so I'm sure you'll just continue beating the same drum ad nauseum.

Did you read what casinoben said? In several years he has seen less than TEN.

Its an absolute and total non-issue.
 
My apologies in the delay of my response, quite apart from the fact it's just taken me a week to read the thread and catch up. :D

I think this thread went slightly off track however, maybe the debate and concerns surrounding I.D requests etc deserves a thread of it's own for both players and casino reps to discuss current issues. It certainly appears to struck a cord with many people.

Anyway, I just wanted to say Andy was very quick to jump on this, and reinstated my account with a generous bonus. More importantly, my issue highlighted a flaw in their verification process although an i.d request mid play was actually rare, Andy fixed with immediate effect so this issue should never happen again.​

Just to clarify, I fully appreciate the need for I.D from casino's and have happily provided it as and when required in the past and will be happy to provide to Redbet amongst others in the future. This was not a case of my objection to i.d merely the situation surrounding the request.

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate the time you have taken to advise me. :notworthy
And thank you again to Andy for your very efficient service.
You could teach some other customer service agents a thing or two.
Thanks again.. :thumbsup:
 
You're making stuff up again.

no one is making any think up, were spiting feathers here, its ok for casino to take cash? and bar accound or no pay out, as in this thread weather man said, U.K I..D is easily can be fraud now days, seems to me they take cash and not pay out, as also this thread said, alot of people have got no photo I.D, but seems like this is what all the casino wants now days, I can get a fake pass port or drivers, and it be regestard,
I spoke to alot of of help on casino sites and n heret hick as two short palnks, not a clue whats going on,, I Doctord my details when they ask for I.D, Not that I try scaming any 1 as I am how I say I am, but its just another way for these rouges to keep your cash,
 
You're making stuff up again.

no one is making any think up, were spiting feathers here, its ok for casino to take cash? and bar accound or no pay out, as in this thread weather man said, U.K I..D is easily can be fraud now days, seems to me they take cash and not pay out, as also this thread said, alot of people have got no photo I.D, but seems like this is what all the casino wants now days, I can get a fake pass port or drivers, and it be regestard,
I spoke to alot of of help on casino sites and n heret hick as two short palnks, not a clue whats going on,, I Doctord my details when they ask for I.D, Not that I try scaming any 1 as I am how I say I am, but its just another way for these rouges to keep your cash,

This actually illustrates my point. ALL ID can be faked, so even if only 10 players are affected, it is an unneccessary "jobsworth" attitude for a company to take. It also shows that casinos are putting too much faith in their belief that photo ID is somehow more reliable than the documents that have been used in the UK for decades.

You essentially attempted to pass off a fake ID, but because it was a photo ID, you slipped under the radar. Had they been using the usual sets of documents, but dealing with things remotely by image transfer, they would be looking harder for anything that looked "iffy", and may well have caught you out.

The UK is unique in that for some people, getting FAKE ID with a photo is much easier than getting the genuine article. One might, for example, suffer from Diabetes, and there is NO WAY to get a drivers license except by going to the fakers, which some do just to be able to get into pubs and clubs, buy alcohol, etc. Often though, they just lie to DVLA, which is pretty easy to get away with as they don't automatically check medical records.

The fact that few players stumble into this issue does not mean there is no problem, it means that the private car is so popular that a very large proportion of the population want one, and so a large proportion of the population will end up with a driving license. There may be many more players who don't trip up because they have encountered this issue before, perhaps as underage teens trying to get into 18+ venues or buying 18+ goods. Introduction to the fake photo ID scene comes at an early age, and there are organised criminal networks prepared to feed the demand.

The UK government only sees this as an issue with the under 25s, as once older, you are accepted as old enough simply by looking at you, thus no more need for a photo ID, even for getting into betting shops and casinos. The problem for the over 25s is unique to online gambling, which itself has only been recognised in UK law since 2005.

Before an offhand dismissal of "this is not a problem", there needs to be a proper survey to determine the level of hidden problems that have somehow been coped with, not the headline dozen or so players affected.

So, by their own admission, Diabetes is not much of a problem for their UK players, even though a side effect of the condition is the loss of an acceptable form of ID for casinos, and would mean that post diagnosis, players would face having to give up online gambling or face the risk that they might not manage to get paid after a decent win.

Despite all the hardships suffered by the regular players over these issues, it seems that online fraud against the casinos has increased to epidemic proportions, and is easily sidestepping the tightenings seen in procedures.

The problem of player fraud seems small also, about the same number busted here per year as the number of UK players than can't produce enough ID. However, when the shoe is on the other foot, we are told that what appears to be a small problem is actually a very LARGE one, and growing fast, all down to the "hidden" cases.

So, who should UK players lobby, the industry or the government, when they encounter this issue themselves?
 
This actually illustrates my point. ALL ID can be faked, so even if only 10 players are affected, it is an unneccessary "jobsworth" attitude for a company to take. It also shows that casinos are putting too much faith in their belief that photo ID is somehow more reliable than the documents that have been used in the UK for decades.

You essentially attempted to pass off a fake ID, but because it was a photo ID, you slipped under the radar. Had they been using the usual sets of documents, but dealing with things remotely by image transfer, they would be looking harder for anything that looked "iffy", and may well have caught you out.

The UK is unique in that for some people, getting FAKE ID with a photo is much easier than getting the genuine article. One might, for example, suffer from Diabetes, and there is NO WAY to get a drivers license except by going to the fakers, which some do just to be able to get into pubs and clubs, buy alcohol, etc. Often though, they just lie to DVLA, which is pretty easy to get away with as they don't automatically check medical records.

The fact that few players stumble into this issue does not mean there is no problem, it means that the private car is so popular that a very large proportion of the population want one, and so a large proportion of the population will end up with a driving license. There may be many more players who don't trip up because they have encountered this issue before, perhaps as underage teens trying to get into 18+ venues or buying 18+ goods. Introduction to the fake photo ID scene comes at an early age, and there are organised criminal networks prepared to feed the demand.

The UK government only sees this as an issue with the under 25s, as once older, you are accepted as old enough simply by looking at you, thus no more need for a photo ID, even for getting into betting shops and casinos. The problem for the over 25s is unique to online gambling, which itself has only been recognised in UK law since 2005.

Before an offhand dismissal of "this is not a problem", there needs to be a proper survey to determine the level of hidden problems that have somehow been coped with, not the headline dozen or so players affected.

So, by their own admission, Diabetes is not much of a problem for their UK players, even though a side effect of the condition is the loss of an acceptable form of ID for casinos, and would mean that post diagnosis, players would face having to give up online gambling or face the risk that they might not manage to get paid after a decent win.

Despite all the hardships suffered by the regular players over these issues, it seems that online fraud against the casinos has increased to epidemic proportions, and is easily sidestepping the tightenings seen in procedures.

The problem of player fraud seems small also, about the same number busted here per year as the number of UK players than can't produce enough ID. However, when the shoe is on the other foot, we are told that what appears to be a small problem is actually a very LARGE one, and growing fast, all down to the "hidden" cases.

So, who should UK players lobby, the industry or the government, when they encounter this issue themselves?

Again....refuse to accept any other points.

Here's a clue as to how silly your comparison is:

1. Fraudsters cost casinos large amounts of money, and they are a scourge on the industry as they make everything a million times harder for honest players. Plus, of course, fraud is contrary to the casino terms and conditions, and in some case, even illegal. Hence, time and resources are spent on what is a major issue across the board.

2. UK players (about 10 in several years according to an industry person in his case) without photo ID do not present a clear and present danger to casino revenue, and pose no threat to honest players. Hence, there is no need for operators to spend time and resources finding ways for a tiny handful of people to play at their casino. The investment vs reward equation would be a loss for the operator. Also, it is not a RIGHT for anyone to play at a particular casino. Businesses can pick and choose with whom they do business, and if the customer/player cannot fulfil their obligations, then they are not bound to accept their custom.


How about asking Max to compare the number of fraud cases here with the number of times UK players have had winnings confiscated due to not having photo ID.

You see, in the vast majority of the tiny number of cases where photo ID cannot be provided, the operator works something out with the player and they are paid. It just takes a little longer, that's all.

So, that leaves a tiny percentage out of a tiny number that actually LOSE anything as a result of not having photo ID.

Your argument is becoming more and more ridiculous vinyl. Time to cut your losses IMO.

Conclusion = EXTREMELY tiny issue, that can be resolved in almost all cases.
 
video showing yourself logged in playing at the casino, turn it around and a facial video too for comparison of other provided doc's.. :)


I think this is definitely not enough as a video can be easily faked. What we need is not only for a player to turn around but also have two of his friends sit by the computer with IDs in their hands and respective proof of their addresses. Then they should turn around and at the same time while playing in a casino - do a facial shot of both the player and his friends. After that players friends can send HQ photos of them standing on the corner of the street that corresponds with their utility bills, while holding their photo IDs. Let's not forget that all of them have to supply notarized documents, but I guess that goes without saying.

Unfortunately since both photo ID and utility bill can be faked and players friends can in fact be hired shills - we will need way more additional security checks, before we can release safely release players winnings.
:lolup:
 

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