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free mode rigged?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by zman, Apr 30, 2005.

    Apr 30, 2005
  1. zman

    zman Dormant account

    Occupation:
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    Home
    Well i was down to a few cents in neteller so i though give free play a go on bet 365.

    Look what happened on the first spin.... :eek:

    Common, like that would happen in real mode...
     
  2. Apr 30, 2005
  3. zman

    zman Dormant account

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    Thats max payout.......

    Im at 19k pounds after about 50 spins.... :eek: :lolup:
     
  4. Apr 30, 2005
  5. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I wouldn't say rigged, but every place I've seen in play mode is much more loose than regular mode. I'm sure they do that to get your hopes up and deposit money....lol
     
  6. Apr 30, 2005
  7. zman

    zman Dormant account

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    yeah ehheeh :lolup:
     
  8. Apr 30, 2005
  9. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    It is either rigged or not. There is solid evidence that Netgaming's roulette was heavily rigged in favour of the player in play mode. I have not seen anything similar for any other software brand. A lot of "looseness" can be explained by people playing for high stakes with play money which they may not do with real money.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2005
  10. Apr 30, 2005
  11. Gluten

    Gluten Dormant account

    Occupation:
    My Job?
    Location:
    DK
    I agree, this is a tough one. I do think that sometimes there are some fishy things going on.
    Incidentally I saw this little tidbit on littlewoods casino (using the cryptologic engine) - one of the bits of information I have found how the casino software actually operates:

    1. How do you determine which cards are drawn (dice thrown, numbers selected, etc.) for the games?

    The most important part of an online casino is a specially designed program called the random number generator. This is the program that generates a sequence of numbers which correspond to various card types, dice throws, etc. A good random number generator will produce numbers that are:

    * evenly distributed and not correlated
    * unpredictable

    If a random number generator is evenly distributed and not correlated, each number will be hit approximately the same number of times after a large number of runs. If a random number generator is unpredictable, you will not be able to predict the next number in a series no matter how many previously generated numbers you have studied.

    In the Online mode of Littlewoods Casino, the random numbers are generated by our Unix gaming server while in Practice Mode they are generated using the standard Windows random number generator on your computer.

    2. What is the seed?

    The seed of a random number generator is the initial point from which a sequence of numbers start. To ensure that a sequence or numbers will not repeat itself if we restart the gaming server, the seed is calculated using as many external factors as possible (e.g. the time of day, system settings, network activity, and many more).

    3. How do you prove your random number generator is unbiased?

    The randomness of our random number generator is tested by comparing a very long sequence of generated numbers to various statistical distributions. If any of these tests are found to be outside theoretical limits, the random number generator is not used. The current version of the random number generator was tested (and is continually tested) using a sequence of 300,000,000 (three hundred million) numbers to verify its randomness.

    4. Can Littlewoodscasino.com benefit from a biased random number generator?

    Absolutely not. If our random number generator is biased in any way, players may be able to track it and use it to their advantage. Almost any casino game can be turned against the house if the numbers are biased. With such excellent communication tools as the Internet, expert players could discover the bias and spread the word which would bankrupt the casino. Therefore, it is in our best interest to make our random number generator as unbiased as possible.


    I especially pondered over this part:
    "In the Online mode of Littlewoods Casino, the random numbers are generated by our Unix gaming server while in Practice Mode they are generated using the standard Windows random number generator on your computer."

    What the consequences are for actual gameplay is, one can only speculate - me anyway, since I don't have the needed knowledge to have any useful insights into this matter. But I think we can conclude that since the RNG is being run on 2 different machines and in 2 entirly different enviroments it goes without saying that something just has to be different!
    Does this constitute riggedness? I don't know - maybe that is just a question of semantics but the way I see it is, that fun play has more to do with simulating/emulating the real casino instead of actually mirroring it. Again this may just be a matter of semantics...

    However, whatever the case may be. Fun play and real play is different (atleast for Littlewoods and maybe all other cryptologic casino engines).
    How (and maybe why) it is different remains to be answered by the software makers.
     
  12. May 1, 2005
  13. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    That won't make any noticeable difference for the player. Random numbers on regular PCs have to be generated by pseudo-random numerical methods. This is the same mechanism used by any computer game, as well as plenty of other things. Modern pseudo-random number generators are extremely effective. There are basically two key factors: firstly, each number in the range should be equally likely, and secondly, the period (the amount of time it will take before numbers start repeating) should be as long as possible.

    Commonly used pseudo-random number generators are very effective with regards to both of these factors, only repeating after trillions (actually more) of numbers have been generated. Even an exceptionally poor RNG would not cause the player to win more unless the player was aware of the RNG's defects and was able to exploit them (e.g., by reducing/increasing the bet).

    The server should use real random numbers, i.e. not generated by numerical means; this can only be done with external input, often the decay of radioactive material.

    But the way that the random numbers are generated is not as important as the way they are used. Both play and real modes should use them in exactly the same way giving the same chance of winning. If not, the casino cheats and should be avoided.
     
  14. May 2, 2005
  15. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    I think this information is out of date, new versions of Crypto software use the RNG on the server.

    It would have to be an extremely bad RNG on your PC for you to notice the difference. What might happen is that if you observe sufficiently many outcomes, you may be able to predict it. Even if it were a strong RNG, the casino must use its own RNG for real money play.
     
  16. May 2, 2005
  17. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Very simple answer!

    Crypto's can be played off-line. That is why they use your computers RNG in fun mode.

    Nothing sinister! :D
     

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