Forum Rule 4.4

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Roanan

Banned User - abusive flamming - misogynist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Location
Langley, BC...in Canada, eh?
Casinomeister forum rules:

4.4 - Linked Websites The linked pages must not advertise casinos listed in the rogue pit. If Casinomeister subsequently rogues a casino, a webmaster is not obligated to remove that casino but will seriously consider its positioning.


The discussion regarding webmasters promoting rogue casinos has come up a few times, most recently started by my 'attack' on Gamtrak. Our history, plus her personality, pretty much guaranteed the kind of hostility that was shown.


I do NOT wish this thread to be in that particular tone.


I wish this thread to be a polite reminder to members and webmasters that these casinos are in the rogue pit for a reason. Affiliates DO have a responsibility to ensure that their patrons are aware of a casino's credibility and must not advertise those that are known to be crooked.


Of the 'green' members who have logged in during the previous week, the following promote rogues:

casinobonusguy
Acerevenue: Silver Oak, Planet 7, Royal Ace

livefree247
Acerevenue: Silver Oak, Royal Ace

Pam7122
Acerevenue: Silver Oak, Planet 7, Royal Ace
Virtual Group: VIP Lounge

metaxa
Joyland

Chipeez
Joyland

zuga
Virtual Group/Netsurf: 123BingoOnline, BingoKnights
(although these bingo rooms are not listed in the rogue pit yet, I have proven that Netsurf is part of Virtual here)


Webmasters, please remove the offending casinos from your sites.

Thank you
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I think to be fair, a lot of people won't be aware that Acerevenue is tied to Virtual at this stage. Early days on that one.

I'd suggest a PM to the affilites in question suggesting they remove the offending casinos would be a better first step than just going out in public. A lot of affiliates run multiple sites, employ staffers or buy and sell off each other so in some instances it could be oversight, or remnants of old stuff.

I'd also stress that Casinomeisters list is subjective too. There are some occassions when opinions will differ on what constitutes a rogue which is witnessed by the number of players here that still go and deposit ast some of them. Note i said "some" LOL. Many are indisputable of course, but labeling - or suggesting - an affiliate is rogue may not always be a correct course of action.

I'd suggest PM them, give 'them a week to respond, then maybe do the second step if you don't feel you are getting through.
 

Roanan

Banned User - abusive flamming - misogynist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Location
Langley, BC...in Canada, eh?
I think to be fair, a lot of people won't be aware that Acerevenue is tied to Virtual at this stage. Early days on that one.

I'd suggest a PM to the affilites in question suggesting they remove the offending casinos would be a better first step than just going out in public. Give 'them a week maybe, then maybe do the second step if you don't feel you are getting through.

The tying of Acerevenue to Virtual may be new, but they've been in the rogue pit for a while now.

Plenty long enough for the majority of active members to know this.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Like they wouldnt know that Acerevenue has ties to Virtual. On what planet do they live? Out in the public directly I say.

Also not directly this rule, but something could be done to the constant boardspamming with useless comments pushing your links by some affiliates.
 

Roanan

Banned User - abusive flamming - misogynist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Location
Langley, BC...in Canada, eh?
Apparently some users seem to love rogues:

topboss

This 'affiliate who has been lurking at CM for the best part of 10 years' has entitled his index:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


yet I find these listed:

123BingoOnline
21nova
Bingo Knights
Casino Fortune
Class1
Cirrus
Cleopatras Palace
Club Player
Cool Cat
Giant Vegas
Golden Palace
Indio Casino
Joyland
Mapau Casino
Miami Beach
Palace Of Chance
Royal Dice
Sierra Star
Silver Sands


:eek::eek::eek:
 
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Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I do NOT wish this thread to be in that particular tone.
...
But it will be if you use this thread to point fingers at one another. :p

Like Simmo said, PMing members is the way to go on this. Sometimes webmasters have their reasons for promoting these properties. Simmo and I occasionally check out the linked webmaster sites via sigs and give heads up to webmasters who are violating the 4.4 policy. We don't get around to it as often as we should.
 

topboss

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Message to Roanan

Roanan , I saw the next attack you have done on me regarding the promoting of what you deem to be rogue sites, and quite frankly I want to know what the hell your problem is with me, because from the day I came onto this board you have gone out of your way to ruin my reputation with your vicious posts.

I acknowledged and accepted what you had to say about the Virtual Casino Group, and despite the lies you are posting - I gave my word that i was removing them and that is exactly what I am doing. In fact seeing that you seem to consider yourself as the self appointed watchdog of the Casino Meister forum - did you actually do a simple thing like pressing the refresh button when you landed on a page that previously had Cirrus Casino etc on it, and did you also notice that one half of Topboss Group is an old frontpage site and one half is a dreamweaver site. As you have only been in the industry for 2 years - you obviously have no clue what it is like trying to manage 120+ sites and convert each one of these sites overnight from one software to another one. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT!!

Therefore you WILL still find some of the Virtual Group on some of the old pages and hell yes, more than likely on the new pages too, because I am still getting to them. Despite what you might think - I have a business to run , I manage an office full of staff who have been given the instructions to remove these casinos and they will be removed - NOT because you say so, but because I say so, and if it takes me a couple of weeks to remove them, then so be it - who the hell are you to go around making the posts you are making about me. I can promise you, that you will most certainly not be in this industry longer than 4 years with your stinking attitude. Mark my words!!!

With regards to other casinos that you have added to your little sleuthing list - with respect to Casino Meister - not everybody agrees that all of the sites on the rogue list are true rogue - eg Golden palace as an example was rogued due to their dodgy advertising not because they don't pay players. It depends on exactly why they have been rogued and I will make my own decisions which casinos go on my sites and ONLY me - not you or anybody else for that matter.

Simmo and Casino Meister are quite right. Just because they are on the rogue list does not mean the members are not allowed to promote them, but must use their discretion. When I have done wrong I am the first to admit it and will remove casinos when deemed necessary.

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making further posts in an attempt to damage my reputation because you will find yourself with a Libel law suit on your hands before long.
 
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Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Roanan whilst I realise you rightly in my mind detest the Virtual Casino Group, sometimes it is prudent to not be so aggressive in your manner of posting, particularly as Casinomeister is actually a professional board. I can therefore understand why TopBoss has responded as she has.

I have known Heather for a number of years and I consider her a friend and hope one day to have the pleasure of meeting her in person. I agree with you that no webmaster should promote places such as the virtual group. However your very public attack on Topboss not just in this thread, but also her introduction thread and also on her visitors messages within her profile is uncool in my view.

As she has indicated, she is removing all traces of the virtual group from the network of sites she runs and that imo is a good thing. But I am also inclined to agree with her, that this is something that cannot be done at a flip of a switch, especially when you have the number of sites that Topboss operates. I myself have a handful of sites and it can take me days if not weeks to make sitewide changes. Ask Bryan or Simmo LOL

What I am getting at is, I don't like to see anyone being ganged up on to the extent that they feel they have to question their participation here on Casinomeister.

This forum and site is widely respected throughout the industry and in my view, the more players, webmasters and industry figures that post here, the better. Because it then gives us collectively the chance to get the message out as to what casinos are good and which casinos are bad. Thus educating all who frequent here.

The fact that topboss is in the process of removing the virtual group is a good thing, but by continually attacking her for promoting them, even though she is removing them from her properties is not exactly the right approach.

Your reasoning is good, but your approach and delivery is off the mark somewhat in my view. I am also not perfect, but what I will say is, sometimes the softly softly approach is the best policy.

I personally hope Topboss decides to continue to participate here. But please everyone, please tone the attacks down.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Tone the attacks down? I am absolutely dumbfounded by what I'm reading here. I actually had to go back and read the "in defense of Topboss" posts more than once, just to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding.

Does anyone remember the 24 page thread started by the affiliate manager for Gambling Wages? You know...the one where EVERYONE had a go at him, including myself? Here's a link to the thread in case you need to refresh your memories:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hello.31036/

And how about this 13 page thread, where Gamtrak was raked over the coals for promoting Virtual? Anyone remember that?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/convincing-webmasters-to-advertise-responsibly.35466/

And don't get me wrong...I'm not defending nor standing up for Gamtrak. I have zero love for the woman, and the feeling is mutual...but I'm trying to make a point here.

Here's a quote by Bryan towards webmasters who promote rogue shitholes. It was from the Grand Prive thread, but it really says it all:

Affiliate marketing is just that - it's marketing. I know this won't sit well with a lot of webmasters but it's your own damn fault for promoting a casino group that has been in and out of the rogue pit for years. What did you expect? An honest deal? C'mon - quit your whining and move on.

Affiliates that promote operations that are mismanaged, or have flaky operators should ask themselves this: why are these worthy of promotion? What did you expect?

I wonder if Topboss ever promoted Grand Prive and is now one of the webmasters who isn't "happy" with the settlement offer? Toss GP in the rogue pit, but promote Virtual? Yeah okay.

And let's not forget the thread where Daera was complaining how her stats drop at each month's end with Gambling Wages...poor thing. Besides Robwin, she was left pretty much alone...although Webz, you did seem to agree that promoting them is wrong, plain and simple.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/watch-my-stats-drop-gambling-wages.35393/

Here's a quote from AussieDave that really highlights the point I'm going to get to at the end of this post:

Hi all,

I'm slightly confused...

Cast your minds back three months, it was Gamtrak promoting Virtual Casino Group who effective brought the AU down before it opened.

In the following thread, another CM member is having a go at GamTrak over promoting VCG - Link Outdated / Removed

It's certainly not the first time people have had a go at Gamtrak for promoting casinos.

So I'm some what bemused as to why two different webmasters are being treated differently, when they are both actively promoting VCG Casinos.

IMO as long as Daera holds and open account with Gambling Wages and allows people to post links to these crap holes on her site(s), it's hypocritical to target GamTrak for doing the exact same thing.


Cheers

Dave

I'm somewhat "bemused" as well Dave. I can dig up a dozen quotes from Bryan himself, and many others on here...who not only question players, but affiliates who promote these crooks. Things like asking if they're brain dead, or what they've been smoking? And all rightfully so. It can't be stressed enough how bad these places are for the PLAYER, and sometimes people (players and affiliates) need to be smacked upside the head with a sledgehammer before they get it.

So..what I want to know is....where's the list of affiliates that it's "okay" to call out for promoting Virtual? And the list of those affiliates who are "hands off"? Because that's the way it's looking here. Roast, toast and flambe the Gambling Wages affiliate manager for 24 pages....and tar and feather Gamtrak for promoting Virtual Casinos. But Topboss/Heather? Oh no....it's hands off. Well, I'm sure she's a lovely person..I don't know her. And while I think it's commendable that she's decided to remove the Virtual properties from her website...what's with the kid gloves? And warnings to tone it down?

Please don't tell me there's a double standard in effect here? That it's only okay to call out and shame those who no one likes? If it's someone who's an "insider" or who has friends in higher places....it's shhhhhhh!!!

And before anyone replies, they may want to go back and read some of the posts in the links I posted...maybe even some of their own posts.

Just for future reference you understand...I wouldn't want to step on the wrong toes...geesh!

Oh...one last point. While I understand that the definition of rogue may be subjective, and open to interpretation...it's Virtual we're talking about here. Not opinions..but facts!! And lawsuits? Yeah okay Topboss...I'd be happy to provide you with my full name, address and phone number...sue away. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Here's an idea for those webmasters/affiliates who are OFFENDED by being called out because they don't mind sending players to shitholes like lambs to the slaughter. Don't put a link to your site in your sig or on your profile page. Problem solved!! I can't believe how pissed I am by this...if I had more time, I'd sit and go through every friggin link I could find in every webmaster's signature/profile page.
 

topboss

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Pinababy, Whilst I can understand where you are coming from, I cannot allow you to run down Dave merely for sticking up for me.
For the record, Dave and I have never met each other, we have the utmost respect for each other from a purely affiliate point of view and have both been in the industry for as long as I can remember - this is our only connection, so its not a case of "having friends in high places".

I think the point that Dave was trying to make is that the whole point is that I admitted that I was wrong to promote the Virtual Group and I agreed to remove their links from my sites, but despite this, Roanan is still pursuing me. If i had just totally ignored everything, and continued on my merry way and was not removing them, then I could totally understand your frustration, and whole heartedly agree with you regarding why stick up for one webmaster and not the other, but this situation is different because I have said I will remove them and I AM removing them.

if you look back to the original thread whereby I said i would remove them - and specifically said that it would take some time - why did Roanan then feel the need to continue bringing up the issue? Again, had i not made a post or said that I was not removing them, then by all means continue to make posts until I remove them or leave the board or whatever, but the whole point is that I acknowledged he was right and started removing them.

Your comment about giving me your address to sue you is uncalled for, because the fact is that Roanan has continued to try and destroy my reputation and as I am sure you and anybody else would - you would threaten him too, if he did the same to you.
 
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jas2587

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
FL
Pinababy, Whilst I can understand where you are coming from, I cannot allow you to run down Dave merely for sticking up for me.
For the record, Dave and I have never met each other, we have the utmost respect for each other from a purely affiliate point of view and have both been in the industry for as long as I can remember - this is our only connection, so its not a case of "having friends in high places".

I think the point that Dave was trying to make is that the whole point is that I admitted that I was wrong to promote the Virtual Group and I agreed to remove their links from my sites, but despite this, Roanan is still pursuing me. If i had just totally ignored everything, and continued on my merry way and was not removing them, then I could totally understand your frustration, and whole heartedly agree with you regarding why stick up for one webmaster and not the other, but this situation is different because I have said I will remove them and I AM removing them.

if you look back to the original thread whereby I said i would remove them - and specifically said that it would take some time - why did Roanan then feel the need to continue bringing up the issue? Again, had i not made a post or said that I was not removing them, then by all means continue to make posts until I remove them or leave the board or whatever, but the whole point is that I acknowledged he was right and started removing them.

Your comment about giving me your address to sue you is uncalled for, because the fact is that Roanan has continued to try and destroy my reputation and as I am sure you and anybody else would - you would threaten him too, if he did the same to you.

I think you need to reread what she posted in reference to Dave's words that was quoted she did not run Dave down she used his post as a reference to the double standard

by the way how long does it take to remove banners????

Cindy
 

topboss

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
I think you need to reread what she posted in reference to Dave's words that was quoted she did not run Dave down she used his post as a reference to the double standard

I was not referring to Aussie Dave. I was referring to Webzcas - his name is also Dave.

by the way how long does it take to remove banners????

On 120 sites? You tell me, but certainly more than the few days Roanan allocated. As I mentioned in a previous point - we are currently converting our sites from frontpage to dreamweaver. We can no longer publish any content on frontpage as our service provider removed the frontpage server extensions. Therefore to remove anything - we actually have to completely create the page from scratch in Dreamweaver. Its not just a simple case of removing the link and republishing. this is also why webmasters will come across other casinos on my sites that Roanan mentioned. a lot of these are still on old pages that we have not been able to convert yet, but as we do - we remove them.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I can't believe how pissed I am by this...if

LOL. I'd never have guessed Pina :D

I can see both sides, but irrespective of who it is talking to who about what, there are ways to convey a opinion and get a message over.

I don't see anything wrong with hauling affiliates or casinos over the coals for promoting properties that are recognised death traps at all, but I don't like to see confrontational posts because IMO they add nothing to a conversation or an argument that a level of diplomacy can't achieve better. I agree with Webz on that point, but I also agree with Pina on the signature point.

On topic (and the reason I think this thread is necessary and important): there is a certain irony that affiliates who promote casinos who shaft players are almost certainly being shafted by the same people too. The point needs to be driven home to affiliates that representing a casino who treats players is damaging to affiliate's business too, not just in reputation but in financial terms aswell. And it's easier for the casinos to hide stuff from affiliates so they'll probably never even realise it either :rolleyes:

The main problem with affiliate-dom is it's low barriers to entry and consequently attracts a lot of people who don't understand - or aren't prepared to learn about - best business practices. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of VERY savvy affiliates out there too, but one big Rev Share offer and a lot of them are all over it without actually thinking about just how a) that can be offered in the first place and b) what the casino is actually likely to add to the affiliate business.
 

zebedy

No!!!! Im Spartacus
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Location
Up a Tree
This might not sit well with some people but i thought i had to say it.
i believe there are different ways in dealing with different people.

Take gamtrak, with her FU attitude and lying to people she deserved everything she got and more.
WTF? That is not for you to ask or any of your friggen business TROUBLE MAKER so find someone else to harrass because I'm NOT the one got it? :thumbsup:
At least topboss did listen and did agree to remove the links, does that make it right that she promoted them in the first place HELL NO!! but when someone is willing to do the right thing i believe they should be given the benifit of the doubt,
BTW i dont know topboss from adam so i have nothing to gain by defending her,but say in a few weeks time if the links havent been removed then she deserves everything she gets, ill even supply the tar and feathers :D
Hi Jod5413
My apologies for taking so long to respond. It has been a hectic few days and I don't always go on the forums every day.
I appreciate your comments and take them in the light they are intended.
Since my first introductory post and the comments I received about the Virtual Group and the rollicking I got from Aussie Dave on a pm, I have had a good long think about it, and the bottom line is that I have to acknowledge and accept that whilst I personally may not be having problems nor receiving player complaints - it is obvious that there is still a big problem in the industry with this particular group and NO, I am not in this business to make money at all costs, and furthermore I would hate people to think that of me, so bottom line is that I am taking the advice of everyone and have started removing them from my sites.
please guys bear with me though - as i mentioned I have a lot of sites so it will take me some time, so if you still happen to see an odd one here or there on any of my sites, please just send me a pm and I will ensure it is removed.
slight derail
but take a recent news story,
a mother killed her daughter because she was terminally ill and had been suffering for 16 years plus the daughter also wanted to die. so the mother helps her to die.
a person walks down the street and randomnly shoots someone dead,
both are murder, do we treat both people the same.
hope you get my point
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Just to clarify...I wasn't attacking Webz/Dave. I actually have the utmost respect for the guy, and I think he knows that. I've always considered him one of the best webmasters out there. It just so happened that his post was the last one I read, and he was the one who used the phrase "tone it down".

I'm sorry, but double standards drive me nearly over the edge. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as the old saying goes.

I'm not going to start dragging out posts and quoting people, because that would be confrontational, without reason. But I do have to say that Topboss's INITIAL response to being questioned on her promotion of Virtual (in the Introductions Forum), was almost identical to the one that Gamtrak originally gave. That none of their players ever had problems. And I think the point has already been made that how could they possibly know? A majority of players, especially newbies, wouldn't have a clue what an affiliate is...much less whose tag they signed up under.

Heather/Topboss even admitted to knowing how bad their reputation was, and pulling them once...then giving them another chance when they blew sunshine up her ass about turning over a new leaf. Don't feel bad about that Topboss...they've used that line on everyone at one point or another. Perfect example is that 24 page thread re: the Gambling Wages Affiliate Manager that I posted earlier. Guess what? They're lying.

All that being said, I do take Zebedy's point as well. Gamtrak made it very easy to hate her without even trying...while Heather/Topboss does seem reasonable, and willing to at least discuss the issue. But there is still no excuse for double standards. Fair for one, fair for all.

Topboss...I do appreciate your post, and your clarification of how many sites you have. And the fact that you are converting them as well. I personally wouldn't expect it to be done overnight, and am thankful that you're doing it at all. Gamtrak removed hers as well...I believe once her media buy was over. So again, the cases are very similar.

You just have to understand, many of us players have been around this industry just as long as you have...but not as affiliates. Many of us know first hand just how rogue some of these places are. I think that all affiliates should be forced to come and read this forum thoroughly at least once a week, just to keep up on current player issues, changes in bonus terms, etc. Good casinos can go bad overnight (for players).

I saw in your profile that you listed the Grand Prive Casinos as the worst casino group. But on the other hand, you felt quite okay in sending players to Virtual. There you have it....another thing that will drive me over the edge. Grand Prive never treated players (on a whole) even half as bad as Virtual does on a daily basis. Why would you only blacklist a group of casinos that screwed over affiliates? Why not blacklist those who screw over players as well? You cannot expect players to have any sympathy for you, when that's the mindset you have. I hope you get the point I'm trying to make?

In any event, I don't want to harp on it...you've said you'll remove them, and that's a super outcome IMO. Thank you for listening, and for keeping an open mind. I know that Roanan isn't the epitome of diplomacy, but I think that Virtual may be his Achilles Heel, as they are many players', including mine. Please keep that in mind before you judge too harshly. And Roanan...maybe we can give the lady some time to do what she says she will do before we send her to be drawn and quartered. It's not like she's going anywhere.
 

topboss

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Thanks Pinababy and I do understand what you are saying and accept it.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but just to mention about your comments about Grand Prive. You will notice that on none of my sites do I have a list of Rogue Casinos - including Grand Prive, for the simple reason that I always felt that I wasn't even prepared to give them negative publicity. i.e Didn't even want their names linked to mine.
i did used to promote Grand prive and did pull them at the time everything started, and No, they never owed me any money because I never managed to convert a single player there.
The reason I am so anti them is because they are based in South Africa, and I despise the fact that they are making all of the South Africans look bad with what they are doing.
I even had a meeting with them in October last year to try and sort out some of the problems - even though there was nothing in it for me as they didn't owe me anything and I no longer promoted them, but nevertheless I still tried, and at the time they assured me they would clean up their act and approach J Todd to sort things out, but they did absolutely nothing, and I pretty much realized that I had wasted about 2 hours of my time while they just sat and blew smoke up my ass but had no intention of doing anything about it. Below is the post I made on the GPWA about it at the time. Just in case you are bored and want something else to read instead of my moans and groans ;)
24th-October-2009, 10:05 PM
topboss Online
Private Member Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,155
Thanks: 175
Thanked 130 Times in 71 Posts

Topboss had a meeting with Grand Prive this week

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have sat on this for a few days before having the courage to post it as I know the old story about shooting the messenger, and of course we all know how we feel about Grand Prive, so before you read my post - it is important for everyone to know that this does not mean that myself or any of our employees at Topboss condone what Grand Prive did, nor does this mean that they have cleared their name with us, they are still blacklisted, but as a GPWA member I owe it to all of you to tell you exactly what was discussed. Please note that I will not get into a discussion about this and I am not a representative of theirs in anyway. I am merely telling everyone what they said to us, and I will not give my own personal opinion!!!
I am also posting this in the private forum as I have not notified Grand Prive that I am doing this as I actually didnt intend to make a post , however I don't think they would have a problem with it if they did, as I am stating the facts as they were explained to us. Whether what they said was the truth or not, is not for me to decide, but as they have been silent for so long you guys might find it interesting to hear what they had to say, so here goes:

I will try and make it brief, but it was a 2 to 3 hour meeting so I may leave some bits out but you should be able to get the general gist of it.

I received a call from a chap called Rudi who explained he was from Villa Fortuna and would like to come and see us. I didnt immediately recall the name but knew I had heard of it before, so asked him what group Villa Fortuna belonged to. He told me it was Grand Prive. Needless to say, I lay into the guy from a dizzy height and told him that we wanted nothing to do with Grand Prive in view of what they had done.
He asked me if we could at least hear them out, and could he and the MD William come and see us. We agreed to this. Bear in mind that the meeting was setup purely for them to give us an explanation and not as a request for us to promote Villa Fortuna as they knew there was too many issues to request something like that.

We had the meeting on Tuesday 20 October 2009.

Myself , my husband ( other Topboss owner ) William and Rudi were present.

From the onset we lay our cards on the table and told them that they have a really crappy name in the industry and that they need to come clean with us and tell us exactly why they did what they did and we all know what they did so I think there is no need to go into detail with this. Please also bear in mind that I cannot remember exact dates that were mentioned, so I am not going to mention actual dates . I am stating the facts as I recall them, but I did not take any notes.

The discussion was 99% with William ( I got the feeling that Rudy had only recently joined Grand Prive but I could be wrong )

William said that the bottom line is that the whole group of casinos started making losses after the whole UIGEA debacle and the closure of the USA market. They approached the shareholders with the financial statements, also approached Ecogra and microgaming and advised that they cannot continue recording losses and that they will have to close down the affiliate program. All parties apparently agreed that this was a business decision that had to made and they then sent out a notice to notify all their affiliates of this ( I no longer have a copy of their email that they sent so I am merely saying what they told us ) apparently in this email, they asked affiliates to contact them to migrate their existing players to the new casino and to advise on whether there was any outstanding amounts due to be paid.
According to William he said they received no responses from any affiliates, to the point that they double checked to ensure that their email had been sent because he said he had expected a flood of emails, but nothing came through. They then sent out a further email a few months later ( again, I am not sure of the exact time frame or dates ) and apparently in this email they then advised that the affiliate program was shut down and again asked affiliates to contact them regarding any outstanding payments and to migrate their players to Villa Fortuna. William said that some affiliates did make contact at this stage and they did pay out those affiliates and migrated their players.

We asked then why they have kept quiet for so long and why they have not tried to clear their name if in fact they are not guilty of not paying affiliates. They maintain that all of their players have been paid by the way. The one question and probably the most important question that we did not ask them was Why did they shut down only the affiliate program and not the casinos themselves In hindsight this was very silly from our side as this is the whole crux of the matter but we didnt think about this until after they had left , as we were basically just letting William talk.

The explanation we received regarding their silence is the following:

Soon after the second email was sent out there was various posts on the forums it seems that CAP started the original posts ( again my facts may not be straight because that was the feeling we got as William mentioned Warren Jolly and CAP a few times ) William then contacted Warren Jolly and asked if he could have a meeting with him to set the record straight. This meeting had apparently been setup at the next conference ( I think it was the London one not 100% sure but it was set for the same night that Steven Corfman was involved in that fight ) because according to William he sat and waited for Warren who sent someone to say that he could not make the meeting because there had been a security issue ( William found out later that this was the fight ) Warren then contacted him later to say that he could only meet with him the following evening, but William had explained that he was due to return to South Africa the following evening and could not change his tickets at such short notice. He maintains that he offered to pay for Warren to fly to South Africa for the meeting or to meet somewhere else at a later date.
He said Warren had then made a post and twisted the facts and had said that William had not pitched up for the meeting and when he had contacted him William had said if you want a meeting you have to come to SA William said that the post made him look like he was not interested in solving the problem.
Apparently it then got very nasty on the forums and William started receiving personal threats to himself and his family.

He said at this stage he did not know where to turn and just stopped responding to all the emails and forums as he was now worried in case any of the threats were carried out against his family. He admitted in hindsight that this was a big mistake to make and his silence only made matters worse.
I need to add that throughout the meeting he accepted that what they had done was wrong but he felt that the problem had spiraled to such a point that he didnt know how to even start trying to make amends, so he basically hid his head in the sand hoping that it would go away. ( he did not say those exact words, but that was the feeling we got whilst he was talking )

He pretty much asked us what he could do to make amends at this late stage of the game, and it wasnt in order to get webmasters to promote them again as he has pretty much resigned himself to the fact that the trust has been broken to an irreparable point, but that he cannot maintain silence forever because the problem will not go away.

We told him that it is never too late to come forward and give the webmasters an explanation and try and make right all the wrong that they did , by publicly apologizing and paying webmasters what they are owed, merely so that he can clear his own conscience if not anything else. Now this is our own personal feeling and bear in mind that we, meaning ,Topboss were not burned by Grand Prive like so many other webmasters were, so we do not have that deep seated anger that many other webmasters will understandably have.

We suggested that for a start he should make contact with someone like J Todd and offer to go on video, apologize and give the webmasters a truthful explanation with no bullshit and nothing held back. Perhaps also ask J Todd to write out a list of questions that they want answers to, and obtain a list of each and every webmasters gripe so that they can work through each and every one of them to resolve each issue.
Sorry for suggesting you J Todd, but we know that you are very well known in the industry and genuinely have affiliates interests at heart.

William agreed with this ( if JTodd was prepared to see him ) and said that he wants to try and make amends even though he knows it may be too little too late.

The meeting ended with William agreeing to make contact with JTodd.

Whether he will or not, we do not know but either he was a very good liar or he genuinely wants to make amends, and we got the feeling that he was genuine.

There you have it guys to do with what you will but like I said dont shoot the messenger!!!!!!
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Just to clarify...I wasn't attacking Webz/Dave. I actually have the utmost respect for the guy, and I think he knows that. I've always considered him one of the best webmasters out there. It just so happened that his post was the last one I read, and he was the one who used the phrase "tone it down".

Thanks Pina :thumbsup:

I would like to clarify why I posted what I did though and hopefully you will see that there are no double standards at play here.

For me, any webmaster that promotes the Virtual Group needs their head examined. That is the bottom line and if they link to their sites here on CM which have any virtual properties listed, then quite rightly they should be called to account here. But to do so in 2 seperate threads and also the poster's vistors message board within their public profile in a small amount of time could have the adverse affect of running the poster off the forum. This I don't want to see. Especially as the poster concerned ( TopBoss ) has indicated that Virtual are being removed across all of her properties.

The difference with Gamtrak and the issue I had with her, is that she had put herself forward as a leader of a new group - The Affiliate Union - A group that in itself by it's design was to be a voice for affiliates and by default represent mine and my peers interests. This put her up there for further scrutiny and quite rightly so IMO.

Also added to this that Gamtrak is renowned for making highly charged emotional outbursts as witnessed here and elsewhere, often littered with expletives, uncalled for personal attacks, factually inaccurate assertions and the such like. I felt therefore and still do that she is most certainly not the type of individual required for heading up a new 'professional' body - Regardless of whether I joined it or not.

Also there is the fact that many months before she had posted here on CM that her players did not have a problem with the Virtual Group and carried on promoting them regardless.

The difference with Topboss, is that she indicated straight away that Virtual would be removed from her properties, yet was still subjected to postings shortly afterwards that could possibly make her decide not to participate here. This is what I am trying to head off.

Unlike many webmasters I have actually sat down in person with the Virtual Casino Group, the new affiliate director of Gambling Wages and also their operations manager Amit. I have told them quite clearly what I feel they need to do to start making things right. I don't see it happening anytime soon.
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Perfect post, Pina!



Just few clicks :rolleyes:
I could vanish all banners from my site in less than 2 minutes.

I bought a site last month ( Gambling Advertisements - in my signature ) - I still have not had the time to update all the pages and links - Indeed half the links are still tagged under the previous owner and also there are several properties I do not promote listed there.
 
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