Fortune Lounge problems again

[jinnia]

if you use a dial-up connection, your IP changes every time you log on.

If you have a cable connection and it's dynamic, it changes automatically at times.

Also, if using cable to connect and have a static IP, it stays the same always.

There's more but will stop there....

 

[jinnia]

All IP's change, no one ever has the same IP constantly unless you have a static IP.

I could have IP (example)111.0.00.0.00 today, maybe for a few days, but then it automatically changes to where I'll have a different one, and the one I just had, someone else will have it.

If I am wrong, someone correct me?

 

[glodge]

Yes dial up's change everytime you log on.

Cable goes via a local neihbourhood router, which issues an IP. In Australia, a new IP is only issued when you either leave your PC turned off & also turn off your cable modem for a period greater than 48 hours.
However if the telco has been upgrading the router, 95% of the time you will gain a new IP.

As far as ADSL I have no idea.

Again this is in Australia, so have no idea about the rest of world.

 

[bewitch]

I use Cable Modem. My IP address is always the same, never changed. So I guess I can't open multiple account. (Just kidding)

 

[jinnia]

With cable connection when you turn off your computer, the IP changes when you turn it back on, but even leaving it running, IP changes by itself off and on.

ADSL, IDSL is all the same other than it's different speeds, and yes, it changes automatically also off and on, unless, like with cable, you have a static IP.

 

[glodge]

It obviously functions differently in the states.

 

[jinnia]

Internet Service Providers (ISP) makes plenty of mistakes like giving you MAC address to more than one person (client).

I don't know enough about IP's to really comment, so I'll just say, all IP's by dial-up change everytime you connect, and all cable connections automatically change off and on, unless you have a 'static' IP.

And all DSL (ADSL, IDSL) connections change also, unless you have a 'static' IP.

 

[tim5ny]

I,m also into high-speed online gaming, so I am constantly looking for more speed and better performance. Which means that I am constantly formatting my complete hard drive and re-installing the operating system and drivers. Sometimes I will use a different windows CD or operating system totally. I wonder if this will cause problems in the future with online gaming, since my computer is constantly changing. I guess I,ll find out!

 

[mikej28]

I connect via a 56k modem. So given that the IP address changes every time what is used to identify the computer?

I've emailed my ISP to find out how they allocate
IP addresses and to see if they have a theory on this.

 

[tim5ny]

So.... from what I am reading, if I visit my brother in North Carolina, and I want to play with him on my account that already exists, from his computer, I am breaking the rules?

 

[glodge]

mikej28,

Does your ISP force you through a proxy or do they claim to supply a straight connection?

If they claim it is a straight connection, they could very well be forcing you through a transparent proxy.

In the case of Cable or ADSL the casino's tracking could pick up something simular to the following :

lsanca2-ar33-4-35-155-100.lsanca2.dsl-verizon.net
Even though the IP may change, the ISP doesn't.

If your footprint only issues an IP this can be tracked back to the ISP that own the block range.

If on dial up the following :

h00a0cc697fe8.ne.client2.attbi.com

Again even though the hex number change, the ISP does not.


(Message edited by glodge on August 18, 2003)

 

[Casinomeister]

The issue here is player fraud, and it is not necessarily tied into IP addresses alone.

Fortune Lounge (along with most other casinos) look at the following when deciding whether or not to close an account:

Sharing identifiers (same computer)
Purchase patterns
Contact and address details.
Purchase patterns.
Play patterns.
Wagering patterns.
And other things they can't disclose. Obviously since then the fraudsters would find away around these "undisclosed" things.

I think most serious players would agree (like most have already in this forum) that the FL group is one of the better groups out there. And they have a very proactive anti-fraud department.

I think enough has been said about Mikej28's case. The casino closed his accounts, paid most of his winings (he is $400 richer), and made the decision that there was fraudulent activity occuring.

Also some common sense needs to be reckoned with. If tim5ny accesses his casino account from his brother's casino and allows his brother to play with him. Yes, he is probably breaking the rules. Read the T&Cs.

Think about it. If I were sitting at a blackjack table in Vegas, and one of you came up to me and started telling me how to play, and we started playing together, how long do you think that would last?

Anyway, that's off topic. I think this one can be put to rest.

 

[mikej28]

I appreciate your points Bryan but try and see it from my point of view. I don't like being accused of something I haven't done and I want to get to the bottom of it. It is important for every player, not just me, that this is cleared up. It's not just about money. I am CERTAIN that I have done nothing wrong. However, at this stage I cannot prove it. FL disagrees and feel it has sufficient evidence to suppoty its case. I bear FL no ill will but I know they are mistaken. I'm sorry you feel I am monopolising your forum.

 

[tim5ny]

From what I,ve read Mike, you,ve gotten more back than you,ve put into Fortune Lounge, and it,s not like you hit a progressive, and they,re withholding some significent amount from you. Time to move on... obviously to another casino group since they,ve banned you from theirs. It would be stupid for any of us including Bryan to take sides on this one because we don,t know you, and there is so little evidence given from either side. So...agree to disagree, and let,s put this baby to rest. I commend the FL group for getting involved in a public forum. Obviously, they care about their reputation, and they realize that stealing a few dollars is not in their best interest.

 

[pokeraddict]

I think I understand. This player opened an account while the check was in the mail. Thank you for clearing this up. I guess you're sure enough to take this stance but it doesnt look like you're 100%. It doesnt look like he opened an account in same name, only identifiers made you wonder. I guess thats all we are going to hear about this case closed. It's too bad that scam players have made you paranoid. I guess I understand all the issues in the business nowadays. I guess if this other person turns out to be legit and the charges dont get charged back then it will be a big mistake you made. I guess only the 60 days after that other account purchase will tell that tale.

 

[caruso]

I agree with Bryan that FL is one of the better / best MGs, and that they do NOT invoke the "fraud" accusation lightly. But there's a dangerous precedent that risks being set here:

"Undiscloseable fraudulent activity".

Although I understand the logic behind it, this is unfortunately a license to steal, and it could also be the thin end of the wedge. If the day arrives when Michael Staw and RTG get their heads around the "undiscloseable fraudulent activity" excuse I'm afraid I'm out the door and you won't see me for dust, because players are going to be ripped left, right, centre and sideways. The implications are huge: "Sorry, you're a fraudster. Can't tell you why though, 'cos it'd give the game away".

I can see Michael Staw rubbing his hands with glee as we speak. Tony Friedmann? Paul Jergens? WARREN CLOUD?? Oh, baby.

Unsatisfactory.

 

[sirius]

I've finally received the bonuses that were supposed to have been credited at the beginning of July. This is not the first time I have had these problems and it took even longer before and needed to contact Bryan on this site. Their explanation was completely inaccurate then.

Wim apologised a few months ago for this just after he joined my forum and credited all my FL accounts with $20.

I was also trying to resolve a problem with a player who had his deposits and winnings confiscated. Wim firstly told me he was in a Russian syndicate of 140 who had cost other casino operators a lot of money. He said credit card numbers were obtained illegally so deposits were not refunded because often the rightful owners would chargeback. This doesn't make much sense to me because if the deposits are refunded, the player can't chargeback!

I emailed Wim telling him this player had an IP address in Canada! He then said that this group operated 'out of Canada' but I didn't really understand what he meant. The player has a Russian sounding name because he is from Ukraine originally. Wim said the last thing he would want is for this to happen by mistake so he told me he would investigate it further and get back to me but despite other emails from me, I didn't get a reply until months later and I quoted a bit before where he says he would refund the purchases (the player's accounts are still closed and no winnings were sent).

Bryan seems to think Wim knows the truth but I don't think it makes sense that the player who complained to me was in a Russian syndicate of 140 players! He was from Ukraine originally and in Canada! Also, the chargebacks for the allegedly illegally obtained credit card numbers never materialised for this player. Wim seemed to say all the credit card numbers were obtained illegally for this syndicate.

Bryan, you listed above various methods a casino can use but there is not much more the casino can detect so what exactly is 'undisclosed'? There can't be much else.

It seems that a casino can claim multiple accounts or whatever and cancel winnings without any proof. It's all linked to bonuses by the way- why would casinos otherwise complain if more players were playing? Casinos shouldn't be able to do this unless they provide proof and I'm assuming they have shown it to Bryan as he seems certain. Wim never showed me any proof about the player who complained to me.

Someone visited my site yesterday after seaching for "fortunelounge" in google. On the second page of the google results (just above "Spammers EXPOSED"- see the next paragraph) there is a link to my forum where Wim signed up. Whoever visited, then did a search for the author posts and found posts on the "Fortune Lounge Group" thread. They are currently in the Dumped section!

Another point is that I've heard at least two people (probably more) complain on message boards that the can't unsubcribe from Fortune Lounge emails.

 

[fortunelounge]

sirius:

There is absolutely no commercial sense in locking player accounts without good reason. Especially not when it is becoming increasingly difficult to attract players to the casino. We are therefore extra careful when we lock accounts and we have become more lenient when it comes to unlocking accounts.

Unfortunately, being an on-line environment, we have to rely on sophisticated fraud detection methods and we have to request certain verification documentation which would not be the case in a land based casino. From this we have to make a decision. In certain cases we may indeed be over cautious.

I am very interested in the issue mentioned in your second last paragraph and will contact you directly for more information.

In terms of unsubscribing from our mails, I have answered before that players who have trouble unsubscribing should contact me. We have full control over e-mails sent directly from us and will be able to ensure that you do not receive any more mailings. Getting you unsubscribed from afilliate and publisher databases is a bit more difficult, even from our side.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[jetset]

Having at one time been on the operator side of the fence in the mid-nineties (thankfully never since!) I can assure you that large-scale syndicate attacks are a constant threat, and that they frequently emanate from Eastern European or Asian groups using ingenious and hard to detect techniques. And if an operator is not well-equipped and on his or her guard they can have very serious implications. As I said, it has been some time since I was involved so those techniques, and the counter-measures developed have probably moved up several gears.

Having said that, I find myself agreeing totally with Caruso's post. Who can be trusted - because that is what we are being asked to do here - and can we take the casino's unsupported word that they are behaving correctly?

It is not surprising that in an environment where we are daily exposed to a litany of screw-ups and screwings on both sides that players and casinos alike have developed a level of cynicism.

Perhaps what is needed is an "no man's land" level where both casinos and players feel confident in the confidentiality and impartiality of a small group of reputable individuals who can examine (in strict confidence enforced through ND contracts) the real detail on both sides of an issue and make a recommendation to both?

That would avoid the casino publicly disclosing sensitive information, but assure the player that the final decision was a considered one made on good grounds and not an arbitrary or "we're not sure so ban him anyway" affair.

I would see such a panel as also adjudicating on emotive issues such as negative databases.

Until such time as a generally accepted and recognized independent body proves itself, I can't think of another way around this impasse of trust.

 

[jpm]

I know its a little late but wanted to add:

There are other 'fingerprints' from your computer than just the IP address that the casinos can use to tell if more than one person is using the same computer at their casino. The MAC address is one, which is a unique serial number from your network card (or pseudo network card). It is typically burned into a rom on the network card and not easily changed. There are even more such fingerprints that could be looked at as well that I won't go into, since I don't want to give the fraudsters any more info than they already have. Suffice to say, there are plenty of ways that I could tell that you are using the same computer if I wanted to confirm it. Doing an fdisk and reloading the O/S would not wipe out all of these fingerprints.

To the issue of IP addresses etc, typically if your computer is on a cable modem and left on, your ip address will renew itself when the lease time gets to be about 1/2 over or so. Unless the cable company changes it network topology, you'll pretty much retain that same IP address as long as the computer is on. Even if its rebooted, it will go back and request the same IP address it just had. Many times the server which supplies the IP address will remember your computer's MAC address and give you back the same IP address even if you shutdown for a little while. Much past a day or so though and you will then probably get a new address the next time you boot. I had the same address for almost 2 years on my cable modem because I never shut down the machine. Made it handy to run a webserver off of without buying a static IP from some ISP.

DSL (and its variants) work similarly, particularly if you use a router behind the modem to connect. It will typically retain the same address until its rebooted. Dialup will give you a new address virtually every time you connect, however, the other identifiers (including the MAC) won't change.

I believe that if they found more than one account coming from the same computer, they have identified more than one of these 'fingerprints' in order to reach that conclusion.

I believe, however, that purchase and play patterns are a MUCH easier way to identify someone. We all have our particular styles & habits of playing and it would not be difficult to track these things and find sufficient similarities to conclude that two players are actually one in the same.

 

[jinnia]

Computer (hardware) ID:

Upon the first install, a Hardware ID (HWID) will be generated from your computer, based on an algorithm applied to several identifiers in your system.
This could be everything from 10 devices to just your MAC address.
The MAC address alone seems highly unlikely, because a) not everyone has a NIC, and b) that would mean that "tolerance" is not possible.

I connect by cable modem, and the company I go through, the IP automatically changes evey few days, no matter if you stay constantly connected, or reboot.

You change operating system, add new hardware, remove hardware, that to also changes your computer (hardware) ID.

Anyway, my understanding is: Only one account per household, address and/or computer to a casino.??

My roommate has own computer, but we use same connection through a server here at home. I contacted the casino I already had an account with, told them roommate wanted to open one, they told me what to do, I (we) done it, and no problem at all with either account.

All players have to do is take time to check into the Rules of the casino, then contact them about anything they are not sure of.

And do as they instruct you.

 

[pokeraddict]

and keep ALL their emails and live chat logs.

 

[jinnia]

Correct pokeraddict .. I have emails, text files, snap shots even .avi files of everything that envolves an online casino I play at.

Just smart to do so, I think!

 

[cipher]

Agreed and Amen to that Jinnia. Have a good one.

Cipher

 

[jamesdean]

In my experiences with FL I have been paid by cheque when I asked for pay to neteller. When I have been paid to neteller it has taken longer then most mgs take. Their support is often ill mannered and their spam is second to none. To call them one of the best mg's, or even close to the best is a little far fetched. Their is no mg group which has more complaints brought to these forums, and sure they fix the situations when they are in the wrong and villify those who are fraudulent, but why do they have so many complaints in which they are in the wrong brought on these forums? One answer, when a problem is brought to their support, their support goes out of their way to be rude and divulge zero useful information. If the support at FL would attempt to be helpful and forthright with a complaint then the times when FL does wrongly accuse someone of fraud would not come to the point of bringing it to the forums because they could solve it internally. Instead FL workers choose to invoke their arrogant superiority complex over a customer with a complaint and not work to get to the bottom of it. This group could be so much better if they would fire all their phone support and hire people who are freindly and helpful.