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Fortlip VS Nedplay/32Red

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by Fortlip, Feb 17, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
    Feb 17, 2010
  1. Fortlip

    Fortlip Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Canada
    Late in January, after I heard the exciting news that Nedplay had switched to the dependable and trustworthy hands of 32Red, I navigated over to their refurbished website and downloaded the casino. I had in mind a safe, wholesome experience that would provide me with worry-free entertainment. Especially after reading the horror stories about Nedplay posted here, about players waiting weeks to get paid, in contrast to the venerative honours awarded to 32Red, I felt confident I had made an intelligent decision to come to them to play.

    I had a wonderful time playing at Nedplay, and after winning in excess of 1600 pounds, the winnings were subjected to 100x in additional playthrough, surrounding what is meant by "individual bets" in an ambiguous term allowing a maximum bet of 25% of the bonus value,
    From what support said by telephone prior to when I played, only each bet on 5 seats at a Multi-hand table was counted. None of my bets at the multi-hand table exceeded this 25% value. I noticed in a positive review posted on the boards, a user posted part of a chat in which this explanation was confirmed (http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casinos/36231-sweet-sweet-ride-nedplay.html),
    On February 3rd after I played, the term was clarified for future players when the staff at 32Red added a sentence on all of their affiliate websites,
    Pat Harrison, their respected and exceptionally polite director of operations, claims he cannot find either the phone call or the chat in the records, and for that reason alone, he has upheld the decision by Dale Williams in the payments department to reverse my withdrawal and add 100x in playthrough, effectively voiding not only my winnings, but my deposit as well. 32Red's claim is that the term has always counted Multi-hand bets as a single bet, and that the sentence was added purely to make that obvious. In his explanation he discusses how 5 bets summed together make an individual bet,

    One of the operational standards for an Accredited casino on Casinomeister is that it "Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons." In my opinion, with or without an explanation from support, applying this term in its original form citing "individual bets" is wide open to interpretation as far as whether doubles or splits or multi-hand seats count together; it is unclear for any newcoming player.

    Throughout the past week, dealing with Pat and even during a short back and forth with Ed, their CEO, I believe all parties involved have been candid and as straightforward as possible. Nonetheless, in hindsight this experience was a great deal less than I expected coming to the coveted "Casino of the Decade".

    As a final note, ironically, had Nedplay remained in the hands of its previous owners without the term, despite the nuisance of waiting weeks or months to be paid, and the much abhorred inferior service, this problem may have been entirely avoided.
     
  2. Feb 17, 2010
  3. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    There is a thread dealing with almost the identical issue here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...way-confiscating-winnings-absurd-grounds.html

    However, that player has pitched a bitch...so it's gone dormant. I was undecided about that one, and pretty much the same here. I really think it's open to interpretation, and any advantage player is going to JUMP on it...if it's not spelled out precisely in the terms what is allowed re: Multi-Hand games such as Blackjack.

    I'm really on the fence about the whole issue...I can see both sides. I do find disturbing the fact that you say they couldn't locate either your chat or your phone call. That is certainly not like them. Did they locate ANY chat or phone call that took place at the times you said they did? Or is there just absolutely zero record on the logs?

    I would strongly suggest you use the PAB service, and allow Max access to ALL the relevant info, from both parties. And while the PAB process is ongoing, you should cease to post any further on the issue. I'll be curious to see the outcomes of both these cases.
     
  4. Feb 17, 2010
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This looks like there has been a new "advantage play" method doing the rounds. It exploits the ambiguity of "a single bet" when it comes to multi-hand games where there are separate seats for the player, but only ONE dealer hand. This loophole allows the player to post 5x25% per dealer hand in an attempt to circumvent the 25% rule.
    Many casinos simply confiscate the winnings, giving them a 100x extra WR does at least give the player a chance to redeem themselves by playing within the terms from then on WITH the winnings gained by the initial breach. This same approach was taken by Lasseters casino under strict Australian regulation, they added extra WR rather than confiscating winnings.

    Ideally, the software should be upgraded to enforce such rules, making it IMPOSSIBLE for such bets to be made in the first place, rather than having to deal with a messy argument between player and casino, often in public. These programmers at MGS can come out with all these new games, yet cannot write a piece of code to calculate 25% of a variable already known to the software, and apply the result as a max bet limitation.
     
    2 people like this.
  6. Feb 17, 2010
  7. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    There shouldnt be any question about these kind of issues. The casinos need to pay and clearly state that multiple hands (in this case Multi-Hand BJ) are considered as a single bet.

    They (casinos) have written the term very poorly. In the case of 32Red I know that players have been told in live chat that double and splits dont break the 25% rule when they infact do.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Feb 17, 2010
  9. Fortlip

    Fortlip Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Canada
    The 100x Playthrough 32Red added is applied to the winnings by itself, not the net win by subtracting the losses. In my case this amounts to 371,537.50 in PT on slots.

    There is no conceivable way a player can play through this amount and cash out any part of his winnings or deposit with a balance under 2k.

    My play was not an attempt to circumvent the rules; the term clearly specifies individual bets, and by looking closely at the monitor while you're playing Multi-hand games, you will notice the chips on each seat are in their own, individual, positions.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Feb 18, 2010
  11. mclee321

    mclee321 Meister Member PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Software QA Engineer
    Location:
    Dublin
    I'm not really interested of the semantics of the 25% rule. I do have an a opinion though, this is not a statement of fact.

    You were betting over 62.50 per round on multi hand blackjack on a bonus of 250? Lets face it, I'm not the only one here thinking you were trying to make a fast buck with bonus hunting tactics.

    What is even more irritating is the original post, a relatively shallow and transparent piece of passive aggressive writing; Build up sympathy by describing the casino is glowing terms (and in a way partially heaping blame on all and sundry for giving 32Red good reviews), then attacking their rules with a display of self righteous sorrow. Gather round and defend the injured party all!!

    Give me a break.

    Advantage play is one of the reasons the few bonuses I get offered now have outrageous Wagering Requirements and seem set to go higher and higher. I used to enjoy extended playtime with a bonus, but apart from a few offered now (32red's club rouge monthly springs to mind), they are pointless to take.
     
    3 people like this.
  12. Feb 18, 2010
  13. aldian

    aldian Banned User

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Greece
    Just take a look at the last three complaints here (including this) and the one that has currently been resolved on GPWA to get an idea who is responsible for most of the trouble.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Feb 18, 2010
  15. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    The OP is obviously an advantage player and a manipulator from what I have have read in the first post. There should be ways to confirm the existence of the phone call which is likely to have been recorded. However, since it has vanished into thin air, what actually transpired is anyone's guess.

    What 32RED had probably done wrong was to update or rather clarify the Ts and Cs after the play by the OP. This would seem to most observers that they are trying to make amends after they goofed up. Though my experience with them in the past would indicate this is not the case, I believe that 32RED should pay up. While I dont condone the actions of the OP in placing large individual bets on Multi-Player BJ to circumvent the rules, the fact is each $62.5 wager is an individual bet and hence 5 individual risks. You can lose 3 bets and win 2, lose 2 and win 3 etc.etc.

    I know why the 25% rule was introduced and believe they are right to protect themselves against advantage players. However, when introducing these new terms, more thought must be given in writing them up so as to plug any loopholes. You just got caught out by one extremely intelligent advantage player who also happens to write very well.

    As a side note, the OP mentions that he believed Nedplaye (32RED) would offer him worry-free entertainment. He then places his entire bankroll on one game of BJ. Well, if that is entertainment, it could be short-lived. I would rather call it 'lavish excitement'.
     
    3 people like this.
  16. Feb 18, 2010
  17. aldian

    aldian Banned User

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Greece
    But please stop to moan then if you have bonus T&Cs with 48 paragraphs or so because this is the result of that.
     
  18. Feb 18, 2010
  19. Fortlip

    Fortlip Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Canada
    Yes, this behaviour by 32RED is drastically different than I expected from the Top Accredited Casino.
     
  20. Feb 18, 2010
  21. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    @Fortlip, I see you've only joined Casinomeister a few days ago in which case you may not be familiar with our Pitch-A-Bitch process. This is our formal complaint process and the course we _strongly_ recommend when you have an issue with an Accredited casino.

    For more info on the Pitch-A-Bitch (aka PAB) process start here: Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ.

    Please note that as part of the PAB submission you will be required to have read and understood the FAQ.

    I should add that given the reputation and track record of the 32Red team I strongly suggest you take Pat at his word: if he says he finds no record of the phonecall or chat then you can be assured that that's exactly what he has found. Nothing. It's not a "claim", it's the situation as he sees it. For you to begin your time at Casinomeister by implying that a widely known and respected casino manager is a liar is not a good start.

    Furthermore I would expect that a player who is obviously as experienced and articulate as yourself, someone shrewd enough to seek clarification of that specific Term, would also keep a record of their communications with the casino on such an issue. Your failure to do so is puzzling.

    Finally, I'll go so far as to say that your claim that newbies won't understand that Term and that it is a violation of the Accredited casinos "vague & unclear reasons" rule is equally disingenuous. You are obviously not a newbie player. Unless you spend a considerable amount of time with such players I wonder how it is that you can speculate on what they would and would not understand. And the suggestion that 32Red via Nedplay has intentionally confiscated your winnings under such circumstances is a serious accusation and one that escalates your issue well beyond the forums.

    Bottom line: submit your complaint to the PAB process or stand down. There is too much here that is vague and unclear for it to be obvious to me that you are not in violation of Forum Rules #1.11:
    Regards,
    Max Drayman
    Casinomeister.com, Pitch-A-Bitch Manager and Forum Moderator
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
    1 person likes this.
  22. Feb 18, 2010
  23. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Dont just quote me on that bit alone. Actually I dislike advantage players who try to find a chink in the armoury of the Ts and Cs to suit their personal purposes in the search of a fast buck. 32RED is still the best as far as I am concerned. I hope that we can trace that elusive telephone conversation.
     
  24. Feb 18, 2010
  25. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    I'm just curious Fortlip, if you confirmed this yourself via chat, or just via phone? And if by chat, do you have your own copy of your chat log? I'm wondering why you would rely on someone else's posted chat log for written confirmation of T&C's, when you are obviously an advantage player, who is probably very used to getting things in writing? Why just confirm via phone? Anyway, this is why I said that the PAB process would be best...to allow Max to examine all info from both parties.

    I get stuck on small details sometimes, and it seems very strange that the casino can find no record of your interaction, and what you choose to post as proof, is an excerpt of a chat log, from someone else's experience at the same casino...rather than your own.

    Bottom line, if there was a loophole available for exploit in the T&C's, then the casino should pay the player I believe. And make sure that for future players, it is spelled out in black and white...with no ambiguity whatsoever. If this isn't done by all casinos (not just 32Red/Nedplay), we are going to see ALOT more of these cases...guaranteed.

    EDIT: I had another question for Fortlip. Are you an existing player at 32Red? And have you had previous experience with their bonuses, and their terms, etc? I'm only asking because I think they've had the 25% rule for quite a while now...much before other MG's clarified the specific percentage of bankroll allowed to be bet per hand, spin..whatever. I'm just wondering what your prior experiences with 32Red and their bonuses have been like?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  26. Feb 18, 2010
  27. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Thread title changed to better reflect the nature of this developing situation.
     
  28. Feb 18, 2010
  29. Fortlip

    Fortlip Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Canada
    No point to that besides saving 32Red from bad publicity. Everything written in the original title about 32Red adding 300,000 in PT was accurate.
     
  30. Feb 18, 2010
  31. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    I dont know why, but I have a strange feeling about this one - something seems vaguely familiar about the OP.

    Anyway, my opinion is that any seasoned "player" (I use that term loosely) thinking of doing something that sails close to the wind would get confirmation in writing before attempting it - unless of course they figured "Oh what the heck, if they call me out at withdrawal time Ill just make a fuss in public and make them pay anyway". A quick email, responded to within minutes by 32Red, could have prevented all of this......the question is, did the OP want it to be clarified and documented??? Ive seen this gambit many times by advantage players (and flat out fraudsters too btw) and the other members are correct in stating that this is why there are such harsh restrictions these days.

    Looking forward to hearing the truth from both sides.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Feb 18, 2010
  33. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    Fortlip, have you pitched a bitch as yet? If not, why not? If you have, I for one, will cease from posting in this thread.

    If you haven't, could you please answer the questions I posed in my previous post re: your own chat logs/written confirmation of support clarifying the terms for you..and of your past and/or current history with 32Red themselves.

    Thanks.
     
  34. Feb 18, 2010
  35. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Oh Hai! Wondered where you had gone. Happy to see you're still with us.

    The accuracy of your claims is what the PAB process will determine. As I've said, your accusations are serious and need investigation. If it turns out your story is for real then I'll happily return the thread to it's former title. Until that time your claims have been challenged and so ... you VS the casino is exactly what we have here.

    Still waiting for that PAB, just in case it had slipped your mind. :D

    The fun starts here: Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ.
     
  36. Feb 18, 2010
  37. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    Echo, echo, echo....the silence is deafening. Pretty simple questions Fortlip. Did you yourself get confirmation in writing of the terms?

    And two, do you have a current or past history with 32Red, and more specifically their bonus terms?

    Why do I feel we are not going to get an answer here? :rolleyes:
     
  38. Feb 18, 2010
  39. El_Bastardo

    El_Bastardo maxd's dimwit twin

    Location:
    El Bastardo land
    Hi ham Eduardo, zee bastard coozeen hov de Max.

    Eess belly belly silencio hin dees place, no?

    Dee peepoles har vaiting por sumsing vrom dees guy and hwat eez coomink?

    Hi tink maybeez nosink hiz coomink.

    Ho! Max ee heez coomink back. Hi go haway now. Chow chow.
     
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