For The RTP Experts...

[all4greed]

Need some help if this can be figured out.

If I have $240, bet until busted out, and had a RTP of 85%, how much were my total wagers?

 

[dionysus]

I'm not a math whiz by any stretch but it seems like there's alot of variables there. I mean, you could play for 2 hours or 12 and still have the same RTP and bust out.

 

[KasinoKing]

You mean one for the maths experts!

I'm not a total expert, but I can work that out;
85% RTP = 15% House win = 0.15
240/0.15 = 1600

So your total wagers were $1,600

KK

 

[dionysus]

But couldn't you have wagered far more over say 2 days, and still bust out and have an 85%?

 

[KasinoKing]

But couldn't you have wagered far more over say 2 days, and still bust out and have an 85%?

No.
We have 2 fixed elements of a three part equation - so the other part of the equation is fixed too.

You can check my calculations by doing it the other way:
Amount wagered = $1,600 x 85% = $1,360 returned to the player.
$1,600 minus $1,360 = $240 = the amount lost.

If you change the amount wagered but keep the RTP the same, the loss would not be $240
e.g. Amount wagered = $5,000 x 85% = $4,250
$5,000 minus $4,250 = $750 lost

KK

 

[dionysus]

yes, but that's a loss based on wins and gains, not a deposit of $240...it wasn't stated whether the cashier recorded a $240 overall loss or a deposit loss of $240. I mean I could deposit $240 and have an 85% RTP couldn't I having lost all $240, yet having wagered thousands and thousands yet losing and still turning up an 85%, no?
for example, I could make a high WR of oh say, 50X having played all day and night and another day, still lose it all in the end and have an overall 85% but the wagering amounts are different as opposed to say a one hour session

 

[Takkaone]

do we really know, that this is the way rtp is calculated? amount wagered x rtp = loss / win

is it not possible that the casinos use a different kind of calculation which takes into account the betsize and return for each bet and then calculates the median return?

e.g. 50 spins x 2 euro = 100 euro bet giving a return of 50 euro, which is = 50% RTP

then i lower my betsize and make 50 spins x 0.5 euro bet giving a return of 25 euro, which is = 100% RTP

so i would have made (50 spins x 50% RTP) + (50 spins x 100 % RTP) = 100 spins x 75% RTP

but in reality i did bet 125 euro and got a return of 75 euro, which would be = 60% RTP

looks to me like it would make a big difference what kind of method they calculate the RTP, which could even lead to sessions where you win money and have an under 100% rtp / or sessions where you lose money and have an over 100% rtp....


as a dislcaimer i have to add: i hope this all makes sense to someone else, as my math-teacher from 11th to 13th grade used to call me the german equivalent of "mathematically challenged"

 

[KasinoKing]

yes, but that's a loss based on wins and gains, not a deposit of $240...it wasn't stated whether the cashier recorded a $240 overall loss or a deposit loss of $240. I mean I could deposit $240 and have an 85% RTP couldn't I having lost all $240, yet having wagered thousands and thousands yet losing and still turning up an 85%, no?

For example, I could make a high WR of oh say, 50X having played all day and night and another day, still lose it all in the end and have an overall 85% but the wagering amounts are different as opposed to say a one hour session

Still no.
I can understand why you are thinking that, but you are getting Actual RTP and Theoretical RTP confused.

The OP stated they lost $240 and got an Actual RTP of 85% - therefore the amount wagered must have been $1,600.
It can not vary.

Now they could play a game with a Theoretical RTP of 85% all week and only end up losing $240 - but then they would not be getting an Actual RTP of 85% - it would be a much higher figure.

KK

 

[KasinoKing]

so i would have made (50 spins x 50% RTP) + (50 spins x 100 % RTP) = 100 spins x 75% RTP

This is the error part of your thinking.
You can't just take the average of those 2 RTPs and say it's 75% - because the amount wagered in each was different.

You have to take the Total Loss and divide by the Total Wagered to get your RTP - so your second calculation in the correct one; the RTP was 60%.

KK

 

[Simmo!]

I can understand why you are thinking that, but you are getting Actual RTP and Theoretical RTP confused.

Good point - very different beasts

 

[GrandMaster]

If the slot has a theoretical return of 85%, i.e., a house edge of 15%, then the expectation of the amount you have to wager before you lose $240 is $1600. Most of the time, you will lose $240 a lot faster, but occasionally you will hit something big and will be able to play a lot more.

 

[Jufo]

do we really know, that this is the way rtp is calculated? amount wagered x rtp = loss / win

is it not possible that the casinos use a different kind of calculation which takes into account the betsize and return for each bet and then calculates the median return?

e.g. 50 spins x 2 euro = 100 euro bet giving a return of 50 euro, which is = 50% RTP

then i lower my betsize and make 50 spins x 0.5 euro bet giving a return of 25 euro, which is = 100% RTP

so i would have made (50 spins x 50% RTP) + (50 spins x 100 % RTP) = 100 spins x 75% RTP

but in reality i did bet 125 euro and got a return of 75 euro, which would be = 60% RTP

The latter (60%) is the actual RTP taking bet size into account. The former (75%) is the RTP relative to unit bets. Sometimes the former RTP value (75%) comes into question if you want to eliminate the effect of varying bet size from the RTP calculations.

 

[binary128]

No.

We have 2 fixed elements of a three part equation - so the other part of the equation is fixed too.

I think that this post was a succinct and accurate description. The 3 parts of the equation are:

1. Total Bet

2. Total Win (or in this case Total Loss)

3. RTP

(Total Bet - Total Loss) / Total Bet = RTP.

Total Bet is just that - it doesn't matter how the bets were made, when, or at what rate or magnitude. The same for Total Win or Total Loss.

There is a long thread titled Return to Player - Critiques Requested.

At the bottom of the first post is a link to a file that probably contains a lot more words than you want to read. (This is why I used the word "succinct" above. )

However, and I am totally biased in saying so, I think that it does a pretty thorough job at covering the subject.

Chris

 

[Tirilej]

Finally I have come to the conclusion...I will never get it

The more I read all of these threads, believing I will learn more about this subject, the more confused I get.
Time to move on I think letting you guys do the tough thinking.
Just please let me know when the casinos is cheating or lying, because I trust you more than them:notworthy

 

[binary128]

I think that "I don't know" should be a completely acceptable answer to any question that anyone has ever asked of anyone else.

(It may not be the best answer, but it should at least be acceptable. )

 

[ThePOGG]

Finally I have come to the conclusion...I will never get it

The more I read all of these threads, believing I will learn more about this subject, the more confused I get.
Time to move on I think letting you guys do the tough thinking.
Just please let me know when the casinos is cheating or lying, because I trust you more than them:notworthy

I don't know that players screaming 'cheat' should always be trusted, but with a forum like this one many people saying the same thing *can* be indicitive of a problem and there are certain posters that are well worth listening to on that topic - Jufo is a very capible player and poster, you will never go far wrong following his advice.

 

[smcinoz]

 

[Tirilej]

I don't know that players screaming 'cheat' should always be trusted, but with a forum like this one many people saying the same thing *can* be indicitive of a problem and there are certain posters that are well worth listening to on that topic - Jufo is a very capible player and poster, you will never go far wrong following his advice.

Sorry, it was more of a "funpost". I obviously have a way of writing that makes people believe I'm totally stupid. Not your fault. It's mine.
I won't make that kind of post again without being more clear.
I don't listen to everyone screaming cheating, and I know exactly who I trust. Jufo is one of them, KK is another, and a few more.
Good advice though