For people who play at 3Dice.

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skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I just had a chat with Ellen. Money taken from the safe no longer counts toward vip.

I had a 25 dollar gift, turned it into over 100 bucks put it all in the safe and piddled it away on a losing streak that took me back to zero.

It's fine, you win some you lose some.

Now I find out that the 400 dollars in play I generated and the 80 or 90 dollars in safe deposits don't count toward vip anymore.

So if you want your winnings to count toward your vip you have to take it out of the casino. I'll use Moneybookers or back to my credit card from now on.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I just had a chat with Ellen. Money taken from the safe no longer counts toward vip.

I had a 25 dollar gift, turned it into over 100 bucks put it all in the safe and piddled it away on a losing streak that took me back to zero.

It's fine, you win some you lose some.

Now I find out that the 400 dollars in play I generated and the 80 or 90 dollars in safe deposits don't count toward vip anymore.

So if you want your winnings to count toward your vip you have to take it out of the casino. I'll use Moneybookers or back to my credit card from now on.

I'm guessing they're doing it due to abuse. Maybe some are continually moving money in and out of the safe to create "ghost deposits" to artificially increase their vip status. If its true, then its another example of the innocent paying the price for the actions of the dodgy (you being innocent :) )

It might be an unpopular view, but I don't think the VIP program is very good at all....certainly not in comparison to 32red etc. I do like that I can sometimes get a 50% match with no WR (albeit small) and the quick payouts, but otherwise there's not much else. I'm not as big a fan as I once was, especially since that ISS game came out.....I had a few good hits early on when there were heaps of players, but now that there's almost nobody playing it, my cash just get sucked like a vacuum. I haven't had a multiplier over 40 in months and that green stuff is much more scarce.

Anyway, sorry for the partial derail.
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I'm guessing they're doing it due to abuse. Maybe some are continually moving money in and out of the safe to create "ghost deposits" to artificially increase their vip status. If its true, then its another example of the innocent paying the price for the actions of the dodgy (you being innocent :) )

It might be an unpopular view, but I don't think the VIP program is very good at all....certainly not in comparison to 32red etc. I do like that I can sometimes get a 50% match with no WR (albeit small) and the quick payouts, but otherwise there's not much else. I'm not as big a fan as I once was, especially since that ISS game came out.....I had a few good hits early on when there were heaps of players, but now that there's almost nobody playing it, my cash just get sucked like a vacuum. I haven't had a multiplier over 40 in months and that green stuff is much more scarce.

Anyway, sorry for the partial derail.

Actually comparing the vip to 32Red is like apples and oranges. 3Dice has many different vip levels, the lowest basically allowing you to play all the tournaments. From there the levels go to bronze, silver, gold and some sort of God like status that nobody talks about.

The initial 50 dollar per month deposit is enough to get you the lowest vip level. Some people like to make small deposits and low roll. Not everyone is a big time gambler. Some people pay the 50 bucks and then play the tournaments for the most part and they aren't that easy to win but it kills time. Now the way it used to work is if you had some winnings like I did today I could withdraw it to the safe rather than take it right out of the casino. Then when I take it back out of the safe it still counts as a deposit. Apparently that is no longer the case. None of the money I had in my safe today counted toward me getting a vip status. The 25 dollar gift counted toward it but the money from the safe didn't. Almost 4x as much as I would have needed to make the required 50 dollars.

All this is fine but it would be nice to be informed of these changes so I would change my methods. I could have easily withdrew the money to MB and then sent it back later on. That is the whole idea behind using the safe. When people win they like to put it in the safe rather than withdraw it from the casino and then play it in smaller "deposits" later on. It benefits the player because they don't have the hassle of taking the money out of the casino and it benefits the casino because you'll probably end up losing it anyway and the money never left the casino. lol

All I know is if I won money and put it in the safe it used to count toward retaining my vip. Today it did not. That is new and I don't know about anyone else but nobody told me.
 

Pocketdiggers77

Gamester
Joined
May 9, 2006
Location
On Top of Old Smokey
I just had a chat with Ellen. Money taken from the safe no longer counts toward vip.

I had a 25 dollar gift, turned it into over 100 bucks put it all in the safe and piddled it away on a losing streak that took me back to zero.

It's fine, you win some you lose some.

Now I find out that the 400 dollars in play I generated and the 80 or 90 dollars in safe deposits don't count toward vip anymore.

So if you want your winnings to count toward your vip you have to take it out of the casino. I'll use Moneybookers or back to my credit card from now on.


Do you mean the $50 deposit a month required to play in the free tournaments? I always thought that any money wagered counted towards your VIP status. how that is determined is a 3dice mystery. I have asked for some sort of counter but that never materialized. It would be nice if we knew how much wagering we needed to advance to the next level. the 3dice bounses are small in comparison but they are ok with me. I can work with it.
 

blonde

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Location
London, Aussie...hell who knows
I just had a chat with Ellen. Money taken from the safe no longer counts toward vip.

I had a 25 dollar gift, turned it into over 100 bucks put it all in the safe and piddled it away on a losing streak that took me back to zero.

It's fine, you win some you lose some.

Now I find out that the 400 dollars in play I generated and the 80 or 90 dollars in safe deposits don't count toward vip anymore.

So if you want your winnings to count toward your vip you have to take it out of the casino. I'll use Moneybookers or back to my credit card from now on.

Well I for one totally agree with this. I have said for a while now that to retain your VIP level you need to make the minimum deposit. IMO when you play the "safe" game with "gifts" it is not fair to depositors in regards to competition with tournaments etc. If you have made the minimum deposit in the last 30 days, then I am sure your game play today would of counted towards your VIP level. Cashing out your winnings has nothing to do with your VIP level, if you are a VIP player then game play will count from your 400 dollars in play.
 

blonde

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Location
London, Aussie...hell who knows
Do you mean the $50 deposit a month required to play in the free tournaments? I always thought that any money wagered counted towards your VIP status. how that is determined is a 3dice mystery. I have asked for some sort of counter but that never materialized. It would be nice if we knew how much wagering we needed to advance to the next level. the 3dice bounses are small in comparison but they are ok with me. I can work with it.

A $50 monthly deposit is needed to be a VIP player, however lets say you are a Silver 5 player and make your monthly required deposit, then do not have any luck the previous 10 days for the loyalty time frame, you will only drop one level. Another scenario; you deposit one time, $50 and play the rest of the month on tourney wins and do pretty good racking up comp points, this counts. It is a bit confusing, hope I didn't make things worse :D
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I've heard this same story many times over. It's not unfair for any player who deposited 50 dollars to play the vip tournaments.

Bottom level vip is vip. If you deposited more and played more you get higher level vip.

A 50 dollar deposit is required to play the vip tournaments each month. As it stood for as long as I've known, deposits from the safe counted as deposits.

Not having to remove your money from the casino is the entire reason behind using the safe. If deposits from the safe don't count as "deposits" then people who want to use their winnings to retain bottom level vip will just have to take at least 50 dollars out of the casino and then deposit back in.

First of all, there are already 17 different categories of player ranging from Member to Platinum with 5 Bronze, 5 Silver and 5 Gold levels in between. Each category has its own set of deposit bonuses, no-deposit bonuses, entry codes and extra entry codes to 3 different tournaments (bronze, silver and gold.) There are 2 different categories of tournament for VIP and Non-VIP members.

What if a player made a deposit in the last 30 day period but not the current one, did not lose the money, popped it in the safe and came back a later to play it? VIP or not?

What if a player wins 10 dollars on the 1st of the month in a tournament, turns it into 200 dollars worth of real money and sticks in the safe? Should that player deposit more money from outside the casino in addition to the 200 that’s already in the safe in the next 30 days to be considered VIP?

Should the player withdraw the 200 to Moneybookers or some other eWallet, wait a day then redeposit back into the casino so it now counts as a deposit? Or should that money not count at all? Withdraw the money, stick it in your left pocket, reach in your right pocket pull out a brand new 50 dollars and deposit that with some verification that it is not in fact part of the original 200 dollars you won with the 10 dollar tournament win?

What if a player never made a deposit? What if some new player or a player who’s had problems making deposits decided to play a free tournament for Non-VIP members and won 10 dollars, turned that into 200 and stuck that in his or her safe? Is that considered real money? It does say right at the top of the cashier “Play free tournaments, win real money.” So assuming that is true and the 200 dollars is real money, how is that turned into a deposit? Should the player and the casino pay for the cost of withdrawing it and re-depositing for it to qualify as a “real” deposit?

Ok, let’s forget the whole can of worms that new set of deposit rules would open up and look at the logistics of the suggestion some players have had that there should be different tournaments for different levels of vip. (Apart from the 3 different loyalty tournaments.) Because as we all know the reps don’t have nearly enough to do already with setting up free tournaments, VIP tournaments, buy in tournaments, community tournaments, trivia tournaments, sponsored tournaments, chat hunts and chat games. Lets tack on some more like:

VIP/deposited in the last 30 days from outside of the casino tournaments.
VIP/ deposited real money from the safe that they had left over from 30 days ago rather than withdrawing it and re-depositing it tournaments.
VIP/managed to wager 10,000 dollars before losing the 10 dollars they won in a tournament… tournaments?

And of course I’m sure even that would leave them lots of spare time to answer questions like:
“I didn't deposit since the 4th but I did earn 900 loyalty points in the last 30 days. Which tournaments can I play?”
“Will my withdrawal be processed soon? There’s a deposited from outside the casino tournament coming up and I’d like to redeposit my winnings.”

Of course there’s always the option of just not worrying about what everyone else deposited or whether or not they paid their cable bill or if they could afford real Chinese food or had to settle for a bowl of Raman noodles with soy sauce and just be happy for people when they actually manage to win some real money regardless of how they won it even if it means they get to play in the same tournament as you.
 

blonde

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Location
London, Aussie...hell who knows
I've heard this same story many times over. It's not unfair for any player who deposited 50 dollars to play the vip tournaments.

Bottom level vip is vip. If you deposited more and played more you get higher level vip.=

Whoa buddy, first of all I never said who deposits that it is unfair if they play the tournaments. Maybe look over what I posted, thanks! I am excluding myself from this convo as with the past convo's between the two of us leads to nowhere. You posted on the 3dice forum already, so not really sure what the intentions are for this thread, anyway Gl to you skiny.
 

hokiepoker

Dormant Account
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Location
Here
Stop it.... you'll go blind!!!

I've heard this same story many times over. It's not unfair for any player who deposited 50 dollars to play the vip tournaments.

Bottom level vip is vip. If you deposited more and played more you get higher level vip.

A 50 dollar deposit is required to play the vip tournaments each month. As it stood for as long as I've known, deposits from the safe counted as deposits.

Not having to remove your money from the casino is the entire reason behind using the safe. If deposits from the safe don't count as "deposits" then people who want to use their winnings to retain bottom level vip will just have to take at least 50 dollars out of the casino and then deposit back in.

First of all, there are already 17 different categories of player ranging from Member to Platinum with 5 Bronze, 5 Silver and 5 Gold levels in between. Each category has its own set of deposit bonuses, no-deposit bonuses, entry codes and extra entry codes to 3 different tournaments (bronze, silver and gold.) There are 2 different categories of tournament for VIP and Non-VIP members.

What if a player made a deposit in the last 30 day period but not the current one, did not lose the money, popped it in the safe and came back a later to play it? VIP or not?

What if a player wins 10 dollars on the 1st of the month in a tournament, turns it into 200 dollars worth of real money and sticks in the safe? Should that player deposit more money from outside the casino in addition to the 200 that’s already in the safe in the next 30 days to be considered VIP?

Should the player withdraw the 200 to Moneybookers or some other eWallet, wait a day then redeposit back into the casino so it now counts as a deposit? Or should that money not count at all? Withdraw the money, stick it in your left pocket, reach in your right pocket pull out a brand new 50 dollars and deposit that with some verification that it is not in fact part of the original 200 dollars you won with the 10 dollar tournament win?

What if a player never made a deposit? What if some new player or a player who’s had problems making deposits decided to play a free tournament for Non-VIP members and won 10 dollars, turned that into 200 and stuck that in his or her safe? Is that considered real money? It does say right at the top of the cashier “Play free tournaments, win real money.” So assuming that is true and the 200 dollars is real money, how is that turned into a deposit? Should the player and the casino pay for the cost of withdrawing it and re-depositing for it to qualify as a “real” deposit?

Ok, let’s forget the whole can of worms that new set of deposit rules would open up and look at the logistics of the suggestion some players have had that there should be different tournaments for different levels of vip. (Apart from the 3 different loyalty tournaments.) Because as we all know the reps don’t have nearly enough to do already with setting up free tournaments, VIP tournaments, buy in tournaments, community tournaments, trivia tournaments, sponsored tournaments, chat hunts and chat games. Lets tack on some more like:

VIP/deposited in the last 30 days from outside of the casino tournaments.
VIP/ deposited real money from the safe that they had left over from 30 days ago rather than withdrawing it and re-depositing it tournaments.
VIP/managed to wager 10,000 dollars before losing the 10 dollars they won in a tournament… tournaments?

And of course I’m sure even that would leave them lots of spare time to answer questions like:
“I didn't deposit since the 4th but I did earn 900 loyalty points in the last 30 days. Which tournaments can I play?”
“Will my withdrawal be processed soon? There’s a deposited from outside the casino tournament coming up and I’d like to redeposit my winnings.”

Of course there’s always the option of just not worrying about what everyone else deposited or whether or not they paid their cable bill or if they could afford real Chinese food or had to settle for a bowl of Raman noodles with soy sauce and just be happy for people when they actually manage to win some real money regardless of how they won it even if it means they get to play in the same tournament as you.

You need help!!!
 

Glunn11

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Location
Idaho
I don't understand why 3Dice doesn't move to a completely playthrough-based VIP model. If you wager $100, it doesn't matter where it came from. You consented to risking $100 and gave 3Dice a long-term cut of that, even though that money was yours and could have been withdrawn at any time. There's no way to abuse that.

It just seems odd to me that they don't do this considering that they already have a playthrough-based comp point system already in place. After all, it's the play that ultimately gives 3Dice their revenue.
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
NY
I personally think that the whole thing should be revamped because of the deposit restrictions placed on the US players. I was a Silver level 1 asteric from gold, now I am a broze level. Nothing I can do about it. I can't deposit like I use to because for some reason I am only approved 1 out of every 5 tries to get one of those vouchers to make a deposit.

So I just watch my status go down. Will I ever leave 3dice, nope, love the place and the people. If that is how they do things, then that is it, nothing I can do about it. Don't really like it but I guess there is nothing to do about it but go with it.

LH
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
Whoa buddy, first of all I never said who deposits that it is unfair if they play the tournaments.

Well, I assumed that's what this meant.

IMO when you play the "safe" game with "gifts" it is not fair to depositors in regards to competition with tournaments etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "game with gifts." I had a 25 dollar gift. I did play a game with it. I played a lot of games with it. That's how it became 100 dollars. Then I put it in the safe. I could have taken it out of the casino. I didn't.

Then I found out the new rule is if you don't take it out of the casino and redeposit it, it does not count toward your vip. It's no longer "deposited" money.

You posted on the 3dice forum already, so not really sure what the intentions are for this thread,


My intention is to tell people so they don't make the same mistake and I decided to do it here because most people don't read the 3dice forum.

Is that a good enough reason... buddy?

I don't understand why 3Dice doesn't move to a completely playthrough-based VIP model. If you wager $100, it doesn't matter where it came from. You consented to risking $100 and gave 3Dice a long-term cut of that, even though that money was yours and could have been withdrawn at any time. There's no way to abuse that.

It just seems odd to me that they don't do this considering that they already have a playthrough-based comp point system already in place. After all, it's the play that ultimately gives 3Dice their revenue.

Actually nobody seems to understand how the vip system works. Go ask a rep for definitive answers.

The only thing anyone seems to know for sure is you have to deposit 50 dollars a month to play vip tournaments and wager $200(?) for a comp point. After that, it's a mystery.

And I'm not even going to bother with that other post. I think someone's been drinking again. :rolleyes:
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I personally think that the whole thing should be revamped because of the deposit restrictions placed on the US players. I was a Silver level 1 asteric from gold, now I am a broze level. Nothing I can do about it. I can't deposit like I use to because for some reason I am only approved 1 out of every 5 tries to get one of those vouchers to make a deposit.

So I just watch my status go down. Will I ever leave 3dice, nope, love the place and the people. If that is how they do things, then that is it, nothing I can do about it. Don't really like it but I guess there is nothing to do about it but go with it.

LH

I can understand and sympathize with you but I think the US government needs to fix that problem. It's kind of hard to maintain a gold vip level at a casino you can't make deposits to.
 

butterflyboogie

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Location
Casino Oblivion
LHofsdal:479955 said:
I personally think that the whole thing should be revamped because of the deposit restrictions placed on the US players. I was a Silver level 1 asteric from gold, now I am a broze level. Nothing I can do about it. I can't deposit like I use to because for some reason I am only approved 1 out of every 5 tries to get one of those vouchers to make a deposit.

So I just watch my status go down. Will I ever leave 3dice, nope, love the place and the people. If that is how they do things, then that is it, nothing I can do about it. Don't really like it but I guess there is nothing to do about it but go with it.

LH
. I can totally understand what you are saying. I was gold and had worked hard to get there, however for about a month there was only one way to deposit and that wallet only allowed a certain amount weekly, so my level went to the pits. I can honestly say that due to the fact that it was not my fault that the depositing options were not available the VIP levels should not have decreased (IMO). You can't deposit if there is no way to deposit. There is a new option now, however I can say I've slowed down there some. Still like it, love the people, however I was a little disappointed over my VIP level. :(
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Hi Guys,

Allow me to shed some light on the situation here. First off, the 3Dice VIP program is entirely
playthrough based. I know it is not the most simple one - but there is a very good reason for that.
When this system was designed we considered all the simpler systems first.

For example, a deposit based system would have a strong bias towards those players that generate
a lot of transactions .. i.e. it would award those that 'play' the cashier more than the games.
So, although it would be really easy and one could say just deposit x and you'll get to the next
level - it is clearly unfair and encourages abuse.

A simple playthrough based system - play X and you'll get to the next level - doesn't suffer that
problem, but it has another issue - one we call winner comping. The amount of playthrough you get
on a deposit is extremely dependant on how much luck you have. If you have good luck you generate
a big multiple of the playthrough that you do when you have bad luck. So a system like this ends
up comping the lucky players - almost the exact oposite of what we want.

So to solve that problem, one needs a structure that compensates for the extra playthrough you get
because you are lucky. To do this we divide the play on your past 30 days in 3 periods of 10 days.
The average playthrough in each of those 10 days is measured. If two of three of those have an
average playthrough above your current level, then you earn an extra star. If two out of three
of those 10 day blocks have an average playthrough of less than your current level, you lose a star.

Say we have two players (named A and B) - that both deposit and play the same amount X, with the
3Dice system, they will both end at the same loyalty level - and stay stable at that level -
if they hit big and generate a lot more playthrough - that doesn't make them more loyal - it makes
them more lucky - and this system will incorporate that correctly. If however one of the players
starts playing more - then it will only take two blocks of 10 days for the system to detect this
and adjust the players level.

The result is a fair system that does not suffer from the winner comping bias - or the cashier-play
bias. It works very well for the vast majority of players and few manual adjustments are needed.
It is however not perfect, especially at the lower end of the scale (bronze one star), it can
happen that you really have bad luck and while it normally just means a star less for a week
or two - for the bronze* players it means no more VIP tournaments for that time.

That's why an exception was added for that scenario. An average lucky player needs $30/month
to stay bronze* - but if you've had bad luck and do lose your star than a $50 deposit in the
past 30 days will also keep you in the VIP tournaments.

When we detected a while back that people were using the safe to generate that minimum deposit
virtually - it was turned off. In short that means that your safe deposits _still count_ towards
your loyalty - they generate valid playthrough like any other deposit method. But they don't
count for that (exception) scenario of the min $50 deposit.

In short it always comes down to this .. if a system can be abused then you will always have
people doing it. So ask yourself the question - are you one of those ? Cause if so then though
luck - there's a method less now - and if not then great there's one way less for others to
abuse you.

Cheers,

Enzo
 

fanihi

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Location
Guam
WOAH!!!

Hi Guys,

Allow me to shed some light on the situation here. First off, the 3Dice VIP program is entirely
playthrough based. I know it is not the most simple one - but there is a very good reason for that.
When this system was designed we considered all the simpler systems first.

For example, a deposit based system would have a strong bias towards those players that generate
a lot of transactions .. i.e. it would award those that 'play' the cashier more than the games.
So, although it would be really easy and one could say just deposit x and you'll get to the next
level - it is clearly unfair and encourages abuse.

A simple playthrough based system - play X and you'll get to the next level - doesn't suffer that
problem, but it has another issue - one we call winner comping. The amount of playthrough you get
on a deposit is extremely dependant on how much luck you have. If you have good luck you generate
a big multiple of the playthrough that you do when you have bad luck. So a system like this ends
up comping the lucky players - almost the exact oposite of what we want.
So to solve that problem, one needs a structure that compensates for the extra playthrough you get
because you are lucky. To do this we divide the play on your past 30 days in 3 periods of 10 days.
The average playthrough in each of those 10 days is measured. If two of three of those have an
average playthrough above your current level, then you earn an extra star. If two out of three
of those 10 day blocks have an average playthrough of less than your current level, you lose a star.

Say we have two players (named A and B) - that both deposit and play the same amount X, with the
3Dice system, they will both end at the same loyalty level - and stay stable at that level -
if they hit big and generate a lot more playthrough - that doesn't make them more loyal - it makes
them more lucky - and this system will incorporate that correctly. If however one of the players
starts playing more - then it will only take two blocks of 10 days for the system to detect this
and adjust the players level.

The result is a fair system that does not suffer from the winner comping bias - or the cashier-play
bias. It works very well for the vast majority of players and few manual adjustments are needed.
It is however not perfect, especially at the lower end of the scale (bronze one star), it can
happen that you really have bad luck and while it normally just means a star less for a week
or two - for the bronze* players it means no more VIP tournaments for that time.

That's why an exception was added for that scenario. An average lucky player needs $30/month
to stay bronze* - but if you've had bad luck and do lose your star than a $50 deposit in the
past 30 days will also keep you in the VIP tournaments.

When we detected a while back that people were using the safe to generate that minimum deposit
virtually - it was turned off. In short that means that your safe deposits _still count_ towards
your loyalty - they generate valid playthrough like any other deposit method. But they don't
count for that (exception) scenario of the min $50 deposit.

In short it always comes down to this .. if a system can be abused then you will always have
people doing it. So ask yourself the question - are you one of those ? Cause if so then though
luck - there's a method less now - and if not then great there's one way less for others to
abuse you.

Cheers,

Enzo
WOW , it took all of that to explain the system!
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Guys,

Allow me to shed some light on the situation here. First off, the 3Dice VIP program is entirely
playthrough based. I know it is not the most simple one - but there is a very good reason for that.
When this system was designed we considered all the simpler systems first.

For example, a deposit based system would have a strong bias towards those players that generate
a lot of transactions .. i.e. it would award those that 'play' the cashier more than the games.
So, although it would be really easy and one could say just deposit x and you'll get to the next
level - it is clearly unfair and encourages abuse.

A simple playthrough based system - play X and you'll get to the next level - doesn't suffer that
problem, but it has another issue - one we call winner comping. The amount of playthrough you get
on a deposit is extremely dependant on how much luck you have. If you have good luck you generate
a big multiple of the playthrough that you do when you have bad luck. So a system like this ends
up comping the lucky players - almost the exact oposite of what we want.

So to solve that problem, one needs a structure that compensates for the extra playthrough you get
because you are lucky. To do this we divide the play on your past 30 days in 3 periods of 10 days.
The average playthrough in each of those 10 days is measured. If two of three of those have an
average playthrough above your current level, then you earn an extra star. If two out of three
of those 10 day blocks have an average playthrough of less than your current level, you lose a star.

Say we have two players (named A and B) - that both deposit and play the same amount X, with the
3Dice system, they will both end at the same loyalty level - and stay stable at that level -
if they hit big and generate a lot more playthrough - that doesn't make them more loyal - it makes
them more lucky - and this system will incorporate that correctly. If however one of the players
starts playing more - then it will only take two blocks of 10 days for the system to detect this
and adjust the players level.

The result is a fair system that does not suffer from the winner comping bias - or the cashier-play
bias. It works very well for the vast majority of players and few manual adjustments are needed.
It is however not perfect, especially at the lower end of the scale (bronze one star), it can
happen that you really have bad luck and while it normally just means a star less for a week
or two - for the bronze* players it means no more VIP tournaments for that time.

That's why an exception was added for that scenario. An average lucky player needs $30/month
to stay bronze* - but if you've had bad luck and do lose your star than a $50 deposit in the
past 30 days will also keep you in the VIP tournaments.

When we detected a while back that people were using the safe to generate that minimum deposit
virtually - it was turned off. In short that means that your safe deposits _still count_ towards
your loyalty - they generate valid playthrough like any other deposit method. But they don't
count for that (exception) scenario of the min $50 deposit.


In short it always comes down to this .. if a system can be abused then you will always have
people doing it. So ask yourself the question - are you one of those ? Cause if so then though
luck - there's a method less now - and if not then great there's one way less for others to
abuse you.

Cheers,

Enzo

Many will see no difference between this, and withdrawing from the casino altogether and redepositing $50. The real "abuse" seems more likely using the SAME $50 month after month, depositing it and then putting it straight back into the safe just to make the exception the rule, and play the tournaments without even trying to retain the appropriate level by making playthrough in the casino. The scope for abuse is just as bad, but it seems that US players have to rely more on the safe to "game the system" than non-US players. This move has only really cut the opportunities for "abuse" from US players, the rest just have to use Moneybookers or Neteller as their "safe".
US players who are willing to deposit, but have no working options, ALSO rely on the safe to give them an available supply of deposits for periods where other methods don't work. These players are also now barred from making their monthly $50 deposit using the safe, yet are not trying to manipulate the system, they just can't get enough deposits to go through to enable them to make enough playthrough, and cannot even get $50 through each month to retain access to the tournaments.

The real answer is to find a deposit method that can be guaranteed to work for $50 per month per player, even if this means limiting the amount processed via this method to keep it "below the radar". If players keep enough in their safe, they can earn and retain their status via playthrough, and would not have to rely on the $50 per month exception.

A manual intervention could be considered for those players who can't, rather than won't, play "fair" with the system, so that an inabilty to deposit via any method does not mean they can't play the tournaments. It would have to be done manually, as an automated system would be easily "gamed" by those seeking to milk the free tournaments, rather than mix free tournament play with casino play.
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
In short it always comes down to this .. if a system can be abused then you will always have
people doing it. So ask yourself the question - are you one of those ? Cause if so then though
luck - there's a method less now - and if not then great there's one way less for others to
abuse you.

Ask myself if I abused anything? The answer is no. I didn't win that money in a tournament. It was a real money deposit that generated over 100 dollars of real money which I put in my safe instead of taking it out of the casino. Nobody I know knew anything about this "method less" until I tried to play vip after losing the 100 dollars and told them. And your explanation verifies my original post. If you have money in your safe and you want to use it to keep a minimum vip level so you can play the tournaments you have to remove it from the casino and then redeposit it back in.

That is not abuse. The money that is in our safes is OUR money. If we have money in the safe there is no reason to deposit more. Why would anyone deposit money into a casino that they already have money in?

It's a little late but now I know the new rules. Next time I won't bother with the safe. Good luck to the US players who can't easily do the same.

Also, if you're going to change the rules that effect how people handle their money in the casino, an appropriate step would be to inform the players.
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Ask myself if I abused anything? The answer is no. I didn't win that money in a tournament. It was a real money deposit that generated over 100 dollars of real money which I put in my safe instead of taking it out of the casino. Nobody I know knew anything about this "method less" until I tried to play vip after losing the 100 dollars and told them. And your explanation verifies my original post. If you have money in your safe and you want to use it to keep a minimum vip level so you can play the tournaments you have to remove it from the casino and then redeposit it back in.

That is not abuse. The money that is in our safes is OUR money. If we have money in the safe there is no reason to deposit more. Why would anyone deposit money into a casino that they already have money in?

It's a little late but now I know the new rules. Next time I won't bother with the safe. Good luck to the US players who can't easily do the same.

Also, if you're going to change the rules that effect how people handle their money in the casino, an appropriate step would be to inform the players.

I agree, it saves arguments with CS, and players not involved in this "abuse" thinking they have been accused of it.

It is a twist on an old and well known "abuse" method, where a deposit is made, and then immediately withdrawn without any play, in order to qualify for something free. In the past, this has been used to trick casino systems into granting a deposit bonus without the need for the player to risk their own money. This happened because earlier systems often didn't add a bonus straight away, and withdrawing the deposit meant that WR restrictions would only start to apply once the bonus has been credited.

The same thinking would work at 3Dice, $50 from safe to casino, and then straight back to the safe. This $50 would never be risked by the player, but the move would give them another 30 stretch of free tournaments, where they could win some free money. If done well, this would allow players to make steady, if small, long term profits at zero risk to themselves.

Enzo has made things harder by insisting that money must come in from outside, rather than from the safe. It hasn't made it impossible, and it is likely Enzo will have to keep checking and manually adjust some players OUT of the tournaments who are clearly just depositing and withdrawing the same $50 every month over a prolonged period.

It also illustrates something I said a while back when Enzo first said the 3Dice system was "advantage player proof", and they didn't worry too much about advantage players. I said they would still look for a loophole, and clearly they FOUND one:p If they can find one, they will be looking for others.
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Ask myself if I abused anything? The answer is no. I didn't win that money in a tournament. It was a real money deposit that generated over 100 dollars of real money which I put in my safe instead of taking it out of the casino. Nobody I know knew anything about this "method less" until I tried to play vip after losing the 100 dollars and told them. And your explanation verifies my original post. If you have money in your safe and you want to use it to keep a minimum vip level so you can play the tournaments you have to remove it from the casino and then redeposit it back in.

That is not abuse. The money that is in our safes is OUR money. If we have money in the safe there is no reason to deposit more. Why would anyone deposit money into a casino that they already have money in?

It's a little late but now I know the new rules. Next time I won't bother with the safe. Good luck to the US players who can't easily do the same.

That's open for interpretation - your last actual deposit was well over a month ago - you didn't withdraw on that. Since then you've only played (many) tourneywins and gifts from other players (which were also tourney wins). The safe withdraw you speak of was won on one of those - not on an actual deposit. Had I implemented this rule earlier you would have had no safe withdraw to begin with - instead you would have lost your VIP status at the beginning of the month which in this case would have been much more fair. (A bronze* player that doesn't deposit or generate enough playthrough for over a month is not supposed to retain his VIP status.)

Also, if you're going to change the rules that effect how people handle their money in the casino, an appropriate step would be to inform the players.

This rule only affects people that were trying to 'ride' the system to begin with - I don't feel we have any obligation towards those particular players - they just make our job more difficult and have a negative impact on our community. Every player that's in the VIP's that shouldn't be reduces the odds for legitimate players to win in those tournaments. The safe is an exceptional withdraw method on which we allow ultimate freedom. The suggestion you make that abusers will now simply use e.g. moneybookers instead of the safe is not valid. Depositing and withdrawing to the safe without actual play is no problem at all - doing that repeatedly to an external processor will result in the transaction costs being subtracted - and if we feel its all just a setup to take advantage of the $50 exception - which is in place for unlucky players - then it'll simply result in closure of the account. We have free tournaments that are always open to everyone - the VIP tournaments however are for the players that generate enough play to stay in the VIP system - and we owe it to those regular and valued players to make sure that the same requirements to get in apply to everyone.

I sincerely doubt any legitimate players have been impacted by this rule (we've verified who was going to be impacted before this was implemented) - and even if that were the case, I know for a fact that my support team is quite capable of assessing the situation and make manual adjustments where needed.

Regards,

Enzo
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
I agree, it saves arguments with CS, and players not involved in this "abuse" thinking they have been accused of it.

It is a twist on an old and well known "abuse" method, where a deposit is made, and then immediately withdrawn without any play, in order to qualify for something free. In the past, this has been used to trick casino systems into granting a deposit bonus without the need for the player to risk their own money. This happened because earlier systems often didn't add a bonus straight away, and withdrawing the deposit meant that WR restrictions would only start to apply once the bonus has been credited.

The same thinking would work at 3Dice, $50 from safe to casino, and then straight back to the safe. This $50 would never be risked by the player, but the move would give them another 30 stretch of free tournaments, where they could win some free money. If done well, this would allow players to make steady, if small, long term profits at zero risk to themselves.

Enzo has made things harder by insisting that money must come in from outside, rather than from the safe. It hasn't made it impossible, and it is likely Enzo will have to keep checking and manually adjust some players OUT of the tournaments who are clearly just depositing and withdrawing the same $50 every month over a prolonged period.

It also illustrates something I said a while back when Enzo first said the 3Dice system was "advantage player proof", and they didn't worry too much about advantage players. I said they would still look for a loophole, and clearly they FOUND one:p If they can find one, they will be looking for others.

The only advantage I received was I didn't have to withdraw the money and redeposit it. I didn't "move the money back and forth" for any reason other than to play it. I won 100 dollars. I put it in the safe. Later I took it back out in smaller amounts and lost it. If that's abuse then anyone who uses the safe is abusing the system.

By the way, when I had vip status last year I was told I was abusing the system because my vip level increased due to my safe activity. So apparently moving your money in and out of the safe for any reason is abusing the system. 3Dice created a system that generated higher vip levels with deposits from the safe and counted the safe deposits as real money deposits and then decided doing so is abusing the system.

At the same time I know one player who made very regular deposits, almost weekly and had a steady decline in vip levels and when a complaint was made he was told he should have MORE safe activity at the same time they were telling me I shouldn't gain vip levels from safe activity even though I have no control over what the system does when I use the safe.

Actually the more I discuss this the more broken the entire system seems to me. I'm not much of a gambler anymore. I play the tournaments more to kill time than anything else. The casino advertises right in the cashier "Play free tournaments, win real money." I'm assuming doing this isn't abuse since it's blatently advertised. I also have to assume when the players play free tournaments and win "real money" the money IS real money and the money now belongs to the player. Once this happens a player has no reason to deposit more money if the player already has money in the casino but still cannot play the vip tournaments until that money is removed from the casino and then redeposited. (Under the new rule.)

Also if the player has a vip status and puts his winnings in the safe and takes it out to play in smaller amounts the system automatically counts these deposits from the safe toward higher vip levels yet when I had a string of decent hits that I could keep in the safe and take back out to play at my leisure the casino considered this abuse to the system even though I have no control what the system does.

I'm starting to think the whole system just abuses itself.

:thumbsup: I heart 3Dice! :)

I heart being told of changes that effect the way I handle my money. :thumbsup:
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Actually the more I discuss this the more broken the entire system seems to me. I'm not much of a gambler anymore. I play the tournaments more to kill time than anything else. The casino advertises right in the cashier "Play free tournaments, win real money." I'm assuming doing this isn't abuse since it's blatently advertised. I also have to assume when the players play free tournaments and win "real money" the money IS real money and the money now belongs to the player. Once this happens a player has no reason to deposit more money if the player already has money in the casino but still cannot play the vip tournaments until that money is removed from the casino and then redeposited. (Under the new rule.)

Not at all - like I said before money deposited from the safe will still earn you comp points and thus increase your vip level. Money deposited from the safe just doesn't contribute to the _exception_ scenario where a bronze player has made deposits and played but had such bad luck that he would lose his vip status. Keeping money in your safe so you can qualify for that exception scenario - not cool. Keeping money in your safe to play later - no problem at all - it will retain and improve your VIP level - and you'd have no interest in withdrawing/redepositing that externally.

By your own admission - you're not much of a gambler anymore - and are just trying to stay in the VIP system. Well we have free tournaments - just so we're clear that's not the VIP tournaments, but the ones at the top of the tournament list labeled 'free tournaments'. The VIP tournaments are not free - they are a perk for our regular depositing players. It's our responsibility to make sure that the VIP system stays fair and doesn't get filled up with people that are intentionally trying to minimize their effort with as only goal to retain VIP access - that's just not the idea behind it.

In all this, let me make a crucial sidenote - when I put this rule in place I very much expected some of the people to complain loudly. Allow me to note that this new rule doesn't save me a penny - I still have to pay all tournament prizes - I just sleep a lot better knowing the large budget spent on VIP tournaments is going back to the loyal players and not the ones looking for loopholes in the system.

Cheers,

Enzo
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
That's open for interpretation - your last actual deposit was well over a month ago - you didn't withdraw on that. Since then you've only played (many) tourneywins and gifts from other players (which were also tourney wins). The safe withdraw you speak of was won on one of those - not on an actual deposit. Had I implemented this rule earlier you would have had no safe withdraw to begin with - instead you would have lost your VIP status at the beginning of the month which in this case would have been much more fair. (A bronze* player that doesn't deposit or generate enough playthrough for over a month is not supposed to retain his VIP status.)

My deposit wasn't the point. And I didn't have "many gifts from other players." I had ONE. And I'm assuming if that player was able to send me a gift is was HIS money. Where he got that money is irrelevant unless the casino considers all money in the casino "casino property." The fact and the reality is I had 25 dollars of my own money. Where I got it is nobody's business unless the casino gave it to me themselves. If another player gave it to me or my next door neighbour did it's all the same. It's money that belong to someone else and they gave it to me. I won 100 dollars in real money playing your games fair and square and I put it in my safe. I now have 100 dollars of my own money. And if I had known you had changed your rules I would have withdrawn it completely. I have no idea where anyone gets the idea that using 100 dollars of my own money to make the required 50 dollar deposit is abusing anything but it's simply ridiculous. If that 100 dollars was sitting in my safe or in my front pocket it is still my 100 dollars and tournament play had NOTHING to do with that money.

I'm not sure if you are aware of it but people gamble every day at all different casinos. They win money and they withdraw it and then they use that money to redeposit and take new bonuses with the money they won. Once the money is withdrawn it is not abuse to redeposit it back at the same casino or anywhere else on the planet just because the player benefits from the new deposit. So now apparently if a player wins enough to withdraw 50 dollars and redeposits it at a later date, the vip status they gain from it is abuse because they didn't have to deposit their own money back into the casino? It's starting to look like if any player doesn't have to give the casino at least some of their own money every month they're abusing the system. That pretty much eliminates any reason for a low roller to gamble. You can never get ahead. "I'm up 50 dollars but I might as well lose it because still have to deposit a new 50 dollars to play vip tournaments. If I withdraw this 50 dollars I'll be considered a system abuser later when I make my 50 dollar deposit."



This rule only affects people that were trying to 'ride' the system to begin with - I don't feel we have any obligation towards those particular players - they just make our job more difficult and have a negative impact on our community. Every player that's in the VIP's that shouldn't be reduces the odds for legitimate players to win in those tournaments. The safe is an exceptional withdraw method on which we allow ultimate freedom. The suggestion you make that abusers will now simply use e.g. moneybookers instead of the safe is not valid. Depositing and withdrawing to the safe without actual play is no problem at all - doing that repeatedly to an external processor will result in the transaction costs being subtracted - and if we feel its all just a setup to take advantage of the $50 exception - which is in place for unlucky players - then it'll simply result in closure of the account. We have free tournaments that are always open to everyone - the VIP tournaments however are for the players that generate enough play to stay in the VIP system - and we owe it to those regular and valued players to make sure that the same requirements to get in apply to everyone.

Once again you talk like using 50 dollars won at the casino to deposit the vip requirement is an abuse. You do run a casino. Any money the players win is real money and belongs to the player. Just because a player doesn't win very much or very often doesn't mean what they did win isn't real money. And now you're saying that if a player wins 50 dollars or more they can't put it in the safe and take it back out as they're monthly deposit and they can't take it out of the casino to Moneybookers and use it for their monthly deposit. Apparently when a player wins 50 dollars it's not real money? It doesn't belong to the player? Or is it just a case of the casino not liking the fact that sometimes people win enough to keep their vip status without making a deposit? That's how casinos work. Some people are ahead. Most are not but some people are. And some people use the money they won to redeposit. And those new deposits regardless of where they play count toward the same bonuses and benefits as anyone else

I sincerely doubt any legitimate players have been impacted by this rule (we've verified who was going to be impacted before this was implemented) - and even if that were the case, I know for a fact that my support team is quite capable of assessing the situation and make manual adjustments where needed.

All "players" are legitimate players. I don't think anyone at your casino appreciate being considered not a legitimate player because they didn't deposit every single month.

And now I understand. You went through the players and picked out the ones that won enough to keep playing vip tournaments without making a deposit and "fixed" it.

Well, it's all good. Casinos can do whatever they like but I think there should be a term in the agreement that says you HAVE to deposit 50 dollars more than you withdrew each month to keep vip status. Because if you win 50 dollars and withdraw it, redepositing it is an abuse.
 
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