FOBTS are still at it

[snorky510238]

I fancied a bet on the football today so I thought I would place it in cash at one of the major high street bookmakers. I hadn’t been in for a while and a friend of mine is the manager there. I used to spend maybe in the region of £100 a week on football bets and low rolling the FOBTS. After starting to play at online casinos I soon realised where the better option lay. I know I complain about bad runs etc but believe me compared to FOBTS you have a much higher chance of winning. My friend had a young lad helping him ( decent polite young guy). What was so noticeable is the overwhelming attention I got, being treated like a Vip. He had obviously done his company homework and went through the spiel word for word regarding the FOBTS. I had a catch up with my friend and was actually there for a couple of hours. I was stood at the counter pretty much the whole time and not 1 person brought a ticket from the FOBTS for collection. I remarked to him about the fact and he just laughed as he knows my opinion on them being terrible for paying out. He actually agrees but can’t be seen to do so in front of customers. When I walked in there was a guy I have known by sight for years on the 1 machine. I said to my friend wow I thought he’d have quit playing those by now ( he used to lose serious amounts). Again he just smiled and tilted the monitor my way so I could see the position of play. The poor guy was nearly £2,800 down. He was playing roulette initially and must of lost most of it there. I am not sure if you can still bet £100 a spin or whether it’s £50 now. He was now playing the slots and I thought to myself this guy isn’t even thinking straight I mean he is in a no win situation if he hits a jackpot he recoups £500 and isn’t going to walk away he can’t win. My friend is honest and open about the money these things make. He shouldn’t show me or divulge any information at all but he does. All high rollers are logged win/lose (I knew that anyway) I have seen spreadsheets which you only have glance at once to realise your chances of winning. I left at 12.30 pm at which point the FOBTS had taken £5,356 and there had been 3 tickets collected for £27.40, £16 and £42. He also told me his seniors are thinking ahead and the plan they have put in place to try as hard as possible to convert all high rolling roulette players over to the slots before the max bet is reduced to £2. This is his major priority. How these evil things have been allowed to exploit and rob the public is nothing short of an absolute disgrace. The fact they have done tells you a lot about laws, testing and regulations within the industry.

 

[Jono777]

Awful mate, F*king awful.

This is the reason the Sunday People Newspaper (to name just one) have been lobbying to get the law on these monsters changed (mainly the £2 stake)

I initially believe this did get passed but more recently recall reading either a U-Turn had happened or there would be a (lengthy?) delay in these new FOBT related rules/laws being implemented.

Life / family destroying machines and I've too been there when they're emptied and see the wedge of notes collected, wincing and thinking "poor buggers" as the staff smile and take the notes behind the counter.

Something has to be done but surely these are heavily taxed so I wouldn't hold my breath......

 

[goatwack]

I can't wrap my head around their appeal, at all! So it's basically electronic Roulette with max wins of.....£500? Why do people lose so much on them chasing low payouts?

But as mentioned before, the industry is disinterested in stopping the root cause. So instead of dicking around with pointless SoW harrassments I'd'a thought FOBTs would be first problem to eradicate. But then you don't kill the golden goose

 

[Jono777]

Going back a few years now. I popped into Ladbrokes on my lunch break from work to put a quick mid-week Footy bet on.

A mate at the time was heavily involved on the roulette, asking "what you in for" he replied (as best memory serves although confident I'm pretty accurate as it kind of 'stuck' in my head this story) "Shit Jon, about £500"

I stood observing for about 1/2 an hour during which time he'd tripled this loss!

Finally the machine started to pay back some a few close together £250 - £350 hits, we roughly calculated he was at this time less than £100 down.

As I was leaving to return to work, I said "walk" rather than spin it all off, he said he'd have a couple more spins and do exactly that and I left.

Few hours later and I finish work, decided to pop back up, genuinely for no other reason that to kill time whilst waiting another friend to finish to go for a pint and have a quick nosey at the nags.

Almost fell over as I walk back in and see him stood still at the same machine. I was greeted with simply a red face, an over flowing ash try (yes it was pre 2007) and "Don't ask"

Later turned out he was about 3K down, when almost a few hours back, level!!!!

He didn't (and doesn't to this day) realise the favour he did me as I did not play them for years after this and even now only have a tenner 3-4 times a year if that!

True story and whats more worrying is that I bet (no pun) there are people all over the country with similar stories, only on much larger scales

 

[snorky510238]

Yes you have to assume it’s the “tax appeal” that has always kept common sense on the back burners. Even now when they have had to bow to significant pressure at long last as I understand the £2 max stake will take another 2 years to fully implement. WHY? If they admit there is a massive problem with them can’t they do it with immediate effect.

 

[Jono777]

Yes you have to assume it’s the “tax appeal” that has always kept common sense on the back burners. Even now when they have had to bow to significant pressure at long last as I understand the £2 max stake will take another 2 years to fully implement. WHY? If they admit there is a massive problem with them can’t they do it with immediate effect.

All I can think of is it gives them this time frame to find an "alternative" to replace the revenue they are going to lose, whilst at the same time seen to be doing the right thing

I'd edge my bets toward that it will be the poor motorist who has to suffer yet again, no farting whilst driving or something ludicrous like that!

 

[colinsunderland]

I still don't understand the max stake being reduced. Firstly, who's going to play roulette with a max stake of £2? Secondly, if they reduce stakes on FOTB's why are people allowed to (for example) go onto extra chilli, stake £2000 and lose it in under 30 seconds?

I don't have a problem with the stakes being reduced but considering you could lose £10k on extra chilli in well under 5 minutes, I can't help but think the high street bookmakers are the subject of a witch hunt by the press, and lets face it, at least they create a lot of jobs in the UK, unlike most of the casinos we all use.

 

[snorky510238]

All I can think of is it gives them this time frame to find an "alternative" to replace the revenue they are going to lose, whilst at the same time seen to be doing the right thing

I'd edge my bets toward that it will be the poor motorist who has to suffer yet again, no farting whilst driving or something ludicrous like that!

I still don't understand the max stake being reduced. Firstly, who's going to play roulette with a max stake of £2? Secondly, if they reduce stakes on FOTB's why are people allowed to (for example) go onto extra chilli, stake £2000 and lose it in under 30 seconds?

I don't have a problem with the stakes being reduced but considering you could lose £10k on extra chilli in well under 5 minutes, I can't help but think the high street bookmakers are the subject of a witch hunt by the press, and lets face it, at least they create a lot of jobs in the UK, unlike most of the casinos we all use.

That is why online casinos operate from the locations they do. Bookmakers come under different licensing laws. That’s why WH’s online casino isn’t based in the UK.

 

[snorky510238]

All I can think of is it gives them this time frame to find an "alternative" to replace the revenue they are going to lose, whilst at the same time seen to be doing the right thing

I'd edge my bets toward that it will be the poor motorist who has to suffer yet again, no farting whilst driving or something ludicrous like that!

Hope not that would cost me heavily. Your story of your mate reminds me of the time my mate (high roller) walked in (£100 a spin) and within 20 minutes he had turned £300 into £4,600. I nearly pulled his arm out of its socket and virtually begged him to walk away. Telling me he was in control and only having 2 more spins, a further 20 minutes on he was at the counter destroying his credit card. He went on to lose £6,000 that day and openly admitted to losing £100,000 in total that year.

 

[shadow123]

Only ever played FOBT,S seriously once, lost £300 in 10 minutes, best loss of my life as I
have never played since and never will play again.They are an evil collusion between the
bookmakers and government that should have never been allowed to happen.

 

[snorky510238]

Only ever played FOBT,S seriously once, lost £300 in 10 minutes, best loss of my life as I
have never played since and never will play again.They are an evil collusion between the
bookmakers and government that should have never been allowed to happen.

It was the best £300 you could have spent as if you had won £1,000 you would probably still be playing them now and had to remortgage your house at least once. They are without question one of the biggest scams ever. If the real truth was ever known people would be more than shocked at what has been allowed to happened.

 

[Playford7]

My personal opinion on the fobty is that they where introduced to get normal sports betting folk to have a few quid and get interested, get the more addictive of society to do there balls in...
After that, and the fact they where found out to ruin lives it was to late, as they had converted people to the online casino world that’s booming now....

 

[colinsunderland]

That is why online casinos operate from the locations they do. Bookmakers come under different licensing laws. That’s why WH’s online casino isn’t based in the UK.

Yes but they all come under the UKGC.
Seriously though if you look back at where this came from, it was the media, and I'm really against trial by media in any situation, not just this type of thing. I think it's a sad day when tabloids can dictate law changes and the like.

The addiction and large losses doesn't just come from FOTB's, look at the thread on here recently where someone is quitting cos he lost 15k in a night, can anyone justify why that is better and no problem compared to someone losing £5k on an FOTB in an afternoon?

 

[AndyP24]

Yes but they all come under the UKGC.
Seriously though if you look back at where this came from, it was the media, and I'm really against trial by media in any situation, not just this type of thing. I think it's a sad day when tabloids can dictate law changes and the like.

The addiction and large losses doesn't just come from FOTB's, look at the thread on here recently where someone is quitting cos he lost 15k in a night, can anyone justify why that is better and no problem compared to someone losing £5k on an FOTB in an afternoon?

This all may be true, I consider the FOBTS the gateway that lead people into the bad side of gambling as a person myself that had issues with the FOBTS, I'm in my early 20's and I've seen many of my friends go from having a flutter on the FOBTS whilst putting the footie bets on with the odd quid to doing £50 spins within months, losing everything.

You lose all sense of reality with these machines, they prey on the weak and vulnerable you only need to look at where bookmakers tend to set up shop to realise the corporate greed that's going on here. I would say online gambling is equally dangerous but it's a lot harder for the U.K. Government to get involved with, besides we all know the real reason £2 stakes won't be brought in straight away - Corporate greed and all the tax money the machines put back in the government pockets.

Online gambling is taking steps though, GamStop has improved things for a lot of people

 

[snorky510238]

No of course you can’t justify it and I for 1 think it’s beyond obscene that you can do the likes of £100 a spin on some of these slots. It just goes to show the ethics behind the whole thing. I mean I can lose £150 a night low rolling and easily more if I didn’t have a limit. Therefore someone doing £100 a spin could lose £50,000 and that’s not going to be a 1 off. A friend of mine who is an extremely intelligent guy and a very good poker player managed to win 25k in a live poker tournament. He was a very controlled smart blackjack player also. After winning the money he went online 2 nights later and lost the lot. It totally devastated him he has never really got over it. The problem is just how much say and sway do any of these governing bodies have? Let’s be honest if it makes sense to us it should be first port of call for them. Where huge sums of money are involved there will always be grey areas and things that aren’t made public knowledge for obvious reasons. The problem with gambling is that it is the most expensive drug of all by far. Nobody could drink £10k of alcohol or take that many drugs in one night without dying but gambling its no problem all you need is the money and there are plenty of people out there just waiting to take it off you.

 

[deaconk78]

as a human being you can tell them to collect with a quiet word as you walk past picking up dead betting slips / pens that have been discarded . question your mate . does he let you spend and lose ? i wouldn't / there is a button you can cut the machine off and allow no more. responsible gambling is BS. ask your friend about the league tables that will hill have for bonuses .

 

[snorky510238]

as a human being you can tell them to collect with a quiet word as you walk past picking up dead betting slips / pens that have been discarded . question your mate . does he let you spend and lose ? i wouldn't / there is a button you can cut the machine off and allow no more. responsible gambling is BS. ask your friend about the league tables that will hill have for bonuses .

He works for your opposition to be honest but he told me today there is going to be a massive push to try and get roulette players over to the slots. I wonder how the high rollers will get their fix when it finally goes to £2 a spin on the roulette. I know a lot of players that played £100 a spin on roulette but would never ever play the slots. They would sneak in on the way home from work blow a grand in 10 minutes then probably have to go home to the wife and make up some bs about why they couldn’t go shopping. The thing is for people that have that kind of addiction they obviously have to hide it from the family so playing in a lunch break or on the way home isn’t detected but when bookies roulette isn’t available and they can’t go to a land based casino unless there is one very close it will surely lead them online. Which in all honesty maybe even worse in as much as they have to make an effort to go to the bookies once they realise how easily accessible online is, well who knows where that could lead. Maybe some already play online but most of the ones I know certainly don’t it’s all hard cash. By the way do you have to ask customers for SOW because it never used to be policy but I forgot to ask him that.

 

[slotter999]

@snorky510238 I read your post and most of your posts as someone who just doesn't like games with fixed odds. To complain about one section of the industry for a product used across all sections of the industry doesn't make sense.

In case you didn't know - online is still by some considerable distance the biggest cash cow in the UK gambling sector. People are literally doing their bollocks online in ways which would be physically impossible in a bookies.

If you were king for the day - what would you do about all this?

 

[trancemonkey]

That is why online casinos operate from the locations they do. Bookmakers come under different licensing laws. That’s why WH’s online casino isn’t based in the UK.

Actually this has nothing to do with it... They still have to comply with the UKGC technical standards regardless of where they are based. That's more for tax reasons...

 

[trancemonkey]

My 2p on this... I've made games for FOBTs and to be honest I hated doing the B2 modes. I can't see any reason for people betting more than 10 quid, and even that is expensive.

For roulette I would have bought it down to 20 because that's a sensible amount to pay roulette with. Yes there will be some idiots that put it all on one number but there has to be done semblance of common sense alongside the protection.

And honestly I think they will come after online too with regards to stakes at some point because the daily mail has got its wish with FOBT stakes... Although it's easier to do checks and balances online ... I.e sources of wealth for example.

 

[paul7388]

Rarely go in a bookies these days but when i do the FOBTS are always full. It is mainly people that do not use bookies to gamble on sports. Like the Grannies who go in and put all these irish lottery slips on then spend ages on FOBTS. But then again they would spend all day in a shop blowing their pension on scratchcards .

Had a brief spell playing these machines man years ago when they first came out. Only because used to be in bookies after work for a while and they took the puggies away that i used to throw the odd tenner in.

To be honest i was never deeply into them. And i think i ended up quite a bit in profit from the short time using them. I have never been a roulette player but pals were playing it and i liked the machine in Laddies. Guess it was the buzz of knowing every number the ball would land on as soon as you pressed spin. Not sure if it still does it but you knew if screen went black for couple of seconds it was number 13 or 22. If the screen started on 31 you knew it was 8 etc. Think we knew at the time just about every number that was coming in once you hit spin. Obviously couldn't help you win tho lol.

Anyway like i say i got bored quick prefer online slots. But did on several occasions win several hundred from the ten or 20 i started with. Best was £900 the week before christmas.

But then again i had my system i used and stuck to. Yes i said system lol. Not a system guaranteed to win just the way i played it.

I used to watch people throw chips everywhere thinking why. If it hits a winning number you still won't win much. So i went stupid betting like that. Bet for fun.

If i had £20 i was putting in it would cover 4 bets lose and walk away. But knowing if i hit a few numbers i would be in profit. Used to bet like 50p on 8 and 25p split on 8 and 4 joining numbers. 50p on 0 and 25p on 0 and split on 1 2 3 with 0. then the rst up to a fiver on other numbers.

Any number cam in put slightly more on 0 and 8 and surrounding. Some days lost right away and left it. Other days you could hit 0 first spin. Bump up stakes and go on a roll lol. Mind playing for ages and kept getting a good run. Had 0 about 4 times and other numbers kept going well.

By time 8 hit i had about 7 pound on it and was a few hundred in profit before it hit. Then next spin 0 came in again lol and 2 spins later after doubling up again on 8 it hit again. Took me over a grand from 20 i started with. Lost next few spins then left with £900.

Had other fun times but not as much. But then the machines seemed to change. More slots started appearing. People stopped using them for fun and they were always busy . Used to watch people starting to bet big money. One guy used to sit playing all sorts on just 3 numbers. Used to watch him leave machine and get someone to watch it while he went to cash machine outside. Then he'd go again elsewhere for more money. This was before you could put bank cards in actual machine. Seriously who allowed that. Felt sorry for him.

Anyway like i said when they first came out they were a fun novelty. People that used to spend a few quid in the slot machine used them for fun. Then they started turning into these money grabbing machines.

But seriously if someone wants to gamble they will. I watch old grannies in the local shop blowing their pensions on a Monday morning. Talk about the amount you can spin at one time on FOTB'S. People can lose just as quick in many ways. Who the hell invented £10 scratchcards. I see people buying them in shop. They can hardly get away from counter and their hands are shaking as they scratch them as quick as they can before rushing back for more. It repeats till no money left.

Even see a guy that spends most his money on them. He doesn't even bother looking at the cards anymore except to scratch the bit with the code and sticks it in the self terminal that tells if its a winning card. Really makes me feel so sorry for them but their lifes i guess.

 

[snorky510238]

@snorky510238 I read your post and most of your posts as someone who just doesn't like games with fixed odds. To complain about one section of the industry for a product used across all sections of the industry doesn't make sense.

In case you didn't know - online is still by some considerable distance the biggest cash cow in the UK gambling sector. People are literally doing their bollocks online in ways which would be physically impossible in a bookies.

If you were king for the day - what would you do about all this?

Ok can you just explain how people can spend money online which would be physically impossible in a bookies. This is the way I see it personally and this is not just something I have dreamt up. It’s an analysis of what I think goes on after nearly 20 years of study. IMO like it or not you are not on a level playing field everyday. In as much as games follow patterns, blow hot and cold and other abnormalities which don’t appear to be random. If that’s the way it has to be then fine as long as all players are made aware that’s how it works and not led into thinking it’s otherwise. My problem with FOBTS v online casinos is the percentage payout. I low rolled FOBTS for a long period of time and found it virtually impossible to have a decent winning day ever. Online I have far more winning days and big hits. Infact the 2 aren’t even comparable in that respect. I would never trust any table games with software either. The main problem I think is the industry is to big to control properly. Let’s just take H&S for example they go around a factory spot a few things that need correcting job done. As someone who has worked there for a while you know of god knows how many other things they didn’t spot. I would suggest it would be nigh on impossible to checkout a casino to the degree most of us would consider acceptable because there are so many loopholes/grey areas/ways of adjusting things. Again take the guy who lost 15k the other evening this is just one instance we heard about because he wasn’t afraid to post it. There without question will be thousands of similar and much worse cases we don’t hear about. These casinos are there to take your money and they don’t care how. I would assume that incident was way outside his normal gambling practice (although I am guessing). If so wouldn’t you think some measure may have been put in place or some action taken if the casino really cared when someone is obviously doing something harmful to themselves. I know he wouldn’t have been happy at the time but he would of thanked them a day later. If I were king for a day well I would certainly lower the max bet online. There would be a max amount a player could deposit in one day. I would prevent casinos from being allowed to have more than say 4 sister sites. Any casino not fully complying with all mandatory terms would be closed. Payouts would have to made within 24 hours max. To be honest you could go ever. These are only my opinions and some of them maybe wrong but I am sure about one thing not all of them are.

 

[slotter999]

@snorky510238 So to summarise if you were king for the day you would :-

Reduce maximum stakes online.
Limit the amount a player can deposit online in a single day.
Limit the number of sister brands for online casinos.
Enforce withdrawals being processed within 24hrs.

What would you do about the FOBTs? Enforce a minimum RTP? Enforce a maximum stake?

And I should clarify my point re: physically impossible to do amounts in a bookies. I meant impossible to lose equivalent amounts in a single session in a bookies Vs online. The single worst ever session EVER on a FOBT was 15k over a 13hr session playing max stake every spin. This is after god knows how many years they've been in operation. Compare that to online and a 15k loss doesnt even come close. I know at least one person that's done more than that amount in 1hr online.

If the stuff you mentioned about FOBTs not being random is your real problem then this is just a restatement of your very entrenched views and nothing will ever change your mind.

 

[snorky510238]

@snorky510238 So to summarise if you were king for the day you would :-

Reduce maximum stakes online.
Limit the amount a player can deposit online in a single day.
Limit the number of sister brands for online casinos.
Enforce withdrawals being processed within 24hrs.

What would you do about the FOBTs? Enforce a minimum RTP? Enforce a maximum stake?

And I should clarify my point re: physically impossible to do amounts in a bookies. I meant impossible to lose equivalent amounts in a single session in a bookies Vs online. The single worst ever session EVER on a FOBT was 15k over a 13hr session playing max stake every spin. This is after god knows how many years they've been in operation. Compare that to online and a 15k loss doesnt even come close. I know at least one person that's done more than that amount in 1hr online.

If the stuff you mentioned about FOBTs not being random is your real problem then this is just a restatement of your very entrenched views and nothing will ever change your mind.

Yes I see what you meant about the amounts it’s possible to lose FOBTS v online. Like I said if there is a lot of things that need changing/looking at more in depth but listing them all is pointless as it’s all hypothetical. Just out of interest what would be your guesstimate on the number of self excluded players at a bookmakers v casinos percentage wise. As regards the random part you are right I will never change my mind.

 

[TheAddict]

These days you have to be a ruthless rude bastard to even realize the rtp on fobt roulette by insisting people F off when they reach over and press a number for you, hit it, and demand a % of the winnings for their skillz.