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Non-Bonus Complaint Firstwebcasino not using a simple RNG

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by Spikey, Jun 17, 2008.

    Jun 17, 2008
  1. Spikey

    Spikey Dormant account

    Computer Programmer
    Adelaide Australia
    I checked out the keno payouts at a casino called Firstwebcasino.

    I've played keno jackpots for a long time and have a spreadsheet that I load pay tables into to tell me the house percentage.

    Well the return to player at All Slots is a whopping 116%. Would be fantastic if I believed it. This is the first time ever that I've seen a pay table return over 100%.

    I emailed them and asked them how this can be. The did respond once with just a "Our RNG is fair", but it didn't have any technical backing or really any answer as to how their paytable can return over 100%. So I emailed again asking for more technical clarification but they haven't responded in over a week, so I'm going to assume they aren't going to.

    Here is a cut and paste of my email to them. ...
    Dear Tiffany/Suzanna/firstwebcasino,

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    Unfortunately though, I'm not going to go away until I resolve this because the figures haven't changed and they still don't add up. The following is the table of keno probabilities that I have copied off my spreadsheet. With your payout structure used the EV comes out to $1.16 for every dollar spent.

    8 spots chosen... Combinations Probability Payout FirstWebCasino EV
    0 2558620845 0.08827 0
    1 7724138400 0.26646 0.5 0.133232
    2 9512133400 0.32815 0.5 0.164073
    3 6226123680 0.21479 1 0.214786
    4 2362591575 0.08150 6 0.489022
    5 530546880 0.01830 6 0.109816
    6 68605200 0.00237 19 0.044968
    7 4651200 0.00016 19 0.003049
    8 125970 0.00000 720 0.003129
    Total 28987537150 1.162074

    Now I can't see that I have made any mistake, and whilst I haven't played at your casino yet, I refuse to believe that you are paying back 116%.

    So either there is a mistake in your payout structure that you have given me, or your RNG is not random and favours the house, or you are going to go broke when I start playing keno at your casino that is paying out too much.

    I really need to clarify which one of the above 3 it is.

    Also, I don't mind if you take a bit longer to answer my query, it is a complicated thing and will take some time to check by your engineers. I would like the correct answer, not a quick one. I am very happy that you answering me.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: firstwebcasino
    To: Mikey
    Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 3:49 PM
    Subject: First Web Casino Customer Service - Your Query

    Dear Michael,

    Thank you for contacting First Web Casino regarding your query.

    First of all, I would like to apologize for the delay in answering your email. The response to a number of our recent promotions has been bigger than we expected and as a result, our reply times are longer than usual.

    Please bear with us as we work to get our service levels back to the high standard First Web Casino is known for.

    As per your query, I would like to assure you that the outcomes of all our casino gamed are determined by a Random Number Generator, which has passed thorough testing for fairness, and that we cannot influence the outcome of any game for the benefit of our players or the house.

    The payout percentage on our website are the correct ones and for the full rules and payout schedule, please click on the link below.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    On our casino we make every effort to make every players experience at our casino as enjoyable and fair as possible, however, everything depends on the players luck.

    Should you have any additional questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact our Customer Service Desk on the toll-free numbers listed below. We are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for your convenience.

    Best Regards,

    On Behalf of Suzanna.

    First Web Casino Customer Service
    A Jackpot Factory Casino
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Call us toll-free 24 hours a day (in English only) from the following countries:
    United States 1-866-251-2234
    Canada 1-888-328-4011
    United Kingdom 0-800-917-4617
    Australia 1-800-805-602

    France: 0-800-909-481
    Germany 0-800-181-0449

    Italy 0-800-788-826
    Spain 0-900-981-805

    or email us at This email is not visible to you.
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    Central America

    ----Original Message----
    From: Mikey
    To: This email is not visible to you.
    Subject: Keno payouts [ConversationID: 0e0902ad-7f0a-4322-8ab7-ee511743b80b]


    I was browsing your site and checked out the keno payouts as I am interested in playing keno.

    I copied the following text from your site...
    a.. If you select 8 numbers, and 1 or 2 are picked, you win half your bet. If 3 are drawn, you win your bet. For 4 matches, you win 6-times your bet. For 5 out of 8, you win 6-times your bet; 6 out of 8, you win 19-times your bet. For 7 matches, you win 19-times your bet. If all 8 out of 8 are picked, you win 720-times your bet. "

    I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to tell me the return to player, and it gave me a whopping 116%. Your casino is the first ever to return more than 100% that I have come across.

    Now I think you wouldn't now be surprised that it raises some suspicions in me, as casinos don't pay ba! ck more than 100% of turnover very long before they go out of business.

    It seems to suggest that your casino is not using a simple random number generator, but is deliberately not picking the numbers that I select so that you will make money.

    Would you please tell me what is going on and how a pay table can give back more than 100%. Maybe the payout schedule on your site is not the correct payouts, which is probably the simplest explanation.



    I'm sure someone smart out there can verify my figures.

    Don't know what to do though. I'm very interested on how they can produce that pay table though.
  2. Jun 17, 2008
  3. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Did you check the actual payouts from the game itself? Because at All Slots casino I get:

    1 & 2 hits - 0.5
    3 hits - 1
    4 hits - 3
    5 hits - 6
    6 hits - 19
    7 hits - 90
    8 hits - 720

    These are default payouts across all MG casinos and the return percentage is 92.90% which you can verify.

    The best payout is with 13 picks by the way.
  4. Jun 17, 2008
  5. gerilege

    gerilege Meister Member PABnorogue PABrogue

    I believe that there is a copy&paste error in the rule description under You must register/login in order to see the link. for 4 and 7 correct picks. As said above, a cross-check with the paytable in the real casino game could solve the mistery.
  6. Jun 18, 2008
  7. Spikey

    Spikey Dormant account

    Computer Programmer
    Adelaide Australia
    I didn't actually download the casino and check the payouts. I do suspect that the text was wrong on their webpage, but the response I got from them as you can see above is that it is correct.

    I'm reasonably sure that the information on their website that I cut and paste into the email is wrong, but still, I really would expect the support people to check. What more could I have done?

    I can only wonder what level of service will I get later when I have a missing money query.
  8. Jun 18, 2008
  9. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    So, you didn't even bother to download the casino and check the payouts yourself but decided to complain here instead, and make me check the correct payouts for you?

    It is normal that casinos have completely wrong information on their webpages and the e-mails they send. It is also normal that they don't care to correct these errors. I usually know all answers better than the casino customer support so I don't need to ask them anything.
  10. Jun 20, 2008
  11. Spikey

    Spikey Dormant account

    Computer Programmer
    Adelaide Australia
    I don't know that I really wanted some other payouts that they actually give. What I want is the payouts that they advertised on their website and an assurance that the RNG isn't swayed.

    Is that too much to ask? A game with payouts advertised that they assure me in an email are correct.

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